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Thread: trespass in public building?

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    I'm sure someone out there knows the ins and outs of this, and can cite it, I just can't seem to figure it out.

    can I be trespassed from a public building (town hall, sec-state, PD) where carry is legal, if I refuse to leave? provided that I am not engaging in any form of "questionable" behavior beyond OC ??????

    guess the question is, do I have legal standing to REFUSE an order to leave a state or local government building, where carry is legal, when told to leave due to my firearm????

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    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
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    As long as it isn't a public building off limits like a court house, you should be O.K.
    I believe it would fall under the pre-emption law, especially for the public buildings that are less than the state (county, city), since only the state can regulate guns, not local govts. I believe the state hasn't banned guns in places like the S.O.S. so you should be good there too.
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    xd-40 wrote:
    I'm sure someone out there knows the ins and outs of this, and can cite it, I just can't seem to figure it out.

    can I be trespassed from a public building (town hall, sec-state, PD) where carry is legal, if I refuse to leave? provided that I am not engaging in any form of "questionable" behavior beyond OC ??????

    guess the question is, do I have legal standing to REFUSE an order to leave a state or local government building, where carry is legal, when told to leave due to my firearm????
    I wouldn't think you can be forced to leave unless you have no business there. Worst they could get you for is loitering, but if you're there with business to tend to, then that's out the window.

    The only place I know of (besides the already present CEZ's) that have the ability to do this: School district property - and maybe university/college property.

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    that is my assumption, however, IF the situation should arise where I'm told "leave, you can't have that here" can they charge me with trespass for refusing to leave?

    I'm sure that Dr. Todd's gonna chime in here, but let's see what everybody thinks, and why they think it. (tip, I really love links to the MCL) :-)

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    xd-40 wrote:
    I'm sure someone out there knows the ins and outs of this, and can cite it, I just can't seem to figure it out.

    can I be trespassed from a public building (town hall, sec-state, PD) where carry is legal, if I refuse to leave? provided that I am not engaging in any form of "questionable" behavior beyond OC ??????

    guess the question is, do I have legal standing to REFUSE an order to leave a state or local government building, where carry is legal, when told to leave due to my firearm????
    I wouldn't think you can be forced to leave unless you have no business there. Worst they could get you for is loitering, but if you're there with business to tend to, then that's out the window.

    The only place I know of (besides the already present CEZ's) that have the ability to do this: School district property - and maybe university/college property.
    school district? are they exempted from state law, ie given the constitutional authority to write their own? just wondering, on the schools cuz I've gotta vote at an elementary school, AND my oldest boy's about to start preschool.

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    xd-40 wrote:
    School district? are they exempted from state law, ie given the constitutional authority to write their own? just wondering, on the schools cuz I've gotta vote at an elementary school, AND my oldest boy's about to start preschool.
    Preemption doesn't mention schools. And preschools tend to be private anyway.

    As kids, we're required to go to them (a constitutionally questionable thing, at best) and as adults we have a privilege to go to them if we choose to. An administrator can tell you to get out or face a trespassing charge as an adult, and he can call the cops on you if you don't leave. Similarly, he can call the cops on you as a kid if you don't show up for class.

    The voting thing, that's what I like the sound of. Showing up licensed OCing to vote at a school would be a great test case if they tried to kick you out. I don't know off hand, but I bet there is Michigan code mandating that registered voters be allowed to vote. Does anyone know if that's the case?

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    Public means public. You can stay unless you do something wrong.

    While we were visiting the Michigan Capitol building in Lansing we talked to the security guard there.

    We were told that they can't kick people out at are behaving themselves. They even have some homeless people that will come in and even go up to the gallery and hang out all day to stay warm in the winter.

    So if the homeless can "loiter" in the state capitol building, you can carry your sidearm in any other public building in the state (except where you already know you can't, courtrooms etc

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    xd-40 wrote:
    ..."leave, you can't have that here"...
    That is the same as saying "a firearm is not allowed here", you already know the answer to that one.
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    dougwg wrote:
    Public means public. You can stay unless you do something wrong.

