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Thread: Stopped in Warren...

  1. #1
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    This actually happened on 07/18/09. I was shopping at the local dollar strore OCin'. Was approached by two Warren LEO's. Here is their report...

    On 7/18/2009 at approximately 1101 hours, D50(PO's Stellman 174 & Kerr 65) responded to a Gun run at 2295 E. 10 Mile Road (Dollar Tree).
    Upon arrival officers spoke to the listed A***** J**** Clark DOB: **/**/****. Clark stated he observed a 2/m approximately 30 years old, wearing a black shirt and hat enter the Dollar Tree store with an exposed gun in a holster on the left side of his hip.
    Officers entered the Dollar Tree store and observed a w/m with a black T-shirt wearing a hat with an exposed gun on his left hip standing near the center isle on the north end of the store. The w/m later identified as Michael B****** T******* DOB: **/**/****. Officer Kerr approached T******* from the isle 1 east of where T******* was standing. Officer Stellman approached T******* from the same isle of where he was standing from the south. Officer Kerr made first contact with T******* and asked him to step to the end of the isle away from all other civilians in the store. Officer Stellman grabbed the left arm of T******* and advised him he was taking his gun temporarily while we investigated further. Officer Stellman secured T*******'s weapon. T******* was patted down for weapons by Officer Kerr. T******* did not disclose he was a CCW license holder. Officer Kerr asked T******* if he has a valid CCW license. T******* stated he does have a valid CCW. Officer Kerr asked T******* where his identification and CCW permit was located on his person. T******* stated his identification and CCW permit were in his wallet in his left back pocket. PO Kerr removed the wallet from T*******'s back pocket and retrieved his identification and CCW license. Officers escorted T******* out of the Dollar Tree store. T******* was placed in the back of D50's marked patrol car during investigation.
    Several things left out and/or added in here. When approached and asked to step aside, I said "no thanks". I was ordered into the isle way where I proceeded to ask if I was under arrest. No. Am I being detained? No. Then I'm free to go? As I turned to walk away. No, stay here. Then I'm being detained? Yea, I guess you are. Do you have a CCW? No, but I have a CPL. Why didn't you disclose? My gun was removed, as was my wallet against my protests that I didn't consent to an illegal search let alone a seizure. Obviously my protests were ignored.

    When asked why I didn't disclose, was my first mistake I believe. I stated I hadn't had time to disclose, which I didn't, as it was the first thing out of her mouth after she confirmed I was being detained. She told me I was to disclose, I told her again that I didn't have time before she asked me immediately after she admitted I was being detained. Some of you may remember the thread I posted about this very subject. It wasn't until I had been escorted out and the adrenaline slowed down that it struck me that I didn't believe I was required to disclose since I wasn't concealing, we I wasn't. However, I think I was too late in informing the officers of this. Had I had the right answer when they asked the first time, I believe that I wouldn't have received a citation, oh well.

    PO Toward 186 arrived on scene. PO Toward questioned T******* as to why he did not reveal he has a valid CCW license. T******* was uncooperative with PO Toward stating he had the constitutional right to open carry his weapon. PO Toward advised him of the CCW law of disclosing the CCW license to an officer immediately upon contact.
    Up until this point, wrong as the officers may have been, they had been fairly professional, not really saying much other than the disclosure thing. Of course, like a schmuck, I didn't have my recorder on me.(truly my first mistake). Once this ***** showed up and I don't hesitate to call him that, things got a bit more interesting.

    Yes, I had been placed in the back of the squad car, but I was pretty confident at this point that they had nothing on me that could stick. This nutsack opens the door and immediately starts yelling at me about getting a CPL and not concealing. I politely informed him that he was spitting on me, to please stop and that the CPL made open carrying much easier. He cussed and slammed the door. At this point I remembered my cell phone and opened it up and started recording with it. Numerous times while in the back(not handcuffed) officer Kerr was in and out of the car, I requested the names and badge numbers and was told I'd get them at the end. Officer penis face sees the phone and opens the door and makes a swipe at the phone, I pulled it away and told him to leave it alone. He told me no phone calls and I informed him I wasn't calling, but recording, he made a second successful grab at the phone, closed it(flip phone) effectively ending the recording. This time lecturing me about having to disclose my CPL immediately, it was during this conversation that I made some sort of reference to the 2nd amendment being all I needed to OC in this particular store.


