Just got escorted out of Nordstrom/Chandler Fashion Center.

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I think you'll find that only management has the legal authority to speak for the owners.

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Any employee has been hired to, among other things, speak for the owners. We've had a police officer on this board weigh in, and he seems to agree with me, and I imagine he's had to deal with such a situation in more than an academic manner.

If by "such people" you mean the management of an establishment they indeed have been hired to "enforce company " policy. That does not give them the authority to make policy on the fly.

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By "such people" I mean all employees. From the standpoint of strictly criminal law, yes, any employee has the right to eject any person for any legal reason at any time.

If as in this case the so called "manager" refuses to provide any written policy it most likely indicates that there is no policy.

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But there is a policy at that point, written or not. You've just been notified of it: "you can't have that gun in here, you need to leave." That's the policy. There's no legal requirement that it be written. You are compelled to obey it or face a criminal trespass charge.

Private businesses are complete dictatorships when it comes to their own internal policies. They can change them at will, any time they want, as many times as they want, verbal or written, notice or not, and even be selective about who they apply them to. Any employee can have the authority to make policy as they see fit. Whether or not any employee is authorized is none of our business when we have been asked to leave. It's not a matter the criminal court is concerned with.

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Kildars wrote:

Hello All,

This occurred in Arizona, but has to do with Nordstroms.

I was shopping with my girlfriend in the mall for an hour with no problems. I walked into nordstroms and I knew there was going to be a problem because the young teenage girl behind the jewelry counter immediately noticed my sidearm. I saw her talk to one of her co workers, then get on the phone. I didn't know if she was calling the police or the security. However, I finished looking and right as I was about to leave Nordstroms, an african american male named "Sam" from loss prevention approached me. He said that I could not carry on nordstroms because it's private property. I asked him if there was a written policy I could reference, or if he was just making this up on the spot without properly knowing policy. He refused to give me a written copy, saying that it's "private property" over and over again. I explained to him there are no signs on the doors either at the front of the store or the entrance leading to the parking lot. Anyways, I was getting no where with him. I left.

As I was leaving, I went into another store and did some shopping and three security guards and a police officer approached me. Only the security officer spoke to me. He said that I needed to leave because they do not allow firearms on the property. I asked him for a written policy as well, he kinda reached into his pocket and grabbed some papers, then his other security officer friend just chimed in and said "This is private property, you need to leave." I kindly explained that there are no signs on the doors, and I have shopped here multiple times with no issues. He didn't care, he said "We don't have to put signs, but you need to leave now."

I got up to leave, and they escorted me out.

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By your estimates, how much time elapsed:

a) in your interaction with Sam the Nordstrom LP fellow?

b) in your interaction with the 3 SG/1 LEO group?

Also, why did you have to "get up" to leave? Were you seated in the store?

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RCW 9A.52.090
Criminal trespass — Defenses.

In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

(1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or

(4) The actor was attempting to serve legal process which includes any document required or allowed to be served upon persons or property, by any statute, rule, ordinance, regulation, or court order, excluding delivery by the mails of the United States. This defense applies only if the actor did not enter into a private residence or other building not open to the public and the entry onto the premises was reasonable and necessary for service of the legal process.

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Your boss says I stay, which overrides anything someone lower down says.. Those with the authority (corporate) in cases where corporate policy has been established, is the 'law of the land', I obviously have reason to believe that I have the right to stay there if I have in my hand a document from the CEO (In effect, all policies are approved by them) saying my conduct is permitted...

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

RCW 9A.52.090
Criminal trespass — Defenses.

In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

(1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or

...

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Your boss says I stay, which overrides anything someone lower down says.. Those with the authority (corporate) in cases where corporate policy has been established, is the 'law of the land', I obviously have reason to believe that I have the right to stay there if I have in my hand a document from the CEO (In effect, all policies are approved by them) saying my conduct is permitted...

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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That doesn't make any sense, TW. Why wouldn't you stay?

A right unexcercised is a right lost.....

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HankT wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

RCW 9A.52.090
Criminal trespass — Defenses.

In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

(1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or

...

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Your boss says I stay, which overrides anything someone lower down says.. Those with the authority (corporate) in cases where corporate policy has been established, is the 'law of the land', I obviously have reason to believe that I have the right to stay there if I have in my hand a document from the CEO (In effect, all policies are approved by them) saying my conduct is permitted...

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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That doesn't make any sense, TW. Why wouldn't you stay?

A right unexcercised is a right lost.....

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Because I gain nothing by being a belligerent ass.

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I wonder if Hank T gains anything by being a beligerant a$$?

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

HankT wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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That doesn't make any sense, TW. Why wouldn't you stay?

A right unexcercised is a right lost.....

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Because I gain nothing by being a belligerent ass.

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It could easily gain you a free night at the graybar hotel.

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Would I leave just because any employee of a business asked me to?

Probably not.

I see nothing wrong with questioning whether the employee is properly stating the store's/company's policy or just making it up as they go along. One method of doing that is to ask if the employee is able to show a written policy.A more common method is to ask for the manager who I would agree is closer to being an employee who is empowered to speak for the company. Even a loss control/security employee is not necessarily following policy by simply making a statement like that.

I question this entire statement:

"They do speak with the voice of property authority. "Such people" have been hired to represent the business owner. To not obey their lawful orders to leave is to committ criminal trespass."

IANAL but I'm pretty sure that the Shari's waitress (or Best Buy LCS or WalMart Greeter or Albertson's stockboy) cannot order me out of the building and have the full weight of the law behind her if I reasonably requestto speak with the manager on dutyto confirm this is what the business wishes me to do. I am pretty sure that most LEO's are going to reflect that speaking with the manager or most senior person on the premises isn't an unreasonable thing to ask and doubt they will regard those (lesser-ranked) persons as definitive sources for placing someone under arrest or more than a few minutes of detention.


If a manager tells me this is the case for that company or particular location, then asking for a contact at corporate or a higher-level office is appropriate. Also, getting the name of the manager who made the statement seems reasonable as well.

Should you have a major argument over it? No. This is especially true if police are involved. There is nothing to be gained in that case.

Stay calm, collected and rational. Don't make threats. Ask the officers if you are breaking any laws by attempting to clarify company policy. Sure they want to get back to their patrol duties but I think most will agree you're entitled to be ordered out bymanagement rather than the janitor.

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A company doesn't need a sign..

That would be like going over to someones house with your sidearm, and then politely asking you to leave your firearm in the car, because they don't want it on their property. Are you going to ask them where their sign is?

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ecocks wrote:

Would I leave just because any employee of a business asked me to?

Probably not.



IANAL but I'm pretty sure that the Shari's waitress (or Best Buy LCS or WalMart Greeter or Albertson's stockboy) cannot order me out of the building and have the full weight of the law behind her if I reasonably requestto speak with the manager on dutyto confirm this is what the business wishes me to do. I am pretty sure that most LEO's are going to reflect that speaking with the manager or most senior person on the premises isn't an unreasonable thing to ask and doubt they will regard those (lesser-ranked) persons as definitive sources for placing someone under arrest or more than a few minutes of detention.



Stay calm, collected and rational. Don't make threats. Ask the officers if you are breaking any laws by attempting to clarify company policy. Sure they want to get back to their patrol duties but I think most will agree you're entitled to be ordered out bymanagement rather than the janitor.

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I agree that asking to speak with a mgr. is reasonable, but the janitor (or whoever else is there) has no obligation to notify mgmt. if they choose to not honor your REQUEST.

Trust me on this that ifANY employee asks the Police to remove you, you will go on your own, or in the back of a patrol car. I couldn't begin to count how many times I've personally "removed" people from PRIVATE businesses.

This is one of those situations that you definetly won't win, and frankly it reflects badly on all oc'ers.

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Agreed. A letter to the manager after you get home is appropriate. Arguing with the help is not legal.

Don't believe the Walmart greeter represents Walmart? Who would be included in the lawsuit you file after the greeter accidentally breaks your toe with a cart?

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As I said, I find that difficult to believe.

As for the resonsibility of owners for their employees actions on the job, that is a completely unrelated matter.

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ecocks wrote:

As I said, I find that difficult to believe.

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Feel free to be the "guinea pig" then.Let me know how that works out for you!

Believe it or not, it is fact. As I said, I have dealt with these situations countless times, and that is how it works.

Btw, I currently own a business, and have owned several others as well, so I have seen this from the standpoint of the owner, and as aCop.

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Hopefully, it would never come to that.

Truthfully, I don't think you're thinking through what you're saying.

Taking the Shari's waitress as an example. The waitress orders me to leave after having the busboy run to the phone and calling 911 to report a man with a gun. I ask for the manager and she refuses. You walk in the door at that point and she tells you to escort me out. As we approach the door, the manager comes from the back of the restaurant to see why the outside video shows a police car at the door and officers with a customer.He/she says wait a minute and asks the waitress why she is having me leave. He/she then says that isn't the company's policies and he certainly doesn't want a customer ejected for this reason.

You're telling me I'm leaving in the back of a police car because of a waitress telling you I have to?

That's where I doubt this scenario ends with me in a patrol car.

Maybe in NC (IIRC) or somewhere that views this as terrorizing or disturbing the peace, but I sure didn't think WA has a law like that on the books. Unless the waitress or any other citizen is able to somehowclaim they were threatened or endangered, I don't think I'm going anywhere.

