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Question about AR pistol / lower

StatTheCat

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I bought an AR lower the other day for a pistol build. I thought it needed to be registered as a pistol and the guy at the gun store said it did not. There is a box on the form that said build or parts something other than rifle or pistol. He said that when you finish the build it by default becomes a pistol.



Anyone run into this?



They own the store and have built guns for 20 plus years.
 

Boo Boo

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if its a pistol lower you should have filled out a washington state pistol form.



if you did not then you have a rifle lower. what he said is not true. as any pistol sold by a ffl in washington needs that form filed out
 

StatTheCat

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The box that was checked was parts.

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.
 

Johnny Law

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A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.
 

Dr. Fresh

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Johnny Law wrote:
A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.

You can build a pistol from a bare lower. As long as it has never had rifle parts on it, it doesn't matter.
 

shad0wfax

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Dr. Fresh wrote:
Johnny Law wrote:
A ar15 pistol lower receiver will be stamped "pistol" on it. If it is not, then you cannot use a rifle lower for a pistol build.

You can build a pistol from a bare lower. As long as it has never had rifle parts on it, it doesn't matter.
That is correct from a federal law standpoint.

I'm unclear on how WA law looks at newly purchased lowers and pistols. I know WA has an extra form that goes to the DOL where they keep records on pistols purchased. (Since the DOL is not an LEA, they get away with it...)

It's also a big no-no to have 1 pistol upper, 1 rifle upper, and 1 assembled lower. They can get you for short-barreled rifle stuff in that situation. In other words, make sure all of your lowers have uppers attached to them if you have a mix of pistol and rifle uppers.
 

Boo Boo

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but in washington state you have to fill out a pistol form for the lower when purchased, just like any other pistol. if not then its not a pistol per washington state.



and the federal form has to state pistol
 

FE427TP

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At the start of the year federal 4473 changed and a bare lower is neither a handgun or a rifle it is just a "firearm". The box checked is "other" since it is not sold as a pistol and is just a "firearm" being neither "rifle" nor "pistol". There will be no pistol registration form and bare lowers can now no longer be sold to persons under 21 since only rifles and shotguns are allowed to be sold to people 18 and over. Also you must make modifications to the extension (where the recoil spring is) so that a shoulder stock wont fit on it. Also you can not put a vertical fore grip on it as the BATFE currently interprets this as a AOW even though it clearly doesn't fit the legal definition for an AOW. They are great fun after you've taken the flash hider off, you get around a 14" fireball out the end of the barrel and feel the blast quite well.



Johnny Law, there is NO law or rule that says a pistol lower has to be marked as such, federally speaking it can never have had a rifle stock or barrel put on it. And you should not MUST have certification from the MFG that it has never had a rifle stock put on it. Some companies put pistol on the lower, some like DPMS have a K in the serial number to show that it was never assembled. Either way this is a suggestion and not required by the BATFE as proven by a letter from the BATFE on January 14 2009 PM me your E-mail and I'll send it if you need.

Handguns.jpg
 

FE427TP

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Boo Boo wrote:
but in washington state you have to fill out a pistol form for the lower when purchased, just like any other pistol. if not then its not a pistol per washington state.



and the federal form has to state pistol

You're partially right but mostly wrong with regard to bare AR lowers, he purchased a firearm which is the serial numbered bare receiver, from which he will manufacture a pistol not purchase one
 

Boo Boo

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a ar pistol can be made into a rifle and back but not the other way around.

and in washington you would have needed to fill out the pistol form
 

shad0wfax

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FE427TP wrote:
Totally off-topic, but that's a nice little collection you have there.
I see a full-size HK USP Tactical. Is that a .45 ACP? It looks like it. (I'm not too keen on the weapon-light though.) AAC, AWC or Gemtech on there? It looks like there's an adapter for a thread or a Nielsen device adapter, but I can't quite figure out what make it is.

I want to get an integrally suppressed Ruger MkII.

Your Ruger revolver looks like a .357 Magnum Blackhawk with a 9mm cylinder for it. Is that right?
 

FE427TP

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Boo Boo wrote:
a ar pistol can be made into a rifle and back but not the other way around.

and in washington you would have needed to fill out the pistol form

:cuss: NO AN AR PISTOL CAN NOT BE MADE INTO A RIFLE AND THEN BACK INTO A PISTOL the BATFE has a letter out on this for almost 9 months now, (same Jan 14th letter) once it has become a rifle it then becomes a weapon made from a rifle think a short barreled rifle, there is NO back and forth between pistol, rifle and pistol


Wheelgunner
: thank you sir, i ordered three sequential serial number lowers before the law changed and have them registered and marked as pistols. mostly only good for the sinus blasting noise but fun :cool: You might look into Bazooka brothers lowers they have a rough forging that they open enough to fit grease gun mags might be a better start than most lowers.

shad0wfax: yes sir it's a 45, the light comes off when it goes in the holster, I had to modify a Blackhawk Serpa holster quite a bit to get it to fit the raised sights that come on the tactical, I went with a SWR can for both of them, The 45 can is still around 143 decibels dry, but if I get some water or wire pulling lube they say it goes down to around 130Db it sounds like a nail gun. I have a Gemtech for a 308 I'm waiting on my sheriff to sign so I can send it off. The thread adaptor is just the part of the Nielsen that comes out the back of the can. I highly recommend not going with a integral, the Warlock is a very quiet can quieter than most integral cans from the 80's and I can also put it onto my bolt action 22 rifle as well, after you've shot suppressed you'll never want to go back why not have one $200 TAX stamp and be able to use it on every 22 instead of a $200 stamp for every one. Also you can get some fairly short barrel say 4" or so aluminum uppers for the ruger pistols after you add the can they are close to the same length as the integrals and again you have one can you can share between host weapons. You guessed right about the Blackhawk, maybe I'll take it deer hunting this year :D