    T******* was ran thru LEIN/SOS and returned clear. The gun located on Thompson was also ran thru LEIN/SOS and returned clear to T*******. The gun is a 9mm Springfield Armory, Model XD-9, 10 shot, black in color.

    T******* was issued a citation#******* for failure to notify officer upon catace of CCW license.

    Officer Stellman returned the gun to T*******. T******* was released at the scene without further incident.
    Long story short, my firearm was returned to me unloaded of course. I was given the first two officers information while the d-bag sped off almost hitting me on his way out, refusing to give me his information.

    Returned to the store and gathered my things that were in my hands at the time of the stop. Spoke with several employees, educated them a bit. They let me know that it was a customer who was leaving that called, not the store and welcomed me to keep shopping there.

    Spoke with some lawyers, got some quotes and consulted with others wiser and more knowledgeable about my options.

    FOIA'd, contacted the MSP to file a complaint, contacted the FBI filed a complaint.

    Decided, with the incident report in hand, that I had enough facts and evidence that I would attempt to defend myself w/o representation, that and I couldn't really afford or swallow that kind of price tag. I knew with a lawyer it would be dismissed, but why the heck should I have to fork over 3-500 dollars every time an officer who doesn't know the law writes a bad citation? Principle I guess....

    Court was this morning at 10AM. I've been working on my "case" for quite a few weeks gathering up as much info and particularly cite information as I could. Sat in the courtroom for nearly 2 hours before I heard my name called.

    Good morning Your Honor.

    Case dismissed, you're free to go.

    Thank you your honor.

    I had been stressing this for weeks! I knew my case was solid, but you know how things can go, stressssssssssssssssssss! All for that. My 4 seconds of fame

    I can't really bring myself to complain for some reason :P

    Mike

  2. #2
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Good job... and next time I bet you will not make those two minor mistakes!

    NOTE as you most likely know you have NO need to disclose when you are OCing!

    Also that issue with the recording is why I use a dedicated voice recorder and start the recording when I leave my property and end it when I get home. I can then edit the MP3 file to get the parts I need if that comes up. As I carry it in my front shirt pocket or on a lanyard around my neck it is unlikely that they would find it on a pat down unless they are very thorough.

    My recorder will do 56 hours on the highest quality setting and will pick up as far away as 30 feet. If I added a mike it would be even better.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  3. #3
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Trust me it will not happen again. The kick in the butt? This was the same day I received my CPL in the mail.... I was talking about going to the store with my wife when she came in and threw it at me, I got a little too excited and jumped right in the car w/o the recorder

    Never heard anything from the gun board though, that's kind of encouraging

  4. #4
    Regular Member drew68's Avatar
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    Case dismissed, you're free to go.

    AWESOME. Glad you didn't waste money on an attorney for that.

  5. #5
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    I know right :P That would've pissed me off. Would've come out of my gun money

  6. #6
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    What kind of recorder do you have and where are they available.I'm headed for Warren with a friend,a recorder and a video camera.The first amendment gives the right to video anything you please.These pogue cops need to be caught and get in trouble before this will get any better.

  7. #7
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    When approached by anLEO are we required to disclose CPL if open carrying. And I thought stopping you just for open carry was not allowed.

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    I decided not to spend money on an attorney with my situation either. I also figured why waste that amount of money when their are Supreme Court decisions that verify what we are doing is legal. If I would have lost my case I would have probably appealed it and hired an attorney at that time. This is the path I would suggest others go to, but it is totally up to them.

    I'm sorry to hear the BS you had to endure, but glad to hear that all that ended up happening in the end was that they wasted your time. I never filed a complaint after my case was dismissed either, but if it happens again I will take a different course of action.

  9. #9
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    A-hole cops.

    Glad all worked well for you. I would still consider a lawsuit for a 1983 violation of your civil rights as protected under the 14th amendment. I would further pursue criminal action under deprivation of rights under color of law, a potential 1 year felony for each officer involved.

    They have to learn somehow.

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    You should see an attonrey who might take this case on contibgency - you were seized without RAS of any crime, that's unlawful.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    I am not a real big fan of that city. Can't wait for the picnic.

    Great job Mike!

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    thekunk47 wrote:
    When approached by anLEO are we required to disclose CPL if open carrying. And I thought stopping you just for open carry was not allowed.

    Proper Conduct During Encounters with Police

    Responsibilities of Individuals With a CCW License:

    An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.


    http://michigan.gov/msp/1,1607,7-123...0941--,00.html

    According to this if you have a CPL you must disclose.

