Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 47

Thread: Legal to shoot if attacker brandishes a knife, gun?

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    48

    Post imported post

    Is it legal to draw and fire if an attacker has brandished a knife or other weapon, like a firearm?

    For example, if I was walking drown the street, and see someone robbing a store at knifepoint, is the use of lethal force authorized?

    I read this other forum post, that described the store owners shooting a knife-wielding attacker. (They chased him out of the store and continued to shoot at him -- that doesn't sound legal?) http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum60/30840.html

    If an attacker brandishes a knife at me or others, can use lethal force to protect myself or another?

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    591

    Post imported post

    if you or someone life is in danger then yes. pull the trigger but dont empty your clip into him.

    and if they have used the wepon and hurt or mained someone you have the right to shoot them. and try to stop them, if you so desire to posibly be a victim too.

    but once the threat is gone . you best not shoot unless you work as a leo they get away with it.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    48

    Post imported post

    Also, I was reading about the "Castle Doctrine". Wikipedia says the WA law is:

    The law allows use of deadly force in the lawful defense of oneself, a family member, or any other person, when there is reasonable ground to prevent action(s) of the person slain to commit a felony or to do injury or harm, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or in the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, on those in their presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which they are.
    That seems to imply you can shoot anyone who is committing a felony. Really?

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    48

    Post imported post

    if you or someone life is in danger then yes. pull the trigger but dont empty your clip into him.
    I was told you should always shoot to kill.

    While I might want to keep some rounds in reserve specifically for unknown other threats, once I've made the decision to shoot, shouldn't I then be attempting to kill him?

    I heard that some practice a strategy of 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head. This is a reasonable defensive shooting response when the decision to use lethal force has been made, yes?

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound, Washington, USA
    Posts
    504

    Post imported post

    Boo Boo wrote:
    if you or someone life is in danger then yes. pull the trigger but dont empty your clip into him.

    and if they have used the wepon and hurt or mained someone you have the right to shoot them. and try to stop them, if you so desire to posibly be a victim too.

    but once the threat is gone . you best not shoot unless you work as a leo they get away with it.
    What "clip" boo boo

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Seattle, Washington, USA
    Posts
    123

    Post imported post

    xiphoris wrote:
    if you or someone life is in danger then yes. pull the trigger but dont empty your clip into him.
    I was told you should always shoot to kill.

    While I might want to keep some rounds in reserve specifically for unknown other threats, once I've made the decision to shoot, shouldn't I then be attempting to kill him?

    I heard that some practice a strategy of 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head. This is a reasonable defensive shooting response when the decision to use lethal force has been made, yes?
    You never, ever shoot to kill. You shoot to stop.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    591

    Post imported post

    Manu wrote:
    What "clip" boo boo
    the one to put up your hair or if you use a magazine, depends on the centerfold

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048

    Post imported post

    New Daddy wrote:
    xiphoris wrote:
    if you or someone life is in danger then yes. pull the trigger but dont empty your clip into him.
    I was told you should always shoot to kill.

    While I might want to keep some rounds in reserve specifically for unknown other threats, once I've made the decision to shoot, shouldn't I then be attempting to kill him?

    I heard that some practice a strategy of 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head. This is a reasonable defensive shooting response when the decision to use lethal force has been made, yes?
    You never, ever shoot to kill. You shoot to stop.
    Although a firearm is considered a lethal weapon, and officers are trained to go for center mass... it's most likely a kill if placement is right. (or wrong, if you're the one getting shot)

  9. #9
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    Realize that people have been killing people for a very long time, and the law has had literally millenia to sort out the details.

    There are standards in self-defense training regarding justified lethal force.

    If you have not read or taken classes on these points, you really, really, really want to learn about them.

    Hunt up on-line self-defense information, including:

    Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy/Intent (AOJ or AOI), immediacy, unavoidability, innocence
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    116

    Post imported post

    xiphoris wrote
    I was told you should always shoot to kill.

    While I might want to keep some rounds in reserve specifically for unknown other threats, once I've made the decision to shoot, shouldn't I then be attempting to kill him?

    I heard that some practice a strategy of 2 shots to the chest and 1 to the head. This is a reasonable defensive shooting response when the decision to use lethal force has been made, yes?
    Even in a legitimate self defense case having it worded like that in front of jurors that know nothing about guns / real life threats . . sounds almost pre-meditated.



  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Bellwood, Illinois, USA
    Posts
    29

    Post imported post

    More importantly is what you say to the police afterwards. If you choose to speak to them.

