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Thread: Where does this idea come from?

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    I read A LOT on this board and on the Net about firearm laws and the RTKBA. To me, it seems like this whole you give up your right to OC when you accept your CPL license has only flourished quite recently. I don't really recall reading about this except for in the last six months or so, but I am kind of surprised that it seems to come up quite regularly now.

    Where do you think this idea came from and how is it that it seems to be spreading so quickly?

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    The idea has been around a long time. Maybe it's "blue car" syndrome?
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

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    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member Taurus850CIA's Avatar
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    doubletap
    "Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame." - Cort

    Gun control is like trying to reduce Drunk Driving by making it tougher for sober people to own cars.

    Sentio aliquos togatos contra me conspirare.

    The answer to "1984" is "
    1776"

    With freedom comes much responsibility. It is for this reason so many are loathe to exercise it.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    It's called stupidity and ignorance!

    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    I must just not have known its been around for a long, long time. I guessI was just starting to getthe feeling that there is some LE forum whereOC hating, right trampling,MI cops are grassrootin'these ideas to counterthe increased OC message around the state.

    Wait, is that paranoia?

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    I just had words with my neighbor the other day while I was ocing.
    She stated to me the CPL instructor told her she CAN NOT carry open with a CPL. I told her no that's not accurate. She got defensive and stated he is a
    ex- leo this and that. I politely explained not caring who or what he was that misinforming people is wrong and unjust and as a "instructor and ex-leo"
    he should be more informed of the law to do any informing of the people.
    She just kinda blew me off like I had no idea as common joe what I was talking about. Before we parted I asked to get his name, number or email to clear up this misconception but I have yet to get any contact info to contact him to see if this is what was said or how she interrupted it.
    If it is what was said by him then that's a lot of people at one time from every class that will tell others the same wrong information.

    UCWT

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    "She got defensive and stated he is an ex- leo this and that".


    I've said it before, I'll say it again! You don't have to go to school to know the law, you only have to go to school to practice the law.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    conservative85 wrote:
    "She got defensive and stated he is an ex- leo this and that".


    I've said it before, I'll say it again! You don't have to go to school to know the law, you only have to go to school to practice the law.
    +1

    it is my belief that this OC is taught by most CPL Classes to be illegal and feel that this should addressed soon (maybe a special CPL Class Packet-type creature???). I believe that stems from the fact that OC was difficult due to transport laws in the past and CPL instructors wanting to keep the cash flow coming in. I also believe that there are gun owners who have never properly trained themselves and this scares people! A simple 8 hour course will not impart wisdom if there is none already present.

    I have had conversations with those who refer to it as "CCW" and they are not open to "change" most times, not that I have been asking them to.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    (maybe a special CPL Class Packet-type creature???).
    I've thought that would be a good idea for a long time. A lot of CPL teachers would happily give out MOC fliers catered to their students.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    I just had an OC experience yesterday in my hood, and the LEO asked if I had a CCW.

    Of course I felt compelled to Instruct him, or maybe inform is a better word on the new CPL permit. Great Guy My kudos to the Mundy Twp. Police department. He was very professional.

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    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Michigander wrote:
    PDinDetroit wrote:
    (maybe a special CPL Class Packet-type creature???).
    I've thought that would be a good idea for a long time. A lot of CPL teachers would happily give out MOC fliers catered to their students.
    OK! I will take a shot at it and post it as a new thread later today/tomorrow. I am thinking a Myth/Fact type of approach, backed up by MCL info.

    Thoughts???
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

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    I find that a lot of this "My CPL Instructor said ..." comes from poor listening and assuming (yes I mean it as the ass-of-u-me) of what they are saying. If you go back to the instructor and ask them wha theysaid you get a totally different story so I don't always blame the instructors for what some student tells about some thing like this. I have taught many different types of classes from computers to accounting and it seems that I am always having to correct someone about something I have said that they just listened to part of it or just heard it totally different from what I said.

    Once a person gets an idea in their head it is hard to change them, even LEO are guilty of it and the general public for the most part get their information about gun laws from the news meadia. We all know what that leads to.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    It's called selective hearing and I deal with it all the time with my students!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    OK!* I will take a shot at it and post it as a new thread later today/tomorrow. I am thinking a Myth/Fact type of approach, backed up by MCL info.

    Thoughts???
    I think that is a good Idea for the masses that seek accurate information on any subject gun law related.
    Being new to open carring and this great site. I looked here for fact not someones interruption of the law. In doing so I had to look for a long time to exhaust every post and reply to see if I could find what I was looking for.

    Even after. I still had to seek out from the governing bodies for my answers and still waiting for some. I don't want to go by someones take on the law that may lead to my gun rights taken away or imprisonment. If its not fact backed up with attached info from the governing bodies its just he said she said to me till I look into it and find facts supporting the claim.

    So I welcome a easy reference so when someone asks I can point them to a section that tells with information backed with links or emails from governing bodies of Michigan.

    As for my neighbor it could be just that. Her failure to pay attention and ask questions if she is not clear on what was said. That's why I asked for his information to check his standing on this subject before condemning him for not being accurate.

    Being a ex-LEO and now being a CPL instructor making money doing so. I could see now with more people seeing it is within our rights to OC he could be saying this to ensure he keeps making money doing so. Again I don't know for sure but if and when I do I will pass on that information for all to see.

    The first info I received on OC was from a buddy going through the academy. Even though he was a very intelligent and informed guy I still didn't take what he said as fact. It was met with doubts. Thinking there had to be a catch or only certain people could do so without a CPL until I found this site and asked the proper channels if it was so.

