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Your local beat cop sees you OC every day, today youre covered!

1245A Defender

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every day at 9am you OC to starbucks. every day your local beat cop comes infor his coffee too.

he always sees you are OC, and gives a head nod to you, but since he knows your legal, he says nothing.

today its cold and rainy, so youre wearing your over coat, it covers your gun completely.

so now youre CC, with your CPL in your pocket.

he is curious; does he have a right to demand your CPL? to ask if youre armed?

do you have to display? do you have to answer?
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
every day at 9am you OC to starbucks. every day your local beat cop comes infor his coffee too.

he always sees you are OC, and gives a head nod to you, but since he knows your legal, he says nothing.

today its cold and rainy, so youre wearing your over coat, it covers your gun completely.

so now youre CC, with your CPL in your pocket.

he is curious; does he have a right to demand your CPL? to ask if youre armed?

do you have to display? do you have to answer?

I am not a lawyer.

One thing to rememberabout the law is that there are lots of sets of circumstances that have never been to court. I'm betting this is one.

I'm thinking it will just depend on the cop.

In a perfect world, I would think that previous OC without something more, like a bulge, would not be enough to justify a Terry Stop.

However, the cop can go fishing. I think most states requirea person to show their CCW permit if demanded by a cop. So, he just walks up and demands your CCW permit as a fishing trip. Even if he's got no idea whether you are CCing, you would have to exhibit the CCW if you are carrying, I should think.

Also, some states require you to notify. So, as a fishing trip, he just comes over and starts talking to you. If you don't notify, he can just ask. Are you going to lie? What if he did see a bit of a bulge?What if he only thought he saw a bulge? What if you lie or refuse to answer, and he notices some slight apprehension in your eyes? I cannot recall the case, but I believe I have read a court case where the addition of nervousness contributed enough to be sufficient reasonable suspicion for a Terry Stop.

What if he just lies about seeing a bulge? After he pats you down and finds the gun, its pretty much your word against his.

I think it will depend on the cop.
 

Citizen

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cynicist wrote:
No. He has no RAS.
Simply knowing that someone carries a gun and then seeing them without a gun is NOT RAS.

Its a nice idea, but its not you and I who get to decide whether RAS exists. Its the courts, after the fact. Here is a quote from Terry vs Ohio that gives a hint in that direction:

We need not develop at length in this case, however, the limitations which theFourth Amendmentplaces upon a protective seizure and search for weapons. These limitations will have to be developed in the concrete factual circumstances of individual cases.

If a court has not already decided it, or something clearly applicable, its up for grabs.

I'm betting there is no case law on this set of circumstances.
 

1245A Defender

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Citizen wrote:
I am not a lawyer.
that right you are not a lawyer! this is a technical question about washington state law!

One thing to rememberabout the law is that there are lots of sets of circumstances that have never been to court. I'm betting this is one.

I'm thinking it will just depend on the cop.
the law doesnt depend on the cop, its not what the cop thinks, its what the law is!

In a perfect world, I would think that previous OC without something more, like a bulge, would not be enough to justify a Terry Stop.
what does a bulge, have to do with a terry stop? do you even know what terry says? do you even know what RAS is?

However, the cop can go fishing. I think most states requirea person to show their CCW permit if demanded by a cop. So, he just walks up and demands your CCW permit as a fishing trip. Even if he's got no idea whether you are CCing, you would have to exhibit the CCW if you are carrying, I should think.
i doesnt matter, what you should think!

Also, some states require you to notify. So, as a fishing trip, he just comes over and starts talking to you. If you don't notify, he can just ask. Are you going to lie? What if he did see a bit of a bulge?What if he only thought he saw a bulge? What if you lie or refuse to answer, and he notices some slight apprehension in your eyes? I cannot recall the case, but I believe I have read a court case where the addition of nervousness contributed enough to be sufficient reasonable suspicion for a Terry Stop.
we dont have a notify law, nor a stop and ID law in washington! we dont have to answer questions unless there is an investigation of a crime! the case youre referring to is state v averino. there was alot more than nervousness going on there!

What if he just lies about seeing a bulge? After he pats you down and finds the gun, its pretty much your word against his.
he wont be patting me down unless he has RAS of a crime, and reason to believe that i, am armed and presently dangerous!

I think it will depend on the cop.

its fun to read about the trials and tribbulations of the folks in other states, i read ca, or, nv ak, id and dc. but its insane for you to try to advise about specific state law, espessially if you havent studied up!

but i do thank you for stopping by, take some time and concider this situation, and the implications to your 2,4,and 5 A right in your state
 

Johnny Law

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
every day at 9am you OC to starbucks. every day your local beat cop comes infor his coffee too.

he always sees you are OC, and gives a head nod to you, but since he knows your legal, he says nothing.

today its cold and rainy, so youre wearing your over coat, it covers your gun completely.

so now youre CC, with your CPL in your pocket.

he is curious; does he have a right to demand your CPL? to ask if youre armed?

do you have to display? do you have to answer?
If he sees you/knows you carry, why in the world would he give a rip if you are cc?
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
SNIP its fun to read about the trials and tribbulations of the folks in other states, i read ca, or, nv ak, id and dc. but its insane for you to try to advise about specific state law, espessially if you havent studied up!

but i do thank you for stopping by, take some time and concider this situation, and the implications to your 2,4,and 5 A right in your state

Why is it insane? You've got a point, to a point. But I wouldn't go so far as to say insane. Its kind of a pointless attack that tends to shut down sincere attempts to help.

Actually, it shouldn't be all that hard for you to answer your own questions. I'm not criticizing you for not having done so. I'm suggesting the answers should be really easy to find.

Does your CCW statute require you to notify? Does it require you to show your CCW if demanded?

As to the question about having a right to ask you a question, the courts have long held that it is not a violation of the 4A for police to ask people consensual questions.
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
cynicist wrote:
No. He has no RAS.
Simply knowing that someone carries a gun and then seeing them without a gun is NOT RAS.
thank you! its short and sweet, and true!
It occurs to me that I earlier answered a question that wasn't asked. I went off into Terry Stops and detentions when that wasn't really what was asked.

I'm betting that doing a CPL check is not a Terry Stop. I'm also betting that RAS has nothing to do with it.

Detaining you,searching you for the concealed gun, would be. Terry vs Ohio and dependent case law would apply.

I think it will all hinge on whether the CCW statute in your state requires you toshow upon demand and whether you are required to notify.
 

Citizen

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Found it easy enough.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

The statute does not require the LEO to first have RAS before demanding the CPL, like for example, a stop-and-identify statute might.

Unless there is case law saying the LEO needs RAS to demand a CPL,I'm thinking it would be smart to exhibit it.
 

1245A Defender

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Citizen wrote:
Found it easy enough.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

The statute does not require the LEO to first have RAS before demanding the CPL, like for example, a stop-and-identify statute might.
i told you before, we dont have "stop and identify"!
i told you before, we dont have "notify".

Unless there is case law saying the LEO needs RAS to demand a CPL,I'm thinking it would be smart to exhibit it.

yea i knew that. see my thread about fishing for ID, CPL 4 and 5 A rights also see kolender v lawson and state v peters. these cases hold that without RAS for the stop, a license can not be demanded.

its seem that my questions about our rights get alot of folks trying to justify LEO intrusion into our lives, instead of trying to justify our right to privacy, to just be left alone!
 

1245A Defender

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Mainsail wrote:
Again:

"Officer, are you detaining me?"

If NO: "Have a nice day officer."

If YES: "For suspicion of what crime are you detaining me?"

thank you! its short, and sweet, and true!

being covered on the rainy day, and therfore CC, would be even less RAS than the OC, the cop was allready used to.
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Found it easy enough.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.050

The statute does not require the LEO to first have RAS before demanding the CPL, like for example, a stop-and-identify statute might.
i told you before, we dont have "stop and identify"!
i told you before, we dont have "notify".

Unless there is case law saying the LEO needs RAS to demand a CPL,I'm thinking it would be smart to exhibit it.

yea i knew that. see my thread about fishing for ID, CPL 4 and 5 A rights also see kolender v lawson and state v peters. these cases hold that without RAS for the stop, a license can not be demanded.

its seem that my questions about our rights get alot of folks trying to justify LEO intrusion into our lives, instead of trying to justify our right to privacy, to just be left alone!
So, what is your point in this thread?

Are you trying to gin up support for rights?

Are you trying to figure out your own tactics?

Just start an argument?

While criticizing me for trying to help, you did not do the one thing you could have very easily done--look up whether you have to exhibit the CPL upon LEO demand?

In fact you seem to have gone out of your way to criticize the points in my post that you could, without bothering to acknowledge the one point about exhibiting a CPL upon LEO demand and that the statute requires no RAS of the LEO.
 

1245A Defender

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Citizen wrote:
its seem that my questions about our rights get alot of folks trying to justify LEO intrusion into our lives, instead of trying to justify our right to privacy, to just be left alone!

So, what is your point in this thread?

Are you trying to gin up support for rights?

Are you trying to figure out your own tactics?

Just start an argument?

