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Thread: Gun owner says police violating his rights. FayObserver.com

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    http://www.fayobserver.com/Articles/2009/08/21/925616


    George Boggs thought he was doing police a favor last week when he handed over the firearm he kept in his car after he was in a wreck.

    Boggs has a permit to carry a concealed weapon, and he wanted his handgun secured while he went to the hospital, he said. The permit requires him to notify police of his weapon.

    On Monday, when he went to the Fayetteville Police Department to retrieve his gun, he couldn't get it back. He was told that police first wanted to fire the gun to see if the spent shell casing and round would match data in a nationwide ballistics inventory used to solve crimes.

    The gun is scheduled to be test-fired today, he was told.

    Boggs complained to police supervisors that his new gun has never been fired. The ballistics test, he said, would diminish the value of the .45-caliber Taurus Millennium he bought last month for $399 at a local gun store.

    He said the city is violating his Fourth Amendment rights that protect him from unreasonable searches and seizures.

    Police defend their decade-old policy of checking most handguns that come into their custody - no matter the reason - to see if they have been used in a crime. They say public safety outweighs any inconvenience to the owner.

    Boggs said he did nothing wrong. He was not arrested. The gun was not taken from a crime scene. The other driver in the Aug. 14 accident was cited, a police report says.
    "If they can get away with this, then they can get away with other things," he said.

    Boggs, 70, is a retired Army sergeant first class who is running for City Council this fall against incumbent Robert Massey in District 3. He said his fight over the police policy is not politically motivated.

    Sgt. John Somerindyke said in situations such as this, police can't assume a weapon has never been used.

    "We have to be consistent with our policy," he said. "We have had some hits doing this."

    Somerindyke said that since 2003, the ballistics tests have identified 32 guns that were used in crimes in Cumberland County.

    Since 1999, the Police Department has sent most handguns taken into custody to the Cumberland County Sheriff's Office, where the ballistics examination is done free for law enforcement agencies. The information is entered into the Integrated Ballistics Identification System, which is like a database of fingerprints for guns. Shell casings recovered at crime scenes can be matched with guns previously entered into the database.

    Since January, the police agency has sent 331 guns and 315 shell casings and rounds to the Sheriff's Office for testing.

    Boggs said he is talking with officials at the National Rifle Association about his situation. A representative of the NRA could not be reached for comment this week.

    Tiffanie Sneed, the Police Department's lawyer, said the gun-testing policy helps make the community safer. People sometimes buy guns not knowing they have been used in crimes. The weapons are returned to their owners if the tests show they were not used in crimes, she said.

    "Due to the gravity of the subject matter, we don't deviate from this policy, as long as the weapon meets the IBIS criteria," she said.

    Boggs said others with concealed-weapon permits could be less likely to tell police they have a gun, for fear of it being taken and tested.

    According to Debbie Tanna, a Sheriff's Office spokeswoman, all firearms are tested at the factory before being sent to dealers. Bernard Barr, who helps manage Guns Plus in Spring Lake, said he doesn't believe that's true. Some manufacturers don't test weapons before shipping them, he said. That includes the Taurus Millennium model that Boggs bought, he said.

    Barr said firing a new weapon for ballistics doesn't necessarily lower its value.
    Barr said he personally has no qualms with the police testing weapons seized as evidence - but not guns voluntarily surrendered for safe-keeping.

    "It's like taking DNA from every citizen," he said. "Why investigate something that is not a crime? It just doesn't make sense."

  2. #2
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    Cop bashing is not allowed here.

    http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=11042146

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    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
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    Correct, but to say that this department is abusing its power is not bashing.

    Learn the difference please.

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    thx997303 wrote:
    Correct, but to say that this department is abusing its power is not bashing.
    "You say toe-may-toe. I say toe-mah-toe..."

    Learn the difference please.
    That depends on the moment and mood for you.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    Cop bashing is not allowed here.

    http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=11042146
    A warrant for a blood test I could see but not a forced cath! The leo involved here was going out of his way to be a jerk and I hope that he gets fired. A suitable settlement would be for him to be cuffed for the guy who he forced to be cathed to get to return the favor personally.

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    FrankC wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    Cop bashing is not allowed here.

    http://www.nbc-2.com/Global/story.asp?S=11042146
    A warrant for a blood test I could see but not a forced cath! The leo involved here was going out of his way to be a jerk and I hope that he gets fired. A suitable settlement would be for him to be cuffed for the guy who he forced to be cathed to get to return the favor personally.
    The sick thing is that when I googled "police" and "catheter," I found that this story wasn't the only time police have interfered with catheters:

    http://jonathanturley.org/2008/05/16...-innocent-man/

    By the bye, Doug, I stipulate to your implicit argument. Now what? Just why do we citizens have these guns?