What is odd aboutthis whole situation is that fewlow-level employees would call the police without at least informing, if not actually getting the permission of the manager in the first place. Then, most managers are going to come out andinform the customer themselves. I suspect this is true at WM, BB and Albertson's as well.

So it probably doesn't happen very much is my guess.

All that said, even managers do make mistakes and a price is exacted.

A BB store in Indiana a few years ago got into a situation where an assistant storemanager insisted to police that BB had a "No Guns Allowed" policy. The officer informed the concealed carrying citizen involved that he would have to leave but also informed the manager that the store needed to properly post their store if that was the policy. The man left on his own accord (after returning $1500-1600 in merchandise he had just purchased).

Signs went up for 2-3 days, lawyers got involved, the signs came down and the citizen says he agreed not to sue in return for an undisclosed settlement. In fact, like most large corporations, there is no policy other than adherence to local laws for each location.

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If after being asked to leave by any employee, you then refuse to leave when told by an Officer, you are now arrestable. Most people are not stupid/bullheaded enough to push it this far, but I have seen some who did.

When the Police are called, they then become agents of the business,and can physically remove and/or arrest someone who remains at that point. It is up to the Officer onscene to decidethe course of action.

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Johnny Law wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

HankT wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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That doesn't make any sense, TW. Why wouldn't you stay?

A right unexcercised is a right lost.....

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Because I gain nothing by being a belligerent ass.

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It could easily gain you a free night at the graybar hotel.

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Did you read the law I posted?

I go over to a friends house, his wife tells me to leave, my friend (her husband) tells me I can stay. She calls the cops, do I get arrested? Absolutely not, because I have permission to be there... Even though the wife has the legal right to ask me to leave, I've been given permission by someone with authority to be there...

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Johnny Law wrote:

If after being asked to leave by any employee, you then refuse to leave when told by an Officer, you are now arrestable. Most people are not stupid/bullheaded enough to push it this far, but I have seen some who did.

When the Police are called, they then become agents of the business,and can physically remove and/or arrest someone who remains at that point. It is up to the Officer onscene to decidethe course of action.

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Now you've changed the scenario significantly.

The guy was neither ordered to leave by a PO nor was he acting irrationally. He reports that he asked for clarification of policy of the store and then the mall.

I simply doubt that any PD is going to be happy if some citizen is arrested in this scenario and it turns out the manager on duty does not agree that anything justified this. Saying that "the janitor told me to" sure wouldn't work with any boss I ever had and arresting an otherwise calm, rational and law-abiding citizen strikes me as poor judgement on the part of the LEO to let it escalate to that level.

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TechnoWeenie wrote:

Johnny Law wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

HankT wrote:

TechnoWeenie wrote:

Will I stay if I'm asked to leave; NO!. COULD I STAY if I wanted, yes.

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That doesn't make any sense, TW. Why wouldn't you stay?

A right unexcercised is a right lost.....

Click to expand...

Because I gain nothing by being a belligerent ass.

Click to expand...

It could easily gain you a free night at the graybar hotel.

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Did you read the law I posted?

I go over to a friends house, his wife tells me to leave, my friend (her husband) tells me I can stay. She calls the cops, do I get arrested? Absolutely not, because I have permission to be there... Even though the wife has the legal right to ask me to leave, I've been given permission by someone with authority to be there...

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Excellent point in this discussion. Particularly since the husband and wife are co-owners and viewed as equals.

More to the point of this story though is if one of the teenage children says you have to leave and the police don't actually speak to an adult if one is on the premises.

Just like that home scenario I doubt this business situation has happened very often.

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Johnny Law wrote:

If after being asked to leave by any employee, you then refuse to leave when told by an Officer, you are now arrestable.

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Can you please provide some sort of legal citation that suggests that ANY employee has the authority to ask you to leave?

Here is the relevant RCW. I have bolded the part that I believe applies to this discussion.

In any prosecution under RCW 9A.52.070 and 9A.52.080, it is a defense that:

(1) A building involved in an offense under RCW 9A.52.070 was abandoned; or

(2) The premises were at the time open to members of the public and the actor complied with all lawful conditions imposed on access to or remaining in the premises; or

(3) The actor reasonably believed that the owner of the premises, or other person empowered to license access thereto, would have licensed him to enter or remain; or



According to the RCW, if the owner has said it's OK, the janitor has no right to ask you leave.

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PS Anyone else getting tired of the sarcastic "get arrested and argue that to the judge. Let us know how it works for you" argument? Perhaps we could drop that any time we disagree on an interpretation of the law.

We all understand that there is an inherent risk in pushing the boundaries of the legal system. I go through this with OC and with motorcycle helmets. I am willing to test things in both areas to a certain extent. Smart a$$ comments about the legal system designed to reinforce the idea that "I am right, you are wrong" don't advance the discussions and are annoying. At least to me.