Stopped in Warren...

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So we'll see you at the picnic this weekend?

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Me?

Without a doubt

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Congrats Fatboy!

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Lol, thanks

Big thanks to Michigander and Veritas as well

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That's awesome to hear. Those pricks do need to be educated on how to treat people. They act like they are stuck in Russia.



Good job.

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When approached and asked to step aside, I said "no thanks". I was ordered into the isle way where I proceeded to ask if I was under arrest. No. Am I being detained? No. Then I'm free to go? As I turned to walk away. No, stay here. Then I'm being detained? Yea, I guess you are.

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Ya done good up to this point. As I've said before..never ASK if youare free to go ESTABLISH that your ARE leaving:

"Thank you. Having established through your own statements that I am NOT under arrest, NOR being detained I am terminating this encounter and departing forthwith. i leave you in peace and bid you good day!"

When informed that you were being detained respond with:

"Articulate your reasonable suspicion."

MAKE them toe the line. Don't let them bull-dog you into complying with what they WANT you to do (as opposed to whats required by law).

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That's all well and good, but I do not believe their duty to prove RAS is to us, it should be, but it isn't. It is my understanding that they only have a duty to prove RAS to a judge in the court room.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with your assertion, and I didn't really pose it as a question, as much as a statement. Then I'm free to go, said as I was turning away from officer 1 and towards officer 2, officer 1 then said to come to the isle. At this point, they may already have had their "RAS" but again, as I understand it, they have no duty to inform you and I what it is.

Again, I agree that there is no harm in asking though.

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FatboyCykes wrote:

Big thanks to Michigander and Veritas as well

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You're welcome! Twas nothin!

But now I REALLY want to do some massive OCing in Warren. Litter clean ups with press releases, walks because we can, picnics, I wanna go all out and do what it takes to resolve this little *problem* with the police.

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In these situations when pistols are given back unloaded, what would most likely happen if one reloaded it immediately before reholstering, presumably in front of the cop who just handed it back?

I'm guessing most would say that would not be advisable as the cops might get a little jumpy, but maybe racking the slide back as one would normally before holstering would just kind of say, 'yeah that's what I thought you no good, liberty-squashing, gestapo, son of a b****' without actually saying 'yeah, that's what I thought you no good, liberty-squashing, gestapo, son of a b****.'

They should not be seizing and running these pistols in the first place. It's not illegal to load your pistol in public. If the cops jump on you, lawsuit.

I'm not sure what happened in this instance when they handed it back, or if Fatboy Cykes was told not to reload, but in the other recent Warren situation the member was told not to reload until he got home.

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FatboyCykes wrote:

That's all well and good, but I do not believe their duty to prove RAS is to us, it should be, but it isn't. It is my understanding that they only have a duty to prove RAS to a judge in the court room.

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I disagree with that for one very specific reason. If you or someone else is being stopped, (or arrested as I would call what happened to you when you were put in the car), you need to know it's lawful. If you don't, you have a right to resist. How are you to know if a cop has probable cause or reasonable suspicion if they don't tell you?

It's possible that the person who called the cops on you said you were robbing the place. 911 callers have been known to lie. If that had happened, the police would have a legit obligation to do a felony stop on you, even though you'd done nothing wrong.

But that isn't what happened, and technically, as I understand it, you had a right to stand your ground and fight them to stop them. As I always point out, this would be a terrible idea because of massive political repercussions, not to mention the fact you probably would have been killed, but I think it paints a very clear picture. If a cop wants to the SCOTUS to acknowledge his or her right to life during an arrest, it should be made clear that it is legal.

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Ethan_Frome wrote:

In these situations when pistols are given back unloaded, what would most likely happen if one reloaded it immediately before reholstering, presumably in front of the cop who just handed it back?

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I've had this happen to me twice. Once here, once in Free America on a legit stop where the cops thought I was breaking into my own car.

In FA I was carrying chambered, but here I don't, mainly because I don't trust a cop who would disarm me for no reason to understand gun safety. "Back home" I slapped the mag back in, and racked it while they were a few feet from me. At the time we were talking guns because all there were gun enthusiasts.

When it happened here, I merely slapped the mag back in as they were looking at me with disdain over the fact they had nothing on me, then I holstered.

