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Thread: Question about AR pistol / lower

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    I bought an AR lower the other day for a pistol build. I thought it needed to be registered as a pistol and the guy at the gun store said it did not. There is a box on the form that said build or parts something other than rifle or pistol. He said that when you finish the build it by default becomes a pistol.



    Anyone run into this?



    They own the store and have built guns for 20 plus years.

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    if its a pistol lower you should have filled out a washington state pistol form.



    if you did not then you have a rifle lower. what he said is not true. as any pistol sold by a ffl in washington needs that form filed out

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    The box that was checked was parts.

    (A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

    With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

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    A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.
    If you have to fight, do not fear death. We will all die one day, so fight skillfully and bravely! And if it is to be that you die, then at least go to God proudly. Meet him as the proud warrior that you are, and not as a sniveling coward. Nobody lives forever.

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    Johnny Law wrote:
    A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.
    You can build a pistol from a bare lower. As long as it has never had rifle parts on it, it doesn't matter.

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    Dr. Fresh wrote:
    Johnny Law wrote:
    A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.
    You can build a pistol from a bare lower. As long as it has never had rifle parts on it, it doesn't matter.
    That is correct from a federal law standpoint.

    I'm unclear on how WA law looks at newly purchased lowers and pistols. I know WA has an extra form that goes to the DOL where they keep records on pistols purchased. (Since the DOL is not an LEA, they get away with it...)

    It's also a big no-no to have 1 pistol upper, 1 rifle upper, and 1 assembled lower. They can get you for short-barreled rifle stuff in that situation. In other words, make sure all of your lowers have uppers attached to them if you have a mix of pistol and rifle uppers.


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    but in washington state you have to fill out a pistol form for the lower when purchased, just like any other pistol. if not then its not a pistol per washington state.



    and the federal form has to state pistol

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    At the start of the year federal 4473 changed and a bare lower is neither a handgun or a rifle it is just a "firearm". The box checked is "other" since it is not sold as a pistol and is just a "firearm" being neither "rifle" nor "pistol". There will be no pistol registration form and bare lowers can now no longer be sold to persons under 21 since only rifles and shotguns are allowed to be sold to people 18 and over. Also you must make modifications to the extension (where the recoil spring is) so that a shoulder stock wont fit on it. Also you can not put a vertical fore grip on it as the BATFE currently interprets this as a AOW even though it clearly doesn't fit the legal definition for an AOW. They are great fun after you've taken the flash hider off, you get around a 14" fireball out the end of the barrel and feel the blast quite well.



    Johnny Law, there is NO law or rule that says a pistol lower has to be marked as such, federally speaking it can never have had a rifle stock or barrel put on it. And you should not MUST have certification from the MFG that it has never had a rifle stock put on it. Some companies put pistol on the lower, some like DPMS have a K in the serial number to show that it was never assembled. Either way this is a suggestion and not required by the BATFE as proven by a letter from the BATFE on January 14 2009 PM me your E-mail and I'll send it if you need.



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    Boo Boo wrote:
    but in washington state you have to fill out a pistol form for the lower when purchased, just like any other pistol. if not then its not a pistol per washington state.



    and the federal form has to state pistol
    You're partially right but mostly wrong with regard to bare AR lowers, he purchased a firearm which is the serial numbered bare receiver, from which he will manufacture a pistol not purchase one

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    a ar pistol can be made into a rifle and back but not the other way around.

    and in washington you would have needed to fill out the pistol form

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    FE427TP. I love you AR "Pistol". What a nice little subgun. I think will build one up in 10mm, with a matching pistol.

    Cool, a winter project.

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    FE427TP wrote:
    Totally off-topic, but that's a nice little collection you have there.
    I see a full-size HK USP Tactical. Is that a .45 ACP? It looks like it. (I'm not too keen on the weapon-light though.) AAC, AWC or Gemtech on there? It looks like there's an adapter for a thread or a Nielsen device adapter, but I can't quite figure out what make it is.

    I want to get an integrally suppressed Ruger MkII.

    Your Ruger revolver looks like a .357 Magnum Blackhawk with a 9mm cylinder for it. Is that right?

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    Boo Boo wrote:
    a ar pistol can be made into a rifle and back but not the other way around.

    and in washington you would have needed to fill out the pistol form
    NO AN AR PISTOL CAN NOT BE MADE INTO A RIFLE AND THEN BACK INTO A PISTOL the BATFE has a letter out on this for almost 9 months now, (same Jan 14th letter) once it has become a rifle it then becomes a weapon made from a rifle think a short barreled rifle, there is NO back and forth between pistol, rifle and pistol


    Wheelgunner
    : thank you sir, i ordered three sequential serial number lowers before the law changed and have them registered and marked as pistols. mostly only good for the sinus blasting noise but fun You might look into Bazooka brothers lowers they have a rough forging that they open enough to fit grease gun mags might be a better start than most lowers.