    While we were visiting the Michigan Capitol building in Lansing we talked to the security guard there.

    We were told that they can't kick people out at are behaving themselves. They even have some homeless people that will come in and even go up to the gallery and hang out all day to stay warm in the winter.

    So if the homeless can "loiter" in the state capitol building, you can carry your sidearm in any other public building in the state (except where you already know you can't, courtrooms etc
    True, When I OCed at the Capital the officer said he would have the manager ask me to leave and I would have to or face trespass. I said you can't kick me out for doing something lawful. I talked with the manager and he agreed he couldn't kick me out. So the answer is you can be in a public building for all lawful purposes.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    xd-40 wrote:
    that is my assumption, however, IF the situation should arise where I'm told "leave, you can't have that here"¬* can they charge me with trespass for refusing to leave?

    I'm sure that Dr. Todd's gonna chime in here, but let's see what everybody thinks, and why they think it.¬* (tip, I really love links to the MCL) :-)
    There really is no bright-line rule here. I have seen the following used as a possible charge for those who refuse to leave.

    MCL750.170 Disturbance of lawful meetings.
    Sec. 170.

    Disturbance of lawful meetings‚ÄĒAny person who shall make or excite any disturbance or contention in any tavern, store or grocery, manufacturing establishment or any other business place or in any street, lane, alley, highway, public building, grounds or park, or at any election or other public meeting where citizens are peaceably and lawfully assembled, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
    History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.170

    I think the criteria to determine whether you will be asked to leave is rather ambiguous: perhaps just being present may cause a person to be ejected from a school that utilizes a check-in system for visitors but being present in the state capitol building causes no concern. I think especially regarding schools, most parents would not want the general public to be able to just walk around inside of a school building. However, imho if one has a legitimate reason to be there, it would be difficult to bar them without a very substantive reason.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    xd-40 wrote:
    that is my assumption, however, IF the situation should arise where I'm told "leave, you can't have that here" can they charge me with trespass for refusing to leave?

    I'm sure that Dr. Todd's gonna chime in here, but let's see what everybody thinks, and why they think it. (tip, I really love links to the MCL) :-)
    I posted this in the "asked to leave" thread:

    750.552 Trespass upon lands or premises of another; violation; penalty.
    Sec. 552.

    (1) A person shall not do any of the following:

    (a) Enter the lands or premises of another without lawful authority after having been forbidden so to do by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

    (b) Remain without lawful authority on the land or premises of another after being notified to depart by the owner or occupant or the agent of the owner or occupant.

    (c) Enter or remain without lawful authority on fenced or posted farm property of another person without the consent of the owner or his or her lessee or agent. A request to leave the premises is not a necessary element for a violation of this subdivision. This subdivision does not apply to a person who is in the process of attempting, by the most direct route, to contact the owner or his or her lessee or agent to request consent.

    (2) A person who violates subsection (1) is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment in the county jail for not more than 30 days or by a fine of not more than $250.00, or both.

    History: Add. 1951, Act 102, Imd. Eff. May 31, 1951 ;-- Am. 2007, Act 167, Eff. Mar. 20, 2008

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    Here's a question:

    I knew a guy who didn't graduate high school until he was 21. Not so bright, I know.

    But in the chance circumstance that there are others still attending high school at 21, and they obtain a CPL, can they lawfully open carry while attending class?

    Ponder that one...

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    And I suppose this may answer some of the questions about why someone has to be 21 to obtain a CPL, even though they can lawfully open carry before 21.

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    I would imagine that the school's policies pertaining to students would trump any state laws in that scenario. Just as they do on college campuses (as I understand it).

    I was 18 when I graduated (on time) and I could not smoke on campus because I was a student and the school had a "no tobacco" policy for students. I had to leave the campus (walked to the sidewalk right in front of the school, or got in my truck and pulled out of the parking lot) to smoke.

    I also assume (yes, I know...) that schools have a zero tolerance policy regarding alcohol and that the 21 year-old student would not be allowed to drink while on campus, or be under the influence as far as that goes.