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    Yeah I saw that one too, pretty messed up. I would guess that they got a little bit of a talking to later that day, if the persons responsible lose their jobs over it that will be a blessing for other residents. I would love to hear what excuse they had for yarding out the guy's catheter, last I knew they were supposed to be cops and not doctors.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    By the bye, Doug, I stipulate to your implicit argument. Now what? Just why do we citizens have these guns?
    Because we can, because we are citizens and allowed to decide, on the cusp, whether to live a subject or die an armed citizen.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    thx997303 wrote:
    Correct, but to say that this department is abusing its power is not bashing.
    "You say toe-may-toe. I say toe-mah-toe..."

    Learn the difference please.
    That depends on the moment and mood for you.
    smoking, you are smoking something.

    Pointing out that a department is abusing power isn't "bashing."

    Labeling all LE as JBT is bashing. Pity you cannot seem to accept (or recognize) the difference.
    Do you have a point to your post, other than to point out that you do not see the difference?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    Regular Member buster81's Avatar
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    How does a post go from a possible gun rights violation, to a discussion of catheter insertion?

    Does anyone have an opinion about the OP? It seems like a bad policy to me. I've never really thought of what I'd do in that situation, but I suppose I would take it to the hospital with me, under cover.

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    buster81 wrote:
    How does a post go from a possible gun rights violation, to a discussion of catheter insertion?

    Does anyone have an opinion about the OP? It seems like a bad policy to me. I've never really thought of what I'd do in that situation, but I suppose I would take it to the hospital with me, under cover.
    its a smoking trademark. Derail and obfuscate.

    The OP story looks like a clear case of 4th am violation. Also, it is a new firearm. It has not been fired, yet the LE plan to fire it to see if it has been used in a crime already??

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    wrightme wrote:
    buster81 wrote:
    How does a post go from a possible gun rights violation, to a discussion of catheter insertion?

    Does anyone have an opinion about the OP? It seems like a bad policy to me. I've never really thought of what I'd do in that situation, but I suppose I would take it to the hospital with me, under cover.
    its a smoking trademark. Derail and obfuscate.

    The OP story looks like a clear case of 4th am violation. Also, it is a new firearm. It has not been fired, yet the LE plan to fire it to see if it has been used in a crime already??
    Aside from taking the owners word for it, how would the police know if it had been fired?

    I agree with this guy: "Barr said he personally has no qualms with the police testing weapons seized as evidence - but not guns voluntarily surrendered for safe-keeping."

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    wrightme wrote:
    Labeling all LE as JBT is bashing.
    Straw man.


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    buster81 wrote:
    How does a post go from a possible gun rights violation, to a discussion of catheter insertion?
    You can't see the forest, for the trees.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    wrightme wrote:
    Labeling all LE as JBT is bashing.
    Straw man.
    So what? It is an accurate statement. Whether you wish it to be a strawman or not, it is accurate.



    The OP is not 'LE bashing,' and I pointed this out. Further, I presented a statement that describes an action that does fit the definition of 'LE bashing.' That is not a strawman. Why do you think it is a strawman?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    smoking357 wrote:
    buster81 wrote:
    How does a post go from a possible gun rights violation, to a discussion of catheter insertion?
    You can't see the forest, for the trees.
    Stop being a liar.

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    I believe the police are acting way beyond their authorityby seizing the accident victims gun, and performing tests on it when there is absolutley no suspicion or probable cause that the firearm or its owner have ever been involved in a firearm related crime.

    On the catheter issue.
    I hope this really alarms some WI residents and makes them take action whenthey find out that WI courts also allow unwarranted searches and seizures of bodily fluids!
    If a police officer stops you for suspicion of DWI in WI, and you pass the roadside BACinvestigation,theyare allowed to force a blood draw against your will at a hospital with you having no way to stop the illegal search and no legal recourse against them.

    I do not do very well with needles being inserted into me, and I would get violent if someone tired to force a hypodermic needle into me against my will or my wishes. I contacted my representative, and a few other lawmakers in the state to voice my concerns. The common reply I got was "Then don't drive when drunk, and you got nothing to worry about".
    I think that is a bullschitt statement for a few different reasons, First off I do not drink alcohol. But that still leaves plenty of room for the police to force a blood draw from me and conduct a toxicology screening if they want to be dickheads.
    I would fully expect to be arrested, jailed, and cited for multiple items including but not limited to battery of a public servant, and maybe even mayhem or manslaughterfor the damage I would cause if someone tried to force a needle into me against my will.

    We need some protections against police departments that are going beyond their authority. Especially in WI, This all ties into our 2A rights, because the rest of our protected rights are being trampled on too and we need to put an end to it.