    shad0wfax: yes sir it's a 45, the light comes off when it goes in the holster, I had to modify a Blackhawk Serpa holster quite a bit to get it to fit the raised sights that come on the tactical, I went with a SWR can for both of them, The 45 can is still around 143 decibels dry, but if I get some water or wire pulling lube they say it goes down to around 130Db it sounds like a nail gun. I have a Gemtech for a 308 I'm waiting on my sheriff to sign so I can send it off. The thread adaptor is just the part of the Nielsen that comes out the back of the can. I highly recommend not going with a integral, the Warlock is a very quiet can quieter than most integral cans from the 80's and I can also put it onto my bolt action 22 rifle as well, after you've shot suppressed you'll never want to go back why not have one $200 TAX stamp and be able to use it on every 22 instead of a $200 stamp for every one. Also you can get some fairly short barrel say 4" or so aluminum uppers for the ruger pistols after you add the can they are close to the same length as the integrals and again you have one can you can share between host weapons. You guessed right about the Blackhawk, maybe I'll take it deer hunting this year


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    FE427TP wrote:
    shad0wfax: yes sir it's a 45, the light comes off when it goes in the holster, I had to modify a Blackhawk Serpa holster quite a bit to get it to fit the raised sights that come on the tactical, I went with a SWR can for both of them, The 45 can is still around 143 decibels dry, but if I get some water or wire pulling lube they say it goes down to around 130Db it sounds like a nail gun. I have a Gemtech for a 308 I'm waiting on my sheriff to sign so I can send it off. The thread adaptor is just the part of the Nielsen that comes out the back of the can. I highly recommend not going with a integral, the Warlock is a very quiet can quieter than most integral cans from the 80's and I can also put it onto my bolt action 22 rifle as well, after you've shot suppressed you'll never want to go back why not have one $200 TAX stamp and be able to use it on every 22 instead of a $200 stamp for every one. Also you can get some fairly short barrel say 4" or so aluminum uppers for the ruger pistols after you add the can they are close to the same length as the integrals and again you have one can you can share between host weapons. You guessed right about the Blackhawk, maybe I'll take it deer hunting this year


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    Man now I'm totally off-topic! Sorry StatTheCat, I'll find some way to get it back on topic...

    I also carry a .45 USP Tactical (full size) in a modified SERPA too. (wrote a how-to write-up about 10 months ago) I went with an AWC Nexus III can. I'm not sure what the dB is. I wish I could have afforded a Knight's... big bucks but quiet. (131 to 134 dB with water)

    You make a good case for 1 tax stamp to serve a variety of .22 LR pistols. You're also correct that the integral ones have quite long barrels. I'll have to think about it before I get one and it'll be a while before I do anyways. I'd really like to get a can for my M1A; it's a loud SOB. It'd be cool to have a can for my 7 mag too.

    ...as long as you hunt with the .357 cylinder in the Blackhawk...

    Oh yeah, now we're talking about handguns again. So yeah, I think you're OK if you build it as a pistol. Maybe document the build for your own peace of mind?

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    shad0wfax wrote:
    I also carry a .45 USP Tactical (full size) in a modified SERPA too. (wrote a how-to write-up about 10 months ago) I went with an AWC Nexus III can. I'm not sure what the dB is. I wish I could have afforded a Knight's... big bucks but quiet. (131 to 134 dB with water)

    You make a good case for 1 tax stamp to serve a variety of .22 LR pistols. You're also correct that the integral ones have quite long barrels. I'll have to think about it before I get one and it'll be a while before I do anyways. I'd really like to get a can for my M1A; it's a loud SOB. It'd be cool to have a can for my 7 mag too.
    AAC's new can just made the Knights can old technology, it takes a 45 to the same sound levels as a older style 22 can, very impressive

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    StatTheCat wrote:
    The box that was checked was parts.

    (A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

    With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.
    Sorry, the box they checked was called frame and after reading the directions on the back #18 it states a frame can be a pistol, rifle or shot gun. Isn't this a loop hole? You could buy a frame and everything you need to complete a pistol and have it in one day without a CPL?

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    I wouldn't consider it a loop hole since the AR pistol is BARELY a pistol in my opinion. Can't be carried in a belt holster discreetly, can't be stuck in a pocket. You COULD fire it one handed but your gonna be super unaccurate and slow... In my eye it will always be a rifle, just shorter.

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    can't stand people who don't know **** .

    if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

    but you can never build a rifle thengo to a pistol.

    also washington state requires any pistol sold by a ffl to have the pistol paperwork filled out at time of purchase

    -------------------------

    but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

    ask the people who know

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122

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    Boo Boo wrote:
    can't stand people who don't know @#$% .

    if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

    but you can never build a rifle thengo to a pistol.

    also washington state requires any pistol sold by a ffl to have the pistol paperwork filled out at time of purchase

    -------------------------

    but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

    ask the people who know

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122
    Boo Boo you just made my point, I bought a frame not a pistol. Now I can make it into a pistol with out pistol paper work.