    Failure to disclose this information to a police officer carries the following penalties:
    First offense = State Civil Infraction - $500 fine and 6-month CCW license suspension.
    Second offense = State Civil Infraction - $1000 fine and CCW license revocation.

  13. #13
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    The ruling that says you must disclose to an LEO when stopped if you are carrying a concealed pistol has nothing to do with open carry unless you have a concealed backup.You have nothing to disclose.Whether you have a CPL or not doesn't come into play in this instance.

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    thekunk47 wrote:
    The ruling that says you must disclose to an LEO when stopped if you are carrying a concealed pistol has nothing to do with open carry unless you have a concealed backup.You have nothing to disclose.Whether you have a CPL or not doesn't come into play in this instance

    I think you're right but im not 100% sure.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Generaldet's Avatar
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    mikestilly wrote:
    thekunk47 wrote:
    The ruling that says you must disclose to an LEO when stopped if you are carrying a concealed pistol has nothing to do with open carry unless you have a concealed backup.You have nothing to disclose.Whether you have a CPL or not doesn't come into play in this instance

    I think you're right but im not 100% sure.
    Sorry Mikestilly, thekunk is right, read what you posted again.
    An individual licensed to carry a concealed pistol who is stopped by a police officer (traffic stop or otherwise) while in possession of a pistol shall immediately disclose to the police officer that he or she is carrying a concealed pistol either on their person or in their motor vehicle.


    If you are OC'ing you do not have to disclose it is in plain sight.


  16. #16
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    mikestilly wrote:
    thekunk47 wrote:
    The ruling that says you must disclose to an LEO when stopped if you are carrying a concealed pistol has nothing to do with open carry unless you have a concealed backup.You have nothing to disclose.Whether you have a CPL or not doesn't come into play in this instance
    *

    I think you're right but im not 100% sure.
    The law is the authority here, not the MSP website.

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-28-425f

    (2) An individual who is licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol and who is carrying a concealed pistol shall show both of the following to a peace officer upon request by that peace officer:

    (a) His or her license to carry a concealed pistol.

    (b) His or her driver license or Michigan personal identification card.

  17. #17
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    Duh I knew the correct answer but for some reason I keep contradicting myself. Glad I haven't been confronted by the police.

  18. #18
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Heh, I was very relieved when she said it was dismissed, but to be honest, I was a little disappointed as well :P

    I had most if not all of my ducks in a row, I felt, for this court proceeding. The first half of my schpeel was all about Terry v. Ohio and the illegality/unlawfulness of the stop, as well as fruit of a poisonous tree. Only ending and wrapping up with the obvious law concerning disclosure to LEO.

    Very happy with the results as my stomach was doing backflips, but like I said I was a little disappointed.

    I wasn't that surprised to be honest. I never did hear from the gun board on the issue, so I believe that they saw the BS in the charge. Also, between the initial interaction with the LEO's the FOIA and all the recent hubbub regarding OC in the news, I figured one of the last things they'd want to do is have OC info broadcast in a courtroom full of alleged law breakers, and potential OCers :P

  19. #19
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    mikestilly wrote:
    Duh I knew the correct answer but for some reason I keep contradicting myself. Glad I haven't been confronted by the police.
    Heh tell me about it. I was a little upset with myself, as I've poured over the info thread as well as the WRR thread, and it wasn't until I was in the back of the car that I really started thinking about it. I'm like, I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I couldn't for the life of me remember what the law said specifically. I chalk it up to the fact that I haven't put that much(enough) research into firearm laws in general, I've been so focused on the legality of OC that I just wasn't prepared for someone to make the leap that they did regarding CC laws.

    You live and you learn, and pray that the bumps and scrapes along the way aren't too bad. I believe the first stop is probably the worst, so I feel a lot more confident and prepared for the next one :P

  20. #20
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    People really need to stop quoting the State Police website.

  21. #21
    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    So we'll see you at the picnic this weekend?

  22. #22
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Me?

    Without a doubt

  23. #23
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    Congrats Fatboy!

  24. #24
    Regular Member FatboyCykes's Avatar
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    Lol, thanks

    Big thanks to Michigander and Veritas as well

  25. #25
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    That's awesome to hear. Those pricks do need to be educated on how to treat people. They act like they are stuck in Russia.



    Good job.

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