    Do you want written in the report tthat you shot him to kill him or do youwant read in front of the jury that you feared for your life and you pulled the trigger as you felt this was the only way to stop the attack.

    Remember your fate could lie in the hands of a anti-gun liberal jury.

    If someone brandished a knife I would brandish my 9 and ask did you bring a knife to a gun fight. That will be enough. No one will attack someone with a knife that has a gun pointed at them.

    And that is exactly what the jury will believe.

  12. #12
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    University Place, Washington, USA
    Posts
    573

    Post imported post

    You should be armed to protect yourself, family and friends. Unless you want to lose a lot of money to a lawyer and to the courts, I suggest you leave other people to defend themselves.

    They have every chance in the world to buy a gun, pepper spray, taser and carry for self defense. If you choose not to, don't rely on me to stop the threat.

    Police are employed to respond to dangerous situations. Be a good citizen and observe and report to 911 what is going on.

  13. #13
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Shoreline, Washington, USA
    Posts
    69

    Post imported post

    If you draw, kill your target. Dont shoot to wound or disable. Eliminate the threat, so that same threat doesnt come after you later.

    Just my humble opinion...

  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    116

    Post imported post

    halal6 wrote:
    More importantly is what you say to the police afterwards. If you choose to speak to them.

    Do you want written in the report tthat you shot him to kill him or do youwant read in front of the jury that you feared for your life and you pulled the trigger as you felt this was the only way to stop the attack.

    Remember your fate could lie in the hands of a anti-gun liberal jury.

    If someone brandished a knife I would brandish my 9 and ask did you bring a knife to a gun fight. That will be enough. No one will attack someone with a knife that has a gun pointed at them.

    And that is exactly what the jury will believe.
    Don't make statements to Police even your own lawyer will say this! Reports aren't read in front of a jury 9/10 times . . witness testimony is the norm.

  15. #15
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    116

    Post imported post

    ScottyDog wrote:
    If you draw, kill your target. Dont shoot to wound or disable. Eliminate the threat, so that same threat doesnt come after you later.

    Just my humble opinion...
    execute > shoot

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    90

    Post imported post

    halal6 wrote:
    More importantly is what you say to the police afterwards. If you choose to speak to them.

    Do you want written in the report tthat you shot him to kill him or do youwant read in front of the jury that you feared for your life and you pulled the trigger as you felt this was the only way to stop the attack.

    Remember your fate could lie in the hands of a anti-gun liberal jury.

    If someone brandished a knife I would brandish my 9 and ask did you bring a knife to a gun fight. That will be enough. No one will attack someone with a knife that has a gun pointed at them.

    If the person with the knife is within 10 feet of you you had better shoot because if he decides to attack you will not have time to respond.

    And that is exactly what the jury will believe.

  17. #17
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    320

    Post imported post

    You know, coming from pretty extensive LE training from the military on use of force, I would have to say that you do not shoot to kill, mame or wound. You simply shoot center mass, to stop the threat. Once the threat is stopped, you administer first aid. Center mass is a two fold target. First, it is the largest part of the body, and during stress you will instinctively aim for the largest part of the body. Second, it contains all of the vital organs are you are more likely to stop the threat from 1-2 rounds to the torso. Head shots can and will land you in hot water, shooting for someones head can give that you intent was to kill and not stop the threat.

  18. #18
    Regular Member trevorthebusdriver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    592

    Post imported post

    halal6 wrote:
    If someone brandished a knife I would brandish my 9 and ask did you bring a knife to a gun fight.
    Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.:celebrate

  19. #19
    Founder's Club Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Fairfax Co., VA
    Posts
    18,766

    Post imported post

    halal6 wrote:
    SNIP If someone brandished a knife I would brandish my 9 and ask did you bring a knife to a gun fight.
    General Comment for all readers: I'm not the brightest fellow. But, I give myself credit for one particular thought when I first started carrying, "I know almost nothing about this subject."

    At that point, I decided I'd better read and study the writings and videos of people who could be considered authorities on the subject. When I can afford a class, I'll take one.

    The main ideas being to recognize whether you really know or not, andto figure out whether the information you have came from reliable source who would really know. Or, was it TV? Uncle Bob who fought in 'Nam? You get what I mean.