In fact you seem to have gone out of your way to criticize the points in my post that you could, without bothering to acknowledge the one point about exhibiting a CPL upon LEO demand and that the statute requires no RAS of the LEO.
every one of my threads is designed to explore the limits of our right to resist unlawful intrusion of LEO into our rights under the constitution.

knowing the specific RCWs, and the right case law can ward off capritious and unlawful actions by overzealous LEOs.

its a fact, i already knew, the CPL says you must display! but in the america i live in, a cop cannot "demand"a license for anything without RAS!

again i want to thank you for "trying to help", unfortunatly, you have failed! you are free to go.
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
SNIP...what does a bulge, have to do with a terry stop? do you even know what terry says? do you even know what RAS is?
Not really, I guess. The 4th and 5th Amendments arejust my favorite sub-subject on the forum. I've only been reading on it for about two and a half years in the context of learning the fine points of limitations on police and rights of OCers with respect to OC-police encounters.

But why dither around asking me questions that might lead to your embarrassment when it turns out I'm not stupid on the subject? Why not just post it for discussion:

In order to assess the reasonableness of Officer McFadden's conduct as a general proposition, it is necessary "first to focus uponthe governmental interest which allegedly justifies official intrusion upon the constitutionally protected interests of the private citizen," for there is

[align=center]no ready test for determining reasonableness other than by balancing the need to search [or seize] against the invasion which the search [or seizure] entails.[/align]
Camara v. Municipal Court, 387 U.S. 523, 534-535, 536-537 (1967). And, in justifying the particular intrusion, the police officer must be able to point to specific and articulable facts which, taken together with rational inferences from those facts, reasonably warrant that intrusion...

...And in determining whether the officer acted reasonably in such circumstances, due weight must be given not to his inchoate and unparticularized suspicion or "hunch," but to the specific reasonable inferences which he is entitled to draw from the facts in light of his experience. Cf. Brinegar v. United States supra... (Terry vs Ohio)
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
SNIP its a fact, i already knew, the CPL says you must display! but in the america i live in, a cop cannot "demand"a license for anything without RAS!
I have no such information. If true, it would be wonderful news, though.

What I do have is that game wardens don't need RAS to ask to see your hunting or fishing license. And that police do not need RAS to set up a roadblock and check for drivers licenses.

I'm starting to suspect you are conflating legal points without realizing there may be other legal points that fit in between.

Bottom line, if you want to make strong assertions about the law, it is the most helpful to quote and cite your source, a legal authority like a statute or court opinion being the best. This way, others can evaluate it for themselves.

If you have a court case that says an LEO needs RAS to demand a CPL, great. I genuinely would love to hear it.
 

1245A Defender

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1 does he have a right to demand your CPL? no not without RAS ofcriminal activity, orknowledge that you do in fact have a CCd gun!

2 to ask if youre armed? yes, he can ask anything he wants you are not required to answer.

3 do you have to display? i think not, unless he has RAS for the demand.


there really are only 3 questions, they are not dithering. i wasnt "asking you"they are questions specific to my state law.

you could be embarresed by your lack of knowledge of our state law, but you dont embarress me. i rarely offer legal opinion in other states, unless i know for surewhat that statelaw is. to type in a bunch of supposition is insane, rude and useless.

i think terry v ohio is terrible law, but its what we got. the court ruled that the cop got RAS by watching the repeated reconicence trips, sure sign of a hold up in the works! there is no comparrison to my hypothetical situation.

ill be thinking up a new situation to post soon, im sure youll chime in, its good for your post count!
 

Citizen

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2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
1 does he have a right to demand your CPL? no not without RAS ofcriminal activity, orknowledge that you do in fact have a CCd gun!

2 to ask if youre armed? yes, he can ask anything he wants you are not required to answer.

3 do you have to display? i think not, unless he has RAS for the demand.


there really are only 3 questions, they are not dithering. i wasnt "asking you"they are questions specific to my state law.

you could be embarresed by your lack of knowledge of our state law, but you dont embarress me. i rarely offer legal opinion in other states, unless i know for surewhat that statelaw is. to type in a bunch of supposition is insane, rude and useless.

i think terry v ohio is terrible law, but its what we got. the court ruled that the cop got RAS by watching the repeated reconicence trips, sure sign of a hold up in the works! there is no comparrison to my hypothetical situation.

ill be thinking up a new situation to post soon, im sure youll chime in, its good for your post count!

Lets go back to the beginning and start over. Lets dispense with this useless antagonism. It contributes nothing to the discussion; in fact it detracts.

1) What is it you are trying to accomplish with that first post? Just so I understand clearly.

2) Where is it written that an LEO needs RAS in order to demand a CPL?
 
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