    Both of the aforementioned policies further restrict legal activity, but I assume ther are valid / legalbecause they pertain to students enrolled in the school. If you don't like the policy, choose another school.?!?...
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    Michigander wrote:
    As kids, we're required to go to them (a constitutionally questionable thing, at best) and as adults we have a privilege to go to them if we choose to.
    Actually kids are NOT required to go to a public (federal)school. Homeschooling is very easy to do in Michigan!

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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I would imagine that the school's policies pertaining to students would trump any state laws in that scenario. Just as they do on college campuses (as I understand it).

    I was 18 when I graduated (on time) and I could not smoke on campus because I was a student and the school had a "no tobacco" policy for students. I had to leave the campus (walked to the sidewalk right in front of the school, or got in my truck and pulled out of the parking lot) to smoke.

    I also assume (yes, I know...) that schools have a zero tolerance policy regarding alcohol and that the 21 year-old student would not be allowed to drink while on campus, or be under the influence as far as that goes.

    Both of the aforementioned policies further restrict legal activity, but I assume ther are valid / legalbecause they pertain to students enrolled in the school. If you don't like the policy, choose another school.?!?...
    Yes, but as aunit of government they cannot regulate firearms in and of themselves. Perhaps it is just happenstance that asthe age requirement is what it is, perhaps not...
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    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I would imagine that the school's policies pertaining to students would trump any state laws in that scenario. Just as they do on college campuses (as I understand it).

    I was 18 when I graduated (on time) and I could not smoke on campus because I was a student and the school had a "no tobacco" policy for students. I had to leave the campus (walked to the sidewalk right in front of the school, or got in my truck and pulled out of the parking lot) to smoke.

    I also assume (yes, I know...) that schools have a zero tolerance policy regarding alcohol and that the 21 year-old student would not be allowed to drink while on campus, or be under the influence as far as that goes.

    Both of the aforementioned policies further restrict legal activity, but I assume ther are valid / legalbecause they pertain to students enrolled in the school. If you don't like the policy, choose another school.?!?...
    I'm not quite sure. But I believe that preemption applies to firearms and not to tobacco or liquor.

    My high school had a zero-tolerance tobacco rule as well. In fact, it was forbidden to even possess tobacco on school grounds... even in your vehicle parked in the lot... even if you were 18 or older.

    I wrote for the school paper and I remember presenting an editorial discussing the issue. I wondered, out loud, how many of the school faculty members smoked... and whether or not they left their cigarettes at home. My contention was that if a student's vehicle was susceptible to a tobacco search at any given moment, then so should a school employee's vehicle. And if the student were to be suspended for possessing tobacco (especially if they were 18), then so should any faculty member found in possession of it.

    The editorial never made it to final print. Gee... I wonder why.

    True story: My high school principal had a hard on for me. He knew I smoked but could never catch me doing it. He used to tell me, quite often, that he would catch me before I graduated and that would be it for me. I used to tell him he'd never catch me because I wasn't stupid enough to bring cigarettes on campus. One day he stopped me in the hallway and conducted a search of my coat pockets. He found one piece of nicorette gum... it wasn't even labeled... it was just a loose piece in my pocket. He was so sure he had me... I thought he creamed his pants.

    When I was passed down to the Assistant Principal, I articulated my case. First, I was 18 (I was born late, so I start school late)... and as the school policy was written, "anyone under the age of 18 shall not posses nicotine" and "tobacco product (are) prohibited on school grounds." I politely explained to the Assistant Principal that A) They couldn't be sure the contraband in question really WAS nicorette unless they tested it. B) Even if it WERE determined to be nicorette, it would be considered nicotene and not tobacco... and as the policy was written, I was not in violation because I was 18 years old. She just looked at me and said, "You're a good kid... go back to class."

    The principal was pissed haha. Ran into the Assistant Principal some years later, after she had retired, and we had a nice conversation. She remembered me clearly. I thanked her for letting me off the hook that day. She let me in on a little secret about the principal at the time: He was a raging ***** that nobody liked very much.

