Questioned by Officers (3rd OC in Walmart)

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So I went to Walmart in Hartford at Noon today. This time was to do the major weekly grocery shopping. I successfully OC's my first two times ever in the same Walmart the few days earlier. This time I was in shorts and a t-shirt, not looking nearly as nice as I was the last two times as I was in work clothes.

I finish my shopping at about 12:30 and a manager (didn't get his name) asked me why was carrying and holstered and I told him for self defense. He asked me if I was law enforcement or anything and I stated that I wasn't. He said well it is Walmart policy that you cannot have a firearm in our store. I proceeded to say very well, can I get your regional managers name and number. He gave it to me (Conrad Schaefer 262-251-5847, that is his work line M-F) He then told me while he knows state laws and agrees with them, that this is a corporate policy.

I get to the parking lot and see 3 cop cars, conveniently enough parked in the same row as me. I proceed to put all the bags in my car I get 1/2 way through and see an officer walking towards me. He get's within 5yds of me so I know he is coming to me. I proceed to say "Good Afternoon Officer". And he said keep your hands where I can see them. I keep them on the cart and he asks me for my ID, so I proceed to hand him my State ID after warning him it was in my back pocket. He states that he is not arresting me, but there was a complaint of me carrying in Walmart. He then asks to see my firearm so that he can run it through the database. (Two more cops walk up). I let him know it is locked properly in my trunk. I get my keys and unlock the trunk (this is the point where the don't talk to cops video starts running through my head....a bit too late). I grab the case and hand it to another cop and state that the serial number is clearly marked on the outside, but that I will open it if necessary. They open it with my key and run it, of course it comes back legal.

Then the officer proceeds to say that They are not arresting me although some cities such as Milwaukee are arresting. I ask what for, and he states Disorderly Conduct. He asks if I have ran into trouble carrying anywhere else and I state that I have not. He asks that I do not carry again in Walmart. I then ask how it is considered disorderly conduct. He gives me some run down about yelling fire at a movie theater. I tell him that I have already emailed the Senator in regards to the disorderly conduct law. I tell him currently the disorderly conduct law is wrong and should e changed and give him my own analogy of the law. I tell him technically the way you are telling me "If I was walking down the street with my dog on a leash and a neighbor can call me in if they don't like it, and I can be arrested for walking a dog". He says "Right" He says just because that the Attorney Generals interpretation of it does not make it law. He said that this will have to be answered at a Supreme court level as it probably will. He asks me for my phone number, and I oblige. He then asks me if I have anymore questions. I state "No" shake his hand and thank him for his time.

I forgot to get his name in the heat of the moment, but started getting more clear on things I should have done as I was driving. In small cities like Hartford I assume every cop has his/her own car. His car number was #5 and plate# was 3870.


I obviously will not carry in Walmart until I can talk to corporate and the store manager. Any good contacts, besides the regional guy I got? Also I know most of it, but what should I have done differently? This disorderly conduct law seriously needs to be re-written....


-Ryan Hanson

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The Officers stated I was also their first time responding to an OC issue.

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I say this as my intentions, in the same situation i dont know what i would have REALLY done... but anyway.


i dont think he had any right to check your gun... on what grounds?! they cant just go to a range and start running people's guns, why should they run a law-abiding citizens guns. And i would have elaborated on the disorderly conduct after he said you can be arrested for the dog walking thing... because i'm pretty sure it specifies that it cant be coming from a hypersensitive person, and has to be reasonable. thats a bunch of crap

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Never freely hand over your fire arm. Let the police take the fire arm and make it known you do not consent to that or any searches.

You also do not have to give your ID. Giving the officer your name is enough and you actually do not have to do that.

Watch the video "Busted" on you tube and the other videos by flexyourrights.org.

As well as the video titled "why you should never talk to the police."

Do this as soon as possible before you end up in jail, convicted and have your fire arms rights lost.

Educate yourself before you carry!

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Walmart follows state laws, so it is legal to carry in Walmart.

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Rbwhanson wrote:

He then asks to see my firearm so that he can run it through the database.

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What database? Wisconsin does not maintain a database that I know and it certainly knows nothing of my guns. If he removed your gun from your hands then it was impermissibly seized.

You could reasonably conclude that you were not free to leave by their force of numbers. You were detained.

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If he removed your gun from your hands then it was impermissibly seized.

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If the owner gave his consent the LEOs could legally check it with whatever tools they have, just like asking to search your car without a warrant.