    The easiest most accurate information will help the people not informed or on the fence about OC make the best educated accurate choices and not detour them with many different ways of peoples take on the law(s) and what they mean.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    conservative85 wrote:
    I just had an OC experience yesterday in my hood, and the LEO asked if I had a CCW.

    Of course I felt compelled to Instruct him, or maybe inform is a better word on the new CPL permit.
    And it's much more than a matter of semantics. Ifa LEO asks if you have a CCW, he may be referring (or claim afterward to be referring) to any convictions you have for the felonycommonly referred to as "CCW" (unlawfully carrying a concealed weapon).

    If you assume he is referring to your having a CPL and you answer "yes", you've given the LEO probable cause tobelieve you are a felon (which he could rightfully claim you did), and that couldenable him to legally detain and search you in circumstances where otherwise he couldn't legally do so if he couldn't demonstrate PC that you are a convicted felon.

    So, if you are asked if you have a "CCW", "CCW permit", etc. by anyone, it is best tohave yourmind andmouth trained torespond with "I have a CPL (or Concealed Pistol License), if that is what you mean."
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    UCWT wrote:
    OK! I will take a shot at it and post it as a new thread later today/tomorrow. I am thinking a Myth/Fact type of approach, backed up by MCL info.

    Thoughts???
    I think that is a good Idea for the masses that seek accurate information on any subject gun law related.
    Being new to open carring and this great site. I looked here for fact not someones interruption of the law. In doing so I had to look for a long time to exhaust every post and reply to see if I could find what I was looking for.

    Even after. I still had to seek out from the governing bodies for my answers and still waiting for some. I don't want to go by someones take on the law that may lead to my gun rights taken away or imprisonment. If its not fact backed up with attached info from the governing bodies its just he said she said to me till I look into it and find facts supporting the claim.

    So I welcome a easy reference so when someone asks I can point them to a section that tells with information backed with links or emails from governing bodies of Michigan.

    As for my neighbor it could be just that. Her failure to pay attention and ask questions if she is not clear on what was said. That's why I asked for his information to check his standing on this subject before condemning him for not being accurate.

    Being a ex-LEO and now being a CPL instructor making money doing so. I could see now with more people seeing it is within our rights to OC he could be saying this to ensure he keeps making money doing so. Again I don't know for sure but if and when I do I will pass on that information for all to see.

    The first info I received on OC was from a buddy going through the academy. Even though he was a very intelligent and informed guy I still didn't take what he said as fact. It was met with doubts. Thinking there had to be a catch or only certain people could do so without a CPL until I found this site and asked the proper channels if it was so.

    The easiest most accurate information will help the people not informed or on the fence about OC make the best educated accurate choices and not detour them with many different ways of peoples take on the law(s) and what they mean.
    The problem is that there is no section of MCL that say that OC is legal or okay. The reason it is legal is that there is no legislation making it illegal. This is the same reason you are able to wear a blue, red, or brown shirt if you want to, because there is no law against it.

    When these ignorant people try to tell you this stuff, dare them to show you legislation to back it up. When they can not do that, you have proven your point...
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Technically there is legislation for OC. State constitution: Article 1 Sec 6. United states constitution: 2nd, 9th, & 10th. Remember they can't make law that denies or restricts your rights.
    So as you can see thou there is no mcl giving you legal permission to oc, it just may be that there is no mcl because they can't legally do it.

    Oh by the way I don't know of any MCL that gives you legal rights/permission to do something, its usually an MCL that tells you what you can't do. IMHO.
    Thats all I got to say bout that! F.G.

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Isaid that there was no section of MCL to support OC.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I*said that there was no section of MCL to support OC.
    I disagree.

    MCL 28.422
    28.422 License to purchase, carry, possess, or transport pistol; issuance; qualifications; applications; sale of pistol; exemptions; nonresidents; basic pistol safety brochure; forging application; implementation during business hours.
    Sec. 2.

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, a person shall not purchase, carry, possess, or transport a pistol in this state without first having obtained a license for the pistol as prescribed in this section.
    Note that this isn't a concealed carry license, but you need this license to carry a pistol.

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Isaid that there was no section of MCL to support OC.
    Easy there killer() I was not necessarily replying to your MCL post, You said , and I agree, & all I said was simply that there is legislation for OC.

    Now that said, I have to agree with Zig I forgot bout the piece he posted.
    Any hoo

    "Remember I'm pulling for ya, we're all in this together!" :celebrate

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    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    Zig, that still does not support OC specifically, if that is what someone is looking for. You have to use the combination of this and the prohibitions against CC without a permit to come to the conclusion that OC is legal.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

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    I think it's just a bad rumor that's been spread around. There's plenty of them that go around, just like most who think/thought OC generally was illegal, when in fact, as far as I can find, its NEVER been illegal.

    Others include that you HAVE to provide ID to L.E. whenever they ask, and that CO2 is a pollutant
    Rand Paul 2016

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Zig, that still does not support OC specifically, if that is what someone is looking for. You have to use the combination of this and the prohibitions against CC without a permit to come to the conclusion that OC is legal.
    Yes it does. The permit allows you to carry. It does not allow you to carry concealed, therefore it MUST be a permit to carry openly.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    Zig, that still does not support OC specifically, if that is what someone is looking for. You have to use the combination of this and the prohibitions against CC without a permit to come to the conclusion that OC is legal.
    Yes it does. The permit allows you to carry. It does not allow you to carry concealed, therefore it MUST be a permit to carry openly.
    Zig is correct it is a permit to own transport and carry and BC CC is NOT legal except with a permit then that means that this CARRY mentioned must be open.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    permission, not permit!

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