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shad0wfax

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FE427TP wrote:
shad0wfax: yes sir it's a 45, the light comes off when it goes in the holster, I had to modify a Blackhawk Serpa holster quite a bit to get it to fit the raised sights that come on the tactical, I went with a SWR can for both of them, The 45 can is still around 143 decibels dry, but if I get some water or wire pulling lube they say it goes down to around 130Db it sounds like a nail gun. I have a Gemtech for a 308 I'm waiting on my sheriff to sign so I can send it off. The thread adaptor is just the part of the Nielsen that comes out the back of the can. I highly recommend not going with a integral, the Warlock is a very quiet can quieter than most integral cans from the 80's and I can also put it onto my bolt action 22 rifle as well, after you've shot suppressed you'll never want to go back why not have one $200 TAX stamp and be able to use it on every 22 instead of a $200 stamp for every one. Also you can get some fairly short barrel say 4" or so aluminum uppers for the ruger pistols after you add the can they are close to the same length as the integrals and again you have one can you can share between host weapons. You guessed right about the Blackhawk, maybe I'll take it deer hunting this year :D


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Man now I'm totally off-topic! Sorry StatTheCat, I'll find some way to get it back on topic...

I also carry a .45 USP Tactical (full size) in a modified SERPA too. (wrote a how-to write-up about 10 months ago) I went with an AWC Nexus III can. I'm not sure what the dB is. I wish I could have afforded a Knight's... big bucks but quiet. (131 to 134 dB with water)

You make a good case for 1 tax stamp to serve a variety of .22 LR pistols. You're also correct that the integral ones have quite long barrels. I'll have to think about it before I get one and it'll be a while before I do anyways. I'd really like to get a can for my M1A; it's a loud SOB. It'd be cool to have a can for my 7 mag too.

...as long as you hunt with the .357 cylinder in the Blackhawk... :p

Oh yeah, now we're talking about handguns again. So yeah, I think you're OK if you build it as a pistol. Maybe document the build for your own peace of mind?
 

FE427TP

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shad0wfax wrote:
I also carry a .45 USP Tactical (full size) in a modified SERPA too. (wrote a how-to write-up about 10 months ago) I went with an AWC Nexus III can. I'm not sure what the dB is. I wish I could have afforded a Knight's... big bucks but quiet. (131 to 134 dB with water)

You make a good case for 1 tax stamp to serve a variety of .22 LR pistols. You're also correct that the integral ones have quite long barrels. I'll have to think about it before I get one and it'll be a while before I do anyways. I'd really like to get a can for my M1A; it's a loud SOB. It'd be cool to have a can for my 7 mag too.

AAC's new can just made the Knights can old technology, it takes a 45 to the same sound levels as a older style 22 can, very impressive
 

StatTheCat

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StatTheCat wrote:
The box that was checked was parts.

(A6) Does the GCA prohibit anyone from making a handgun, shotgun or rifle? [Back]

With certain exceptions a firearm may be made by a non-licensee provided it is not for sale and the maker is not prohibited from possessing firearms. However, a person is prohibited from assembling a non-sporting semi-automatic rifle or non-sporting shotgun from imported parts. In addition, the making of an NFA firearm requires a tax payment and approval by ATF. An application to make a machine gun will not be approved unless documentation is submitted showing that the firearm is being made for a Federal or State agency.

Sorry, the box they checked was called frame and after reading the directions on the back #18 it states a frame can be a pistol, rifle or shot gun. Isn't this a loop hole? You could buy a frame and everything you need to complete a pistol and have it in one day without a CPL?
 

David.Car

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I wouldn't consider it a loop hole since the AR pistol is BARELY a pistol in my opinion. Can't be carried in a belt holster discreetly, can't be stuck in a pocket. You COULD fire it one handed but your gonna be super unaccurate and slow... In my eye it will always be a rifle, just shorter.
 

Boo Boo

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can't stand people who don't know shit .

if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

but you can never build a rifle thengo to a pistol.

also washington state requires any pistol sold by a ffl to have the pistol paperwork filled out at time of purchase

-------------------------

but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

ask the people who know

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122
 

StatTheCat

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Boo Boo wrote:
can't stand people who don't know @#$% .

if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

but you can never build a rifle thengo to a pistol.

also washington state requires any pistol sold by a ffl to have the pistol paperwork filled out at time of purchase

-------------------------

but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

ask the people who know

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122
Boo Boo you just made my point, I bought a frame not a pistol. Now I can make it into a pistol with out pistol paper work.
 

FE427TP

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Boo Boo wrote:
can't stand people who don't know @#$% .

if you have a ar pistol you can build it into a rifle then back to a pistol.

but its better to not listen to any of these backyard builders who spout off without knowing the law.

ask the people who know

http://www.ar15.com/forums/forum.html?b=3&f=122

Hey Boo Boo are you borderline retarded or something? You dont prove a argument by quoting ARFCOM! The BATFE has ruled that a pistol once made into a rifle will not be able to be made into a pistol again and will forever be either a rifle or a weapon made from a rifle you are WRONG, let me show you how you prove something. 2nd paragraph, third sentence
atf_letter.jpg
 
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