When I carry into a store that I might to go back to I try to get something in writing from their corporate offices regarding their OC policy. Here the e-mail I sent to Wal-Mart:

Hello,
I have a question about Wal-Mart's policy on openly carried firearms. In Wisconsin there is no legal method of concealed carry. However, open carry is perfectly legal. I would love to shop at Wal-Mart, but I also want to respect Wal-Mart's right to set whatever rules they want on their own property. Do you have a company-wide policy on openly carried firearms or is there a store-by-store policy that may be different at each Wal-Mart location? Thank you for your time and consideration

Athena

Here's the reply I got back:

Dear Athena, There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally licenced by their state to carry. As a private property owner, Wal-Mart has the authority and ability to ask customers to leave or to remove their handgun on case-by-case basis if it is causing any kind of a problem. Sincerely, Walmart Customer Care For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email.


It sounds as if that particular store manager not only doesn't know what his company's policies are, but he told you that their corporate policy is the opposite of what it actually is.

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protias wrote:

Walmart follows state laws, so it is legal to carry in Walmart.

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We have no written statement of this.

We do have now four (Plover, Chilton, Mukwonago, Hartford) documented cases of Wal-Mart calling the police on patrons who carry. Just like hugh (Nik) asked people to boycott Marcus theater(s) I think it is high time we request boycotts of Wal-Mart NATION WIDE. Just check the threads of the other states, and you will see multiple instances of Wal-Mart's anti-rights policy.

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Athena wrote:

If he removed your gun from your hands then it was impermissibly seized.

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If the owner gave his consent the LEOs could legally check it with whatever tools they have, just like asking to search your car without a warrant.

When I carry into a store that I might to go back to I try to get something in writing from their corporate offices regarding their OC policy. Here the e-mail I sent to Wal-Mart:

Hello,
I have a question about Wal-Mart's policy on openly carried firearms. In Wisconsin there is no legal method of concealed carry. However, open carry is perfectly legal. I would love to shop at Wal-Mart, but I also want to respect Wal-Mart's right to set whatever rules they want on their own property. Do you have a company-wide policy on openly carried firearms or is there a store-by-store policy that may be different at each Wal-Mart location? Thank you for your time and consideration

Athena

Here's the reply I got back:

Dear Athena, There is no policy against customers carrying their handgun in our stores as long as he/she is legally licenced by their state to carry. As a private property owner, Wal-Mart has the authority and ability to ask customers to leave or to remove their handgun on case-by-case basis if it is causing any kind of a problem. Sincerely, Walmart Customer Care For further correspondence regarding this issue, please reply to this email.


It sounds as if that particular store manager not only doesn't know what his company's policies are, but he told you that their corporate policy is the opposite of what it actually is.

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That's more of a reply than I got. I think I will be calling their 800 customer service number next week and pressing for a resolution to this issue as it has now become a state wide problem.

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So it seems as if I should have respectfully not given consent and plead the 5th on any questions. Then what do I do after/if I get arrested? I don't think they have internet access in jail to hop on to opencarry.org

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Rbwhanson wrote:

So it seems as if I should have respectfully not given consent and plead the 5th on any questions. Then what do I do after/if I get arrested? I don't think they have internet access in jail to hop on to opencarry.org

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What to do after getting wrongfully arrested becuase not speaking to the police is not obstruction, and not consenting to an unwarranted search is also legal. You sign the recognizance bond or bond out with cash if required, and contact an attorney.

If you were not driving the vehicle at the time of the stop, you have no legal obligation to give ID, or even say a single word to the police (read Terry V. Ohio)

An anonymous tip or even a identified tip is not probable cause and therefore the police are limited to voluntary discussion on your behalf. I am not going to go into everything right now. I suggest you spend a little more time reading the WI and national threads and following a few links to relevant case-law and educate yourself toyour protectedrights so this sort of thing is not allowed to happen to you anymore.

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i think that it is time that we make a mass call in to wal mart and let them know how we feel on this matter and let them know that we are willing to go to other stores if need be and ask how many times cops have been called on other people exercising civil liberties.

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Rbwhanson wrote:

So it seems as if I should have respectfully not given consent and plead the 5th on any questions. Then what do I do after/if I get arrested? I don't think they have internet access in jail to hop on to opencarry.org

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I cannot tell you what to do as each interaction is different. I have given ID when asked, but that is as far as it has ever gone. What I can say is it will take a warrant before they search my car/home and it will take an arrest before they get my firearm.

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The little rant I have below is not directed at the OP or is armchair quarter backing, Just a suggestion of what to not do, and what to not say if stopped by a store employee or police. Please feel free to add finer points I may have missed.

