• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Elkhorn ordinance against OC

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ

Plankton

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Messages
398
Location
Just north of the Sheeple's Republik of Madistan
imported post

Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:
I talked with Chief Christensen a few moments ago. His interpretation of the ordinance is that it does (as worded) allow the open-carry of a firearm in a holster because a holster constitutes "a suitable container"

His interpretation is because the sentence uses the word "or" it doesn't, in its text as written, a gun in a holster does not have to be unloaded or knocked down. Here is the text:

is unlawful for any person, except an authorized police officer to fire or discharge any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun of any description or tipped arrow within the City, or to have any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun in his possession or under his control unless it is unloaded and knocked down or enclosed within a carrying case or other suitable container.

He interprets the statute as "it is unlawful for any person to have any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun in his possession or under his control unless it is unloaded and knocked down OR enclosed within a carrying case OR other suitable container.

The Chief's comment to me was that they viewed a holster as a "suitable container" and that since it is a suitable container it could also be loaded because the ordinance doesn't say it has to be unloaded and knocked down AND in a suitable container but rather it says unloaded and knocked down OR in a suitable container.

Regardless, I think its a poorly worded ordinance, I think its rife for mis-interpretation, but I DID ask the chief if his officers had been trained that open-carry of a loaded firearm absent any unlawful behavior was completely legal in Elkhorn and he verified that his officers were trained as to the legality of open-carry.

So Carry-On in Elkhorn!
Sun Prairie has the EXACT wording as written above. I'm not sure of how they interpret it.So far, I have had no problems.:)
 

paul@paul-fisher.com

Regular Member
Joined
May 24, 2009
Messages
4,049
Location
Chandler, AZ
imported post

Plankton wrote:
Wisconsin Carry, Inc. - Chairman wrote:
I talked with Chief Christensen a few moments ago. His interpretation of the ordinance is that it does (as worded) allow the open-carry of a firearm in a holster because a holster constitutes "a suitable container"

His interpretation is because the sentence uses the word "or" it doesn't, in its text as written, a gun in a holster does not have to be unloaded or knocked down. Here is the text:

is unlawful for any person, except an authorized police officer to fire or discharge any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun of any description or tipped arrow within the City, or to have any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun in his possession or under his control unless it is unloaded and knocked down or enclosed within a carrying case or other suitable container.

He interprets the statute as "it is unlawful for any person to have any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun in his possession or under his control unless it is unloaded and knocked down OR enclosed within a carrying case OR other suitable container.

The Chief's comment to me was that they viewed a holster as a "suitable container" and that since it is a suitable container it could also be loaded because the ordinance doesn't say it has to be unloaded and knocked down AND in a suitable container but rather it says unloaded and knocked down OR in a suitable container.

Regardless, I think its a poorly worded ordinance, I think its rife for mis-interpretation, but I DID ask the chief if his officers had been trained that open-carry of a loaded firearm absent any unlawful behavior was completely legal in Elkhorn and he verified that his officers were trained as to the legality of open-carry.

So Carry-On in Elkhorn!
Sun Prairie has the EXACT wording as written above. I'm not sure of how they interpret it. So far, I have had no problems. :)

That is fine but obviously when they (Elkhorn) showed it to the city attorney he wanted a change.
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Just reading that passage, looks clear to me. You can NOT carry a loaded gun at all. It has to be unloaded, and it needs to be in a case or "knocked down".

So I can not for the life of me see how this can be taken as "you can carry a loaded handgun on your hip"...

It sounds like Sun Prairie need to make the change as well.
 

davegran

Regular Member
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
1,563
Location
Cassville Area -Twelve Miles From Anything, Wiscon
imported post

Chief Christensenn said:
He interprets the statute as "it is unlawful for any person to have any firearm, rifle, spring or air gun in his possession or under his control unless it is unloaded and knocked down OR enclosed within a carrying case OR other suitable container.

The Chief's comment to me was that they viewed a holster as a "suitable container" and that since it is a suitable container it could also be loaded because the ordinance doesn't say it has to be unloaded and knocked down AND in a suitable container but rather it says unloaded and knocked down OR in a suitable container.
I don't believe this holds any water because the legal duties of the police, including the Chief, are to enforce the law, not interpret it.

Try to get a signed statement of his position from the chief and see how far you get....
A variation on the "Get Out Of Jail Free" card.

Dave
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

The ordinance is more stringent and not similar to any statute.

Even if one accepted the police chief's strangely convoluted interpretation of the ordinance, it's still clearly preempted.

There may be a number of good reasons why we carry a handgun in a holster, but it is not because it is a requirement of law in Wisconsin.

There is no similar state statute that requires mere possession or carrying of a firearm to be in a "container" even if the chief chooses to include a holster within his definition of "suitable container." And what sort of "holster" does one use for a long gun? I have a shotgun scabbard that will fit a couple of my shotguns, but I don't believe that they may require me to use it. Would I be ticketed for carrying the AR-15 at sling arms (or port arms or shoulder arms)?

The chief is merely engaging in a little ex post facto rationalization of the ordinance. It has to go.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

J.Gleason wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
There may be a number of good reasons why we carry a handgun in a holster, but it is not because it is a requirement of law in Wisconsin.
Wouldn't it be great if it WAS a requirement of law?
If you mean that everyone would be required to carry a gun... absolutely NO! Considering some of the stupid remarks from anti's I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun any more than I would favor requiring them to exercise their free speech. In many cases it's better if they keep their mouths shut.