    Comment on the post: This ain't Hollywood. Don't play word games. If you have to draw, loudly command him to drop the knife. Repeatedly.Loudenough and often enough that any witness within a mile will tell the police, "All I heard was "drop the knife", like five times, and then pow, pow, pow." (This nugget came from former deputy sheriff andcurrent President of VCDL, Philip Van Cleave. In fact he suggested to keep shouting drop the knife even after the shooting so any witnesses who might confuse the sequencemight at least tell the police they heard the phrase.)
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  20. #20
    Regular Member MadHatter66's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Poulsbo, Kitsap County, Washington, USA
    Posts
    320

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    If you have to draw, loudly command him to drop the knife.¬* Repeatedly.¬*¬*Loud¬*enough and often enough that any witness within a mile will tell the police, "All I heard was "drop the knife", like five times, and then pow, pow, pow."¬*¬* (This nugget came from former deputy sheriff and¬*current President of VCDL, Philip Van Cleave.¬* In fact he suggested to keep shouting drop the knife even after the shooting so any witnesses who might confuse the sequence¬*might at least tell the police they heard the phrase.)
    Also good advice, you want to continue to issue verbal commands to someone as long as you believe they are a threat. Doing so can save you in the long run, and if by some chance BG drops the knife you can hold them at gunpoint until LE arrives, there is nothing that says you cannot. The two most important things I carry to save myself, family and those around me are my weapon and a cell phone. One to neutralize the threat, and the other to call for help afterwards.

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    68

    Post imported post

    DON'T TRY AND BE THE POLICE!!! THERE ARE POLICE OFFICERS FOR THAT PURPOSE!!! BE A GOOD CITIZEN AND CALL 911!!!! Don't try and be a hero.

  22. #22
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048

    Post imported post

    K_Bjornstad wrote:
    DON'T TRY AND BE THE POLICE!!! THERE ARE POLICE OFFICERS FOR THAT PURPOSE!!! BE A GOOD CITIZEN AND CALL 911!!!! Don't try and be a hero.
    Did I just hear someone on a gun forum say that? Are you serious?! If you're in a 7-11 store and a person brandishes a weapon on the clerk, demanding money, you would sit there and call the police, even if the individual in question started assaulting the clerk? That sounds exactly like a statement that an anti-gun home owner would say if their house was broken into or something.

    If I'm in the store, and a robber holds the clerk at gun/knife/weapon point, then I'm not going to just fiddle around and call the cops. I'm going to draw on him and shoot him. Especially if he's got a gun aimed at the clerk.

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    68

    Post imported post

    Aaron1124 wrote:
    K_Bjornstad wrote:
    DON'T TRY AND BE THE POLICE!!! THERE ARE POLICE OFFICERS FOR THAT PURPOSE!!! BE A GOOD CITIZEN AND CALL 911!!!! Don't try and be a hero.
    Did I just hear someone on a gun forum say that? Are you serious?! If you're in a 7-11 store and a person brandishes a weapon on the clerk, demanding money, you would sit there and call the police, even if the individual in question started assaulting the clerk? That sounds exactly like a statement that an anti-gun home owner would say if their house was broken into or something.

    If I'm in the store, and a robber holds the clerk at gun/knife/weapon point, then I'm not going to just fiddle around and call the cops. I'm going to draw on him and shoot him. Especially if he's got a gun aimed at the clerk.
    What I meant to say is that if you are not in the direct line of fire call 911. By all means, if you are in the store when the guy robs the place shoot the guy! What people should not do is try and be the police when it comes to a robber. If you are not in danger of getting hurt, don't risk your life by putting yourself in harm's way.

  24. #24
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Tacoma, Washington, USA
    Posts
    1,327

    Post imported post

    If you are not in danger of getting hurt, don't risk your life by putting yourself in harm's way.
    For sure, unless you have reasonable fear of being killed or suffering serious bodily harm, you aren't justified in using lethal force.

    But how, exactly, are you to determine that in advance? Until the perp (and all accomplices, whether you've recognized them or not) has actually left the premises, you have no idea if the robber is going to move on to harming/eliminating witnesses, etc. There are certain signs that make even more likely (e.g. being herded into a back room), but I would maintain that anyone present at an armed robbery is already at risk of being harmed, and is justified in using lethal force to resist.

  25. #25
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Kent, Washington, USA
    Posts
    2,048

    Post imported post

    Just because *I* myself would not be in direct fear of *my* life, I would be protecting the life of another in my presence.

    RCW 9A.16.050

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    A robber brandishing a weapon directed at another human being fits the "There is imminent danger of such design being accomplished".

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •