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Thread: Meeting with Attorney Scheduled

  1. #1
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    I have a meeting with an attorney on Monday at 12:30pm to review our grievances. Anyone wishing to join me please PM me for more specifics.

    I expect anyone wishing to attend to dress as if they were attending court that day.

    Anyone else wishing to contribute but not attend: please write a one page summery of your personal experiences with unwanted police interaction, unlawful stops, or harassment.

    Hiredgun, stopped at the bus station: I will be bring your report with me, I hope you can be in attendance.

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    I haven't received any written testimony from anyone wishing representation. As far as I know, this is the first time someone in our group has tried to get legal representation.

    Is it because of the short notice, or does no one want our group to have a legal advocate? Please let me know your thoughts.

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    head hunter had the run in at the bus stop...lol.. I havent had a bad experience in a about two years so i dont have any testimony. let me know what his rate is though and i will pitch in what i can

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    I haven't had a negative experience yet. It does bother me when I read what does go on to fellow OCers in the area and the guy up north yesterday.

    The whole Walmart thing bothers me, so if a customer says that guy(different skin color) over there bothers me, the manager will ask him to leave the store? Of course not that would be discrimination and that is illegal. So why then if a customer complains about me, you or anyone carrying a gun in the open, who is legal to do so is asked to leave the store and put the gun up in car. B.S. That is discrimination, am I wrong? The same goes for the Fair that the gentalman was asked to leave. Is there a law to face your accuser if they make a complaint. Maybe that can be taken to the laywer IB.

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    jdgypsy wrote:
    I haven't had a negative experience yet. It does bother me when I read what does go on to fellow OCers in the area and the guy up north yesterday.

    The whole Walmart thing bothers me, so if a customer says that guy(different skin color) over there bothers me, the manager will ask him to leave the store? Of course not that would be discrimination and that is illegal. So why then if a customer complains about me, you or anyone carrying a gun in the open, who is legal to do so is asked to leave the store and put the gun up in car. B.S. That is discrimination, am I wrong? The same goes for the Fair that the gentalman was asked to leave. Is there a law to face your accuser if they make a complaint. Maybe that can be taken to the laywer IB.
    Not to be contradictory, but you're born with the color of the skin you have (unless you're M. Jackson), but you don't pop out of the womb with a Glock in hand if you know what I mean.
    That being said, when is the last time, in this day and age, that you've seen someone arrested for proselyting or having a MWAB* called in to the LE?



    *man with a bible.

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    It sounds like 2 or 3 others here have had problems with LLE with regard to OC. Personally, I have never had a problem with either OC or CC so I'm not sure I have anything constructive to contribute.

    Legal representation is great and, as individuals, it would be handy to have someon's card in our pocket. As an organization, it is not unwise to explore that bridge before we come to it as well. Maybe part of exploring possibilities you could ask what would be involved in registering a non-profit organization in Idaho and whether he would undertake representation of both the organization and members.

    I assume this guy is pro-2A and gun rights, so invite him to the Meet and Greet if he expresses interest in being available for representation on this issue. You might also show him the pamphlet and ask his impression.

  7. #7
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    Hiredgun30 wrote:
    let me know what his rate is though and i will pitch in what i can
    We'll be discussing pro-bono, and he knew that when he accepted the appointment to see me.

    Ya, I agree with Widescreen. It is indeed discrimination, but it is not illegal discrimination. "Gun owners" aren't a protected class under federal or state laws, at least not when it comes to this kind of stuff. Race, religion, sex, age, handicap, maybe a couple others but I don't have the time to look it all up right now.

    Everyone, thanks for the helpful input. We are only in the exploratory phase right now, and since I do not speak for OCDO I can't get a lawyer to represent it, but he may choose to represent us as a group, but on a case by case, individual basis. I'll let everyone know how it goes, maybe through a PM depending on what he says if I don't want it public.


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    IB, shot you a PM about the going tomorrow. I should be there. Thanks for the invite.

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    jdgypsy wrote:
    I haven't had a negative experience yet.* It does bother me when I read what does go on to fellow OCers in the area and the guy up north yesterday.
    What happened up north? Usually Northern ID is really good about OC.

    ETA: never mind, found it. I would have once been very surprised the KCSD acted that way, but after my oral board experience/ application process with them,illegally kicking someone out of the Fair would be expected.

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    Yep, he was asked to leave. Maybe it wasn't public land. Don't know, but he handled it right. I mean he kept his cool and he now can take some legal recourse if he wishes to.

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    I'd love to hear how this went. Not being able to attend doesn't mean I'm any less interested in the outcome.

  12. #12
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    I went with IB. I think it was productive. I will allow him the honor of posting what went down. It was his plan and initiative, not gonna take his thunder. LOL. Gotta wait.

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    ROFL My thunder? No desire to have it myself.

    But, since you waited patiently, here's the gist:

    He is very supportive of gun rights in general. I'm not certain he knows what to think about us, but he agrees that it's within our rights and encouraged us to have "polite" interactions with the police. The idea of having an audio recorder is handy. He'd like to hear the reason on tape for "Why am I being stopped officer? Is it just because of my gun?" We examined our side, and the officers side and how they would argue it in court. He is NOT a civil rights attorney but referred us to a good one if we need it for criminal representation, or to maybe file a civil rights tort claim. I will be contacting that gentleman just to meet with him and let him know whats going on. He said we may have a case if an officer admits to only stopping us for the gun and nothing else. Especially if the officer acknowledges your right and legality of your actions but still wants to detain you. Be careful when dealing with the police...try to make sure your complying with commands and not willingly offering to give up rights, or you have no claim at all.

    He is going to review a letter I wrote to the officers, representatives, and other authority figures, and give me his opinion on whether I should send/edit it.

    I had the wrong information for the gentleman that got stopped at the bus stop. I need you to PM your name, where the incident happened (an address maybe) and the time it happened. He said the police report from that would be good to look at and maybe bring to the other civil rights attorney.

    He said its within our right to not answer questions if we want, but he thinks we should at least show ID if asked, and if you choose not to do that, at the very least identify yourself. Above all, continue to be polite during an interaction.

    Looking from the cops perspective, the AS (articulable suspicion) is having the gun on your hip. They want to "check us out and make sure we're not criminals". He said it could very well be BS (not his exact words) but it would be something the other attorney should look at. We were just examining how they look at things. From our perspective, they're assuming guilt with no cause but legal activity. Who would win in court?

    I got the feeling Mr. Clark wasn't nearly us up to date on the gun laws as we are. I know it might sound conceited to say that, but hear me out. He knows the courts, how to file paper work, and his specific area of civil law. He is not a criminal attorney. I chose him because I knew him already and he would listen to me for free and hear me out. I also knew he was a former Marine and supportive of gun rights. On the other hand, we put our knowledge of gun laws into practice everyday and live them. He didn't offer an opinion on who he thought would win in court...we only examined both sides of the issue.

    He believes education is important, and while I don't think its my job to educate the police on the law, I do agree that that needs to be a part of what we do. I think that was pretty much it. Do feel free to add to this if I left anything out or you have a different take on things.

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    IB, you deserve credit. You took time to see and schedule to meet with this guy and pass on the info learned.

    Not sure he said we may have a case if the LEO's only contact us for the weapon on our hip. In court it may be them saying they have a just reason to check us, only to see that we are legal to be carrying the gun, ie....age, did we just get out of jail for domestic violence, etc, etc. Now would someone in that example carry on the hip, probably not, but the police don't know for sure, therefore they will use that reason in court. They would find a justifiable reason to say why they confronted us.

    As far as ID and answering questions, your spot on based on the conversation in that office. I think showing ID and being cooperative with LEO during a contact is the best idea. The harder we make it for them the harder they can make it on us. I think it will be on a case by case basis.

    It was said a few times in that office, although we have rights, it will play out a little different in court, it is not always cut and dry, black and white. It is still a gray area. If we remain polite, it will go a long way.

    Glad to have been present today, thanks again for the invite. I learned something. See you Wed.

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    Maybe I took it wrong, but it seemed he wanted to get a statement to that effect on tape.

    I think the part about what the officers would say in court was looking at it from their perspective, not that their reason would be "reasonable" to the court, just what they would argue. I think this is when he said we should talk to the other attorney about it because he may very well have ideas about it that Mr. Clark was not able to speak on due to his area of law.

    Politeness is fine, but I didn't take him to mean we shouldn't be assertive, did you? As in, ask what our legal status is (detained, arrested, etc), ask if we're free to go, is OK to do, just be polite and show your ID if asked?

  16. #16
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    Oh definitely, it was discussed that we should ask why we were contacted, what did we do wrong, ask questions like that. Why do you need my ID, prior to handing it over. Ask if you are being detained. Definitely ask questions.

    What they would say in court is what I think causes the grey are.

    We need to wait and see what the lawyer he recommend says also.

  17. #17
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    jdgypsey, I'm going to write a small thank you letter to Mr. Clark. I'll send you a copy before we get together Wed so you can approve it and we can sign it.

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    This is getting closer to a final draft. I've edited it to reflect my thoughts after todays meeting. I'm trying to be careful with facts and statements. Let me know your thoughts. I would like to send this to all of our local representatives, the attorney general, the police chiefs in Ada and surrounding counties, the papers, and anyone else you think I should send it to. I will still wait to hear from Mr. Clark before I send anything out.


    At issue today is the “open carry” of firearms. The open carry movement is spreading across the country and has grown rapidly in Idaho over the past 4 years. The members of Opencarry.org have chronicled their experiences on a public Internet forum which you are welcome and invited to visit (opencarry.org).


    We have some of the best laws in the country. The people of Idaho are represented by people who believe in freedom and responsibility. I thank God every day that I live here other than a State such as California, where the legislature tries to curtail the rights of their constituents every opportunity they get. With that in mind, I want to thank you, my government representatives, for standing up for us here in Idaho against the tyranny that is taking hold across the county. I'd like to thank the officers in my community who, daily and unselfishly, take the line to protect and enforce our constitution and our laws. Finally, I'd like to thank Patrick Calley, Casey Handcuff, John Dewey, Brian Bodine, and the other officers who know me on a personal level. You have always treated me and my organization respectfully and you reflect well on the members of your departments.


    During the past several years many of our members have had contact with the police. Some of it has been cordial, some of it has not. Today I will only speak of recent events.


    On August 17th, a member of Opencarry.org was illegally detained and disarmed while waiting at the bus stop with his wife. This harassment came at the hands of the Boise Police Department and was initiated because of the simple fact that he wore a handgun that was openly exposed in compliance with Idaho law. He was fully cooperative when he was ordered to get on his knees. He cooperated when they put handcuffs on him. And he cooperated when they illegally confiscated his sidearm and denied his right to self defense guaranteed to us by the United States Constitution and the Idaho Constitution. This man was doing nothing illegal and he gave the police no reason to engage in such appalling behavior.


    On August 26th I attended the fair with some friends from Opencarry.org. We met at the Jackson's gas station located just north of the Western Idaho Fairgrounds. At approximately 5:30pm, two Garden City volunteer officers stopped their vehicles to make contact with us. The interaction was polite at the start. Within 5 minutes, 4 more Garden City officers approached and surrounded us. After showing them that we were doing nothing wrong, I thought the confrontation would end. Instead, Deputy Chief Rick Allen went into the gas station and came back with the manager. When the Jackson's employee asked what we were doing, I responded that we were waiting for some friends and would be leaving soon. I told him we would leave if we were causing any trouble. He told the officers that we were not and went back to work. No citizen complaint was made about our legal activities. The officers chose to interfere with the peaceful enjoyment of our day and even tried to instigate further problems when no issue existed. It is my belief that no reasonable person would have assumed they are free to walk away while 6 or more officers have them surrounded. It was an unlawful, non-consensual detainment.


    Before attending the fair, I was in communication with Patrick Calley, head of security and an Ada County Deputy. We debated at length the legality of the requirements for us to be able to carry our handguns while in attendance of the fair. It was finally determined that they could not regulate the manner in which we carry our firearms in any way, including requiring us to sign in at the sheriff's booth, identifying ourselves at the gate, or showing ID to gain admittance Upon arriving at the gate we were stopped by security and told that we would have to leave. This situation was quickly resolved by calling Mr. Calley. The next day, I received complaints from members of my organization claiming that they were still being stopped at the gate and asked to register with the police and show ID. The security and Ada County deputies only backed down when they realized which group they belonged to.