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    Boo Boo wrote:
    can't stand people who don't know @#$% .

    if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

    but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

    ask the people who know

    http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122
    Hey Boo Boo are you borderline retarded or something? You dont prove a argument by quoting ARFCOM! The BATFE has ruled that a pistol once made into a rifle will not be able to be made into a pistol again and will forever be either a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle you are WRONG, let me show you how you prove something. 2nd paragraph, third sentence


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    FE are you the retarded one? we are not talking about configuring a rifle into a pistol. if you would pay attention you would see i never said that was legal. if you want to put words in my mouth start with ****.

    people following your advice I hope get locked up

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    I hate to stir the pot, but someone might actually be trying to get some useful info from all this name calling. When you purchase a stripped AR-15 lower receiver in a FFL licensed shop you have the choice of filling out only the 4473 and registering the lower as an "other firearm". In the state of Washington this would only allow you to legally build that receiver into a rifle only. You also have the option of filling out the state application to transfer a pistol as well. If you choose to fill out this form as well the receiver would be marked as a "frame only". This would allow you to build the receiver into a pistol or a rifle. As far as building the receiver into a pistol then into a rifle then into a pistol again that is perfectly legal. If you read the whole second paragraph of the ATF letter sent to FE you will see the important part of the sentence is that you need to obtain certification from the "manufacturer of the receiver" that it was never built into a rifle configuration. When you bought the receiver it had never been built into a rifle configuration therefore that rule doesn't apply to the end user unless you are trying to use the receiver from an AR that left the factory as a rifle. The question you asked to elicit the letter from the ATF either did not pertain to this specific situation or the question was not properly understood by the agent that sent the letter.

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    ElJefe1911 wrote:
    I hate to stir the pot, but someone might actually be trying to get some useful info from all this name calling. When you purchase a stripped AR-15 lower receiver in a FFL licensed shop you have the choice of filling out only the 4473 and registering the lower as an "other firearm". In the state of Washington this would only allow you to legally build that receiver into a rifle only. You also have the option of filling out the state application to transfer a pistol as well. If you choose to fill out this form as well the receiver would be marked as a "frame only". This would allow you to build the receiver into a pistol or a rifle. As far as building the receiver into a pistol then into a rifle then into a pistol again that is perfectly legal. If you read the whole second paragraph of the ATF letter sent to FE you will see the important part of the sentence is that you need to obtain certification from the "manufacturer of the receiver" that it was never built into a rifle configuration. When you bought the receiver it had never been built into a rifle configuration therefore that rule doesn't apply to the end user unless you are trying to use the receiver from an AR that left the factory as a rifle. The question you asked to elicit the letter from the ATF either did not pertain to this specific situation or the question was not properly understood by the agent that sent the letter.


    This is correct,people have been building TC Contenders and later Encores into pistol and rifle configurations back and forth for years,as long as it is a legal pistol or rifle configuration,I have never,ever heard of it being questioned

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    I need to clarify that I did not send that letter in but found it online.

    The TC Contenders and Encores are not applicable in this instance because that case was ONLY about whether the possession of the parts meant intent to assemble a SBR and in no part of the ruling did it address assembling it into a rifle then a pistol again later. This aspect has never been taken to court to be proven legal but as the law reads now it is not legal. In the instance of NFA weapons just because it hasn't been questioned does not automatically make it legal. An example of this is the recent updated understanding about the serialized portion of suppressors, people wanted to believe that they could do whatever they wanted to with them even though the law and precedent already indicated otherwise.



    Next point. Since there seems to be confusion about the letter of the law:

    RCW 9.41.010 defines:
    Rifle: "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
    Short-barreled rifle: "Short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
    Pistol as: ""Pistol" means any firearm with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length, or is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."
    And Firearm as: ""Firearm" means a weapon or device from which a projectile or projectiles may be fired by an explosive such as gunpowder."

    So again, in Washington state law once what was purchased as a "firearm" the bare receiver has been made into a "Rifle", it can only be a weapon made from a rifle or a SBR whether the shoulder stock is attached or not. A Short barreled rifle does not need to have a shoulder stock after it has had one put on the receiver is a SBR until it is removed from the NFA Registry even if completed in a pistol configuration.


    Can anyone point to any place where Washington state law requires a INDIVIDUAL to register the manufacture or transfer of a pistol? Dealers yes for the transfer, but a individual purchasing a bare receiver is purchasing what is defined as a "Firearm" and no pistol registration is required, the individual then changes the serialized portion of the "Firearm" to a "Pistol" by how he assembles it and it remains a pistol until the serialized portion is assembled as a "Rifle" at which point when completed in another configuration it is:"weapon made from a rifle by any means of modification if such modified weapon has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches." which is defined as a Short Barreled Rifle


    Can ANYONE else CITE law instead of opinion, everyone who's trying to discredit what I've shown from the the letter of the law has not cited anything just provided their opinion. Someone please show REAL proof.

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    There is an easy way around this. If you are going to build an AR pistol then buy a pistol receiver. They are manufactured to completely eliminate this issue as they are marked by the manufacture as a pistol and are sold by the FFL in the same manner as a pistol.

    FE427 is correct that, in Wa., once a firearm is built into a rifle configuration it is unlawful to build it back into a pistol configuration. Look at the definition of a rifle carefully;

    "Rifle" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder.

    This means any firearm that has had its configuration changed into that is intended to be fired from the shoulder regardless of what the original configuration was.
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