It is not our duty or legal responsibility to call stores and ask permission to exercise our rights.
If Wal-Mart employees continue to call the police for legal protected behavior, let them do it! the employees that are calling the police on people instead of asking an armed patron to leave the premisesare only hurting themselves.

If you are contacted by a wal-mart employee and they ask you to leave the store, Do it immediatly with no questions asked or saying a single word! This is very important, because if you say anything that is considered argumentative, you could get cited for trespassing. Leave the full cart and immediately walk out the nearest exit!

If contacted by the police due to a MWAG call, KNOW YOUR RIGHTS! And protect them from being abused or trampled. If you were not asked to leave by a wal-mart employee, there is nothing that can be done to you by the courts. You cannot be found responsible if you are charged with anything becuase you left immediatly after being asked to.

Your dialogue with the police is you decision, you are not required to speak! and youcan not be held liable if you choose not to speak. non-compliance when asked questions is not disorderly or obstructing! You have the right to remain silent!! Use it!

You are not required to show ID, you do not need to show the cops your gun, you do not need to answer any questions. I know some people feel the easy way out is by talking to the cops. But they are only collecting evidence to arrest and charge you with something.

They will threaten you, they may arrest you, do not resist or argue. Never ever ever answer "Why do you have a gun" whatever you say will be twisted into something sumding much worse. The really sad part of all this? If your going to O-C, be prepared to be arrested. it shouldn;t be happening, but it is! It is a risk we need to be willing to take to secure our rights. No court in the state has found anyone guilty of breaking any laws when a person is legally armed! they have forced people to plea bargain, But I think those days are over.

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i've heard of people answering the "why do you have a gun?" with "for any law-abiding reason"

I think it would be very hard for me to not say anything and just stand there, even if its my right, i dont know if the awkward feeling would make me open my mouth :/

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Is there any kind of fund set up to help or support anyone illegally arrested?

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Many members have donated to individuals for their legal fees and then the person usually doesn't hire an attorney and fight the case.

There are still members out there that will help if needed.

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Nutczak wrote:

You are not required to show ID, you do not need to show the cops your gun, you do not need to answer any questions. I know some people feel the easy way out is by talking to the cops. But they are only collecting evidence to arrest and charge you with something.

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I want to only slightly take issue with this, especially since not everyone reading this thread will be from Wisconsin.

On the matter of ID, follow your state's law. In most places you are not required to show physical ID. There are some states, like Tennessee, that require a carrier to produce their permit upon demand. So, make sure you know what the law is in your state!

While I'd rather not see anyone arrested, I would prefer someone to be arrested for a bogus Disorderly Conduct, Inducing a Panic, or Obstruction charge than for something more legitamate like failing to show ID that may be required by law.

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I think it would be very hard for me to not say anything and just stand there, even if its my right, i dont know if the awkward feeling would make me open my mouth :/

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It's way more awkward for the person doing the question-asking. If you must say something this is a good awkward pause filler: "I do not consent to any searches of my vehicle, firearm, or person without a warrant. I am exercising my right not to give you my identification, and have no further comments."
Write something along those lines on a note card and carry it around with you if you get nervous (I do, I'm terribly stage fright).

Asking if you are being arrested or detained right away is also helpful. If you are not you are free to go. If you stay you do so voluntarily, although you won't be informed that you have the right to leave.

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You should have locked and closed the car door/trunk as soon as you realized that the police officer was approaching you. Then you should have just stood there not saying anything. Then they would have had to leave or violate your rights.

If they got a call that there was a man with a gun, then you fall under Florida v. JL, which says they cannot search you. By locking and sealing off the interior of the car, you have excluded it from your grabbable area, and have essentially made everything inside that car untouchable by the police. It sounds like Wisconsin doesn't have a stop and identify statute, so you can stand mute before the officers and they'll have to go on their way.

If they search you for your keys then they violate Terry (only an exterior patdown for weapons if the officer has RAS) and Florida v. JL (an anonymous report of a MWAG doesn't constitute a search). If they take your keys and open your car they are now performing a warrantless search of your vehicle (I think there was a recent SCOTUS ruling on this too). If they find and unlock your gun case they are performing a warrantless search on top of a warrantless search. Then if they take your gun and run the serial number they are in violate of Arizona v. Hicks.

Those three cases should be well known by any police officer, and by violating them they open themselves up to civil suits. Qualified immunity will not help them in this hypothetical situation because they absolutely should be aware of the rulings they are violating.

Stay vigilant out there! Don't be afraid to assert your right to remain silent, and always try to keep things under lock and key when possible.