It's good to have the right to choose to carry a gun. Considering many of the dumb asses it's good for all of us that they have a right not to carry one too.

Freedom implies that there's a choice, not a requirement.
 

J.Gleason

Banned
Joined
May 1, 2009
Messages
3,481
Location
Chilton, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

No I mean that if you choose to carry it has to be in a holster. It doesn't say it can't be concealed.

Of course I didn't mean that everyone would be required to carry a gun. That wouldn't make it a right it would be a requirement.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,381
Location
across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
imported post

Shotgun wrote:
Considering some of the stupid remarks from anti's I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun any more than I would favor requiring them to exercise their free speech. In many cases it's better if they keep their mouths shut.
Considering some of the stupid remarks from open carriers I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun...
 

AaronS

Regular Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Messages
1,497
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Master Doug Huffman wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Considering some of the stupid remarks from anti's I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun any more than I would favor requiring them to exercise their free speech. In many cases it's better if they keep their mouths shut.
Considering some of the stupid remarks from open carriers I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun...
It's okay Doug. We will still let you open carry a firearm.:shock:
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

AaronS wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Considering some of the stupid remarks from anti's I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun any more than I would favor requiring them to exercise their free speech. In many cases it's better if they keep their mouths shut.
Considering some of the stupid remarks from open carriers I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun...
It's okay Doug. We will still let you open carry a firearm.:shock:
That's a little unfair because it assumes Doug is an OCer. I don't remember him ever stating that he has OCed anywhere in Wisconsin outside of Washington Island. I could be wrong, god knows I certainly haven't read all of his posts.

I'm not that sure I would consider the carrying of a hand gun in a very rural township, that has a population density of less than 1/3 of the average of Wisconsin, to be "open carry" in a very meaningful way. It's never been an issue in such places. I did it regularly in rural Wisconsin over 35 years ago. I'm sure many others have done it much earlier than that.

Maybe Doug will enlighten us as to whether he has OCed elsewhere, such as on the streets of an incorporated village or city. Sturgeon Bay for example?
 

Packer fan

Regular Member
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
399
Location
Mountain Home, Arkansas, United States
imported post

Shotgun wrote:
AaronS wrote:
Master Doug Huffman wrote:
Shotgun wrote:
Considering some of the stupid remarks from anti's I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun any more than I would favor requiring them to exercise their free speech.  In many cases it's better if they keep their mouths shut.
Considering some of the stupid remarks from open carriers I would definitely not favor requiring them to carry a gun...
It's okay Doug.  We will still let you open carry a firearm.:shock:
That's a little unfair because it assumes Doug is an OCer.  I don't remember him ever stating that he has OCed anywhere in Wisconsin outside of Washington Island.  I could be wrong, god knows I certainly haven't read all of his posts.

I'm not that sure I would consider the carrying of a hand gun in a very rural township, that has a population density of less than 1/3 of the average of Wisconsin, to be "open carry" in a very meaningful way.  It's never been an issue in such places.  I did it regularly in rural Wisconsin over 35 years ago.  I'm sure many others have done it much earlier than that. 

Maybe Doug will enlighten us as to whether he has OCed elsewhere, such as on the streets of an incorporated village or city.  Sturgeon Bay for example?


I do remember Doug posting a picture of him carrying an empty holster while standing by his house but I can't fined it. So he has open carried an empty holster. I saw the picture.

;)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,381
Location
across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
imported post

Ahh, some of us are more meaningfully equal than others? I doubt that I am concerned with or even interested in your 'consideration'.

I moved here on 17 January 2006 and have spent >90% of the time since in my neighborhood. I moved here because this is where I want to be.

Taking my recent trip to Green Bay as an example; I drove to Sturgeon Bay's government center on Michigan Street for a meeting. Left at 1900 and drove to my room in Green Bay and had dinner at St. Brendans. At 0745 I drove to the UW Extension and Agriculture Center on Bellevue. At 1445 I left in time to make the 1700 ferry home. Not a lot of time for stylin' and profilin'. Besides, I was afraid of meeting DustinaC and his homiez.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2009
Messages
2,381
Location
across Death's Door on Washington Island, Wisconsi
imported post

Packer fan wrote:
I saw the picture.
Why do you think that I put up (with) the horrible 'avatar' image. I was trying out my gunbelt with a blazer in my lawyerin' outfit that I wore to the Wisconsin Town Lawyers Conference Green Bay venue. I can argue (someday) that open carrying with a SA1911 on a gunbelt over an outfit appropriate to a (Southern) courtroom ruins the drape of the jacket. But then I-ANAL and a coward and an aśśhole.
 

Shotgun

Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
Joined
Aug 23, 2006
Messages
2,668
Location
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
imported post

Master Doug Huffman wrote:
Ahh, some of us are more meaningfully equal than others?
The concept of "activity" is contained in the phrase "gun rights activist." -- a title you've claimed, without explanation. So I simply asked if you only talk the talk. Your response provided the answer.

I'm not necessarily a fan of "equality" in every possible manifestation, particularly when in involves the lowering of one's self to mediocrity.


"afraid of meeting DustinaC and his homiez" :D good one!
 
Top