I think it's a very clearly legal thing to do. How in the hell are you supposed to have a "right" to carry weapons to defend yourself and the state if the police can render them inoperable and order you not to restore them to proper readiness? I'm no lawyer, but I'd guess that that would be just about laughed out of court, particularly if you weren't trying to be a jackass as you reloaded.

Most cops who end up wising up enough to give your gun back probably aren't going to be that stupid to try and call that brandishing. But I suppose it could happen.

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Michigander wrote:

Ethan_Frome wrote:

In these situations when pistols are given back unloaded, what would most likely happen if one reloaded it immediately before reholstering, presumably in front of the cop who just handed it back?

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I've had this happen to me twice. Once here, once in Free America on a legit stop where the cops thought I was breaking into my own car.

In FA I was carrying chambered, but here I don't, mainly because I don't trust a cop who would disarm me for no reason to understand gun safety. "Back home" I slapped the mag back in, and racked it while they were a few feet from me. At the time we were talking guns because all there were gun enthusiasts.

When it happened here, I merely slapped the mag back in as they were looking at me with disdain over the fact they had nothing on me, then I holstered.

I think it's a very clearly legal thing to do. How in the hell are you supposed to have a "right" to carry weapons do defend yourself and the state if the police can render them inoperable and order you not to restore them to proper readiness? I'd say that would be just about laughed out of court, particularly if you weren't trying to be a jackass as you reloaded.

Most cops who end up wising up enough to give your gun back probably aren't going to be that stupid to try and call that brandishing. But I suppose it could happen.

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Good points, but my guess is that there is at least one douche bag LEO out there, probably in Warren, that would say after he gave the pistol back, the subject loaded his mag, racked the slide, and pointed the weapon in my general direction claiming self defense instead of trying to justify his bad shoot on the fact that he was just really pissed he couldn't stick schmidt on the subject.

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While I agree with you, cite it

When they go to a judge to get a warrant to search the house, and the judge grants it, that's all they need. They do not have to tell you anything when they get to your house, other than, we have a warrant.

I don't like it and like I stated before, I don't think it could hurt to ask, but I don't think they are legally bound to give us RAS. It will be the judge in court they have to convince.

When he gave me my pistol back, his hand went immediately to his hip, he did not draw on me, but he handed it back, with the magazine and the extra round that was in the chamber(16+1). He told me to load in my car, I told him I was going back into the store and that I needed to load here. He told me to wait until they were in their car and gone before loading, where ever I did it, but suggested I didn't do it in public. They got in their car, I stepped up against a wall, racked a round, dropped the mag, and replaced the 17 round. Walked back into the store w/o incident and payed for my things.

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Let's call the Macomb Daily and channel 4 and tell them about the walks and cleanups and see if they will advertise for us.Nothing will happen if the media is present.I'm game for lunch at Big Boy's and a walk around Warren anytime we can get 3 or 4 people together.I'll bring the camcorder.Someone should also have a hidden voice recorder.You don't need permission to tape a conversation if you are one of the participants.

George

gekgun@yahoo.com

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thekunk47 wrote:

.I'll bring the camcorder.Someone should also have a hidden voice recorder.

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That goes for any situation when you are open carrying in Michigan. I'm a firm believer that anyone OCing, particularly on their own or in SE Michigan should have minimally 2 recorders with at least 1 hidden, and a cell phone to call for the state police and your attorney. Legal information is also nice, but not as important.

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Seriously.....when do the lawsuits start? This is now the second "incident" with Warren this summer. It's obvious they just don't get it and it's time to hurt them financially.

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I think I need to call the Chief of Warren Police and invite him to the picnic so we can have a little talk about his officers illegal action.

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dougwg wrote:

I think I need to call the Chief of Warren Police and invite him to the picnic so we can have a little talk about his officers illegal action.

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Wasn't he at the last Warren picnic along with his Mobile Command Center?

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The Chief?

I think he may have been there early on but didn't stick around. If memory serves, he was in plain clothes and you would know if he was the chief unless told.



Nonetheless, we need to have a chat with him.

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I have called two or three times to make an appointment with the chief to discuss OC in warren in person. I've been pretty much rejected every time. Apparently he's a busy guy :/