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    The police again violate the rights of The People and you guys argue about LEO bashing? WHAT are you doing? I repeat here what I said earlier on another thread:

    "Many postings on this forum have shown me that you are very well informed and skillful communicators. I also see, I think, a serious need of The People for organized resources to fight for the rights of The People. Might you allow a very ordinary old man to make a suggestion?

    I have seen now two cases that have been brought by GeorgiaCarry.org on behalf of folks whose rights have been violated. We need for many more cases to be brought in many more states. From my own experience, I have found that this is very difficult for the individual to do if that individual doesn’t have a large amount of money with which to hire an attorney. Given the number of potential cases and the hours needed for each case, pro bono is too much to expect. And, given, as I have been told, the relatively low awards usually given, contingency fee seems tantamount to pro bono.


    So, it seems to me that one of two things needs to happen. Either lawyers must be found all over the country who are willing to work for nothing, or next to it, or funds need to be raised to support individuals to pay lawyers to bring their cases.

    Someone has suggested that we pool our resources and hire one lawyer to fight these cases all over the country. If you all want to do that, then please do. But, please do something. I ask you to please focus your energy, skills and knowledge, at lease in part, upon the task of meeting the need of The People for legal resources. I understand that many of you may, especially if you are law students, need to develop your skills in arguing your points and in the giving of advice, but, perhaps you could also take the time to engage in the actual doing[/i] of such a project as I am suggesting.

    (Anticipating the tendency I seem to see on this forum for the giving of advice, I feel compelled to say that to advise me as to how I might do this project would be to no avail. In my 71 years, I have never succeeded at much of anything. And, now I will not have time to try. As my retirement income has dried up, I must seek employment. I thought of handing out carts at the big W, but, I think that would only last until the first time my supervisor chided me for letting an OC-er slip by uh-harassed. And, the present battle in which I am engaged here in the Loveland case will take the rest of my time and energy.)"


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    1. policy of checking most handguns - no matter the reason They ignore the basic rights of The People

    2. public safety They recite their national mantra to justify ignoring the basic rights of The People

    3. inconvenience to the owner And, they trivialize the basic rights of The People.

    The scary thing is that they think they are doing the right thing. They do this all across the country. We mustWORK to put a stop to it. The good thing is that these cases are so typical in so many ways, we cantake up the taskalmost anywhere. But, weMUST take action. We must jump on cases like this when they come up - pull together resources - and fight these cases as if our freedom depended upon US.

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    I'm sure the results of this test (thats for the publics safety) will catalog his weapon also. Sneaky, but an effective guise. It's always about safety or the children with the nazi's, faciest, socialists or whatever.

    And it is our fault for letting them get away with it. As citizens we have no recourse but to sue, if one can live long enough. I don't trust any uniform and I've worn one. Least of all the suits running this country, and us with it, into the ground.

    I know, I know! Rant, Rant, rant. But I feel better now. Just one more thing. "Screw the U.N." I say this, becuase everytime I log into this site my computer gets all funny. I don't care anyway. But if it's being watched and they read this. Maybe they can understand, "Go $*@? yourselves!"

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    lukeshort wrote:
    "Screw the U.N." I say this, becuase everytime I log into this site my computer gets all funny.
    Maybe it has a sense of humor?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    One more thing. Some of you people give way to much credit to LEO's. Why would someone do that when all they really are, are revenue collectors? They do not stop crime. They investigate it. And will use your god givin right of self preservation against you in court. Everytime the state comes up with a new extortion scheme (mostly for public safety) the cops are the enforcement tool. That doesn't sound noble to me. Read the minutes of state legislaton meetings. Fines are the subject of revenue constantly. It's not safety concerns, it's all about revenue and control. So salute till your hearts content and they eventually pull the rug out from under you. I have more respect for the mail man.

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    wrightme wrote:
    lukeshort wrote:
    "Screw the U.N." I say this, becuase everytime I log into this site my computer gets all funny.
    Maybe it has a sense of humor?
    Maybe, but your funnier. That was a good one. In a second grade sort of way.

  24. #24
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    lukeshort wrote:
    wrightme wrote:
    lukeshort wrote:
    "Screw the U.N." I say this, becuase everytime I log into this site my computer gets all funny.
    Maybe it has a sense of humor?
    Maybe, but your funnier. That was a good one. In a second grade sort of way.
    Why, thank you.

    By "funny," what did you mean? And do you seriously think the U.N. has any impact upon the "funny" quotient of your computer? Is that a tracking chip I see?
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    What do you mean, funny? Funny how? Funny like he's a clown, lije he's here to amuse you? Just what the F do think is so funny about him?

    Sorry, couldn't resist.



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