    It is my belief that there is a systematic policy of stopping, questioning, and sometimes detaining anyone who is exercising their right to openly carry a firearm. At the very least, while some officers “get it”, the local police agencies are failing miserably in their duty to train their officers according to the law. It is these agencies with which I take issue. Although in good faith, it is my sincere belief that the individual officers are acting without proper instruction.


    It is unreasonable to believe that a properly holstered firearm is reason enough to cause alarm or forced police interaction. The officers who stopped me at the gas station were acting solely on their own fears and some unwritten rule that “you shouldn't be doing that.” They failed to use their observational skills and see that we were peacefully engaged in a conversation while sitting on a sidewalk. The other customers at the station also observed us. Their response was to go about their business with the store and ignore it. Why then, without some kind of citizen complaint, did these officers proceed the way they did?


    These are just a few examples from our vast catalog of documented police encounters. Situations like these have become burdensome on our rights to freely express ourselves and assemble. Many of our members feel they have been unlawfully co-hearsed into giving up their right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and their right to remain silent. I believe that in many of these encounters, if we were not as polite as we were, the instances would have resulted in an unlawful arrest.


    Mr. Attorney General, if there is any merit to what I am saying, please make sure this is forwarded to the necessary agencies outside of Ada County.


    Please understand that we have been patient. For almost four years our members have worked tirelessly to foster good relations with the local agencies and educate the public, including individual officers, on the legal carry of firearms. It is my opinion that the departments simply haven't gotten the message.


    Be advised: we will no longer be “calling ahead” to make sure there are no issues when we attend an event. On the advice of an attorney, we will no longer willingly give up the constitutional rights that protect us during encounters with the police. While we wish to remain courteous, we also desire to be treated in like regard. It is my sincere hope that the local police agencies can self-educate and retrain their officers in how to respond to citizens who are legally carrying firearms.


    If any of you would like to sit down and speak with me, I am available at your convenience We would like to see a swift resolution to this issue. Please understand that I mean no disrespect. It is because of the respect I hold for you that I write this letter today. Thank you for your consideration.

    Sincerely,

    **********








  19. #19
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    that is a good letter...

  20. #20
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    great letter, you get your thoughts across on paper really well. Bring it on Wed, I only have one suggestion, will discuss on Wed. Really good though.

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    IndianaBoy79 wrote:
    Many of our members feel they have been unlawfully co-hearsed coerced into giving up their right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure and their right to remain silent. I believe that in many of these encounters, if we were not as polite as we were, the instances would have resulted in an unlawful arrest.
    Sir,
    Your letter is well written and I sincerely hope it achieves the object for which you wrote it. You may wish to consider replacing the word "co-hearsed" with "coerced" as the latter is the word I believe you were looking for in the context.

    Regards,
    AR

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    Thanks guys. I get nervous (getting MUCH better though) when I try talk about something that is potentially polarizing in person. I like the written word much better.

    Thanks for the spelling mistake! I've been meaning to look that up; the spell checker wasn't doing a great job with that one.

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    Something else that was mentioned in the meeting with the lawyer yesterday, IB and I didn't mention.

    The lawyer who we stated is pro-gun asked if we were NRA members. I for one am not. I am looking at some mail from NRA today, I am going to join when done posting this. they offer some good benefits, look it up and decide for yourself.

    He made a good point, they do fight for gun rights, although there is an opinion I am not versed on. They may be mute on the subject of open carry, I have heard that said lately regarding the guy who carried at Obama's townhall meeting. Anyway, they do fight for our rights to even continue to own a gun. If enough of thier members open carry, they may listen to us, or lose us as members. Just a thought, they are bigger than we are and that helps. They are offering a 10 dollar discount to join now.

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    It was that quick, I am now a member. Got a cool duffle bag too, will be a good range bag. Not sure if I am breaking any rules here, I didn't look first. I am not intending to advertise for them. Just thought it would be good to put it out there, in case the thought hadn't crossed any ones mind yet. Last I will say about it.

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    That is one reason I suggested we ask about the requirements to form a non-profit organization. It has worked well in several states (Virginia and Tennessee come to mind), resulting in higher awareness of gun rights and an advocacy/lobbying group for approaching government. NRA can be enlisted and better engaged when they see an active organization focused on issues rather than members just wandering around working on situations where they are directly involved.

    You have to start somewhere.

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