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    Veritas wrote:
    Here's a question:

    I knew a guy who didn't graduate high school until he was 21. Not so bright, I know.

    But in the chance circumstance that there are others still attending high school at 21, and they obtain a CPL, can they lawfully open carry while attending class?

    Ponder that one...
    mmmmm.........not sure I trust anyone with a firearm who can't pass high school in 4 years. lol

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    I keep asking this question, but never get any answer.

    "Who enforces these type of rules, regulations, or restrictions?"

    If the school passes it, who enforces it?

    Does the school hire it's own police force? And if so, where does the school get it's police powers from?

    It ultimately gets down to, "Who enforces it?"

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Veritas wrote:
    Springfield Smitty wrote:
    I would imagine that the school's policies pertaining to students would trump any state laws in that scenario. Just as they do on college campuses (as I understand it).

    I was 18 when I graduated (on time) and I could not smoke on campus because I was a student and the school had a "no tobacco" policy for students. I had to leave the campus (walked to the sidewalk right in front of the school, or got in my truck and pulled out of the parking lot) to smoke.

    I also assume (yes, I know...) that schools have a zero tolerance policy regarding alcohol and that the 21 year-old student would not be allowed to drink while on campus, or be under the influence as far as that goes.

    Both of the aforementioned policies further restrict legal activity, but I assume ther are valid / legal¬*because they pertain to students enrolled in the school. If you don't like the policy, choose another school.?!?...
    I'm not quite sure.¬* But I believe that preemption applies to firearms and not to tobacco or liquor.

    My high school had a zero-tolerance tobacco rule as well.¬* In fact, it was forbidden to even possess tobacco on school grounds... even in your vehicle parked in the lot... even if you were 18 or older.

    I wrote for the school paper and I remember presenting an editorial discussing the issue.¬* I wondered, out loud, how many of the school faculty members smoked... and whether or not they left their cigarettes at home.¬* My contention was that if a student's vehicle was susceptible to a tobacco search at any given moment, then so should a school employee's vehicle.¬* And if the student were to be suspended for possessing tobacco (especially if they were 18), then so should any faculty member found in possession of it.

    The editorial never made it to final print.¬* Gee... I wonder why.

    True story:¬* My high school principal had a hard on for me.¬* He knew I smoked but could never catch me doing it.¬* He used to tell me, quite often, that he would catch me before I graduated and that would be it for me.¬* I used to tell him he'd never catch me because I wasn't stupid enough to bring cigarettes on campus.¬* One day he stopped me in the hallway and conducted a search of my coat pockets.¬* He found one piece of nicorette gum... it wasn't even labeled... it was just a loose piece in my pocket.¬* He was so sure he had me... I thought he creamed his pants.

    When I was passed down to the Assistant Principal, I articulated my case.¬* First, I was 18 (I was born late, so I start school late)... and as the school policy was written, "anyone under the age of 18 shall not posses nicotine" and¬* "tobacco product (are) prohibited on school grounds."¬* I politely explained to the Assistant Principal that A)¬* They couldn't be sure the contraband in question really WAS nicorette unless they tested it.¬* B)¬* Even if it WERE determined to be nicorette, it would be considered nicotene and not tobacco... and as the policy was written, I was not in violation because I was 18 years old.¬* She just looked at me and said, "You're a good kid... go back to class."

    The principal was pissed haha.¬* Ran into the Assistant Principal some years later, after she had retired, and we had a nice conversation.¬* She remembered me clearly.¬* I thanked her for letting me off the hook that day.¬* She let me in on a little secret about the principal at the time:¬* He was a raging ***** that nobody liked very much.
    Both Michigan Public Act 140 of 1993(TOBACCO FREE SCHOOLS)and Public act 198 of 1986, as amended (MICHIGAN CLEAN INDOOR AIR ACT) prohibit smoking on school property by anyone.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer Ė I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I went to school in GA.

    Doesn't really make a difference but I thought I'd mention it anyway and show my Southern pride... :celebrate
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