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Thread: Pastor Killed in Drug Investigation

  1. #1
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    http://news.aol.com/article/pastor-j...n/637165#axs76

    The way I read it, this was murder, plain and simple.

    Thepastor did not want to talk to police, so he attempted to drive off. I'm sure he did not know there was an officer who had positoned himself behind the car.

    The investigation involved a drug suspect who had been dropped off earlier.

    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??




    ATLANTA (Sept. 4) -- Plainclothes officers shot and killed a small-town pastor when the 28-year-old father-to-be resisted efforts to question him about a passenger in his car who was the target of a drug sting, authorities said.

    Jonathan Paul Ayers of Shoal Creek Baptist Church in Lavonia wasn't targeted in the probe that ended in gunfire at a gas station Tuesday, Georgia Bureau of Investigation spokesman John Bankhead said. But drug task-force agents opened fire on him after he tried to avoid them, putting his car in reverse and striking one of the officers.
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    Matt Carpenter, AP
    Pastor Jonathan Paul Ayers, seen with his wife Abby in an undated family photo, was due to become a father.


    "Any question of his character, particularly involving something like drugs, is just ridiculous," he said.

    Carpenter said Ayers and his wife had wanted to live in a town closer to their family, but they settled near the Lavonia church where Ayers felt called to be a pastor.

    "They were exactly where they were supposed to be," Carpenter said, adding that they had recently led the small congregation's first mission trip, to Africa.

    Carpenter said Ayers' wife, who is 16 weeks pregnant, is grappling with the idea of being a single mom.

    "That's why it's hurting us all so badly," he said.
    Ayers' wife declined to speak to The Associated Press.

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    Founder's Club Member PrayingForWar's Avatar
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    WheelGun wrote:
    The way I read it, this was murder, plain and simple.

    Thepastor did not want to talk to police, so he attempted to drive off. I'm sure he did not know there was an officer who had positoned himself behind the car.

    The investigation involved a drug suspect who had been dropped off earlier.

    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??


    Murder? Not quite. Even if the pastor (who just looks like a kid to me) didn't know there was someone behind his car, he would have been liable for their injury or death in any circumstance. The fact that there were obviously police around telling him to stop seems to me to mean the "pastor" f^cked up, plain and simple.

    That said, I'll repeat ad nauseam, the war on drugs fought against the civilian population is causing at least as big a problem as the damn drugs themselves. We should be able to stop the import if we put the resources into it. I don't think legalization is the answer, but obviously the current policy is not working at best.
    If you ladies leave my island, if you survive recruit training. You will become a minister of death, PRAYING FOR WAR...

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    question him about a passenger in his car who was the target of a drug sting


    A pastor may not be required to tell what was said to him in confidence/confession/etc, however they are not above the law. Even though he was not wanted for questioning, by attempting to drive off, he could likely be charged with either accessory (after the fact) or aiding and abetting... Furthermore, as posted by PrayingForWar, if you hit someone with your vehicle, you are responsible weather you knew about it or not, I believe that is where 'involuntary' comes from.
    Did the cops use excessive force? Possibly, but without the rest of the story, there is no way to tell. I will refrain from calling this 'murder' until I see a 'preponderance of evidence'.

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    Clergy is not immune to interacion to LE in the line of duty..I hope he was a legitimately good god fearing preacher, if so he's reaping his rewards of eternal bliss as we type, if not,, oh well you know!!

    It was Stupid onthe preachers part to avoid/attempt to avoid the Police. He's just lucky he won't be preaching in prison, he'd be working overtime in there.

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    The video doesn't show enough detail to know what level of interaction took place before the pastor tried to leave. The LEO's aren't uniformed so if they didn't identify properly then I don't blame the guy for trying to get away. I don't see anything on the video that justifies them opening fire on the guy. Still there isn't enough on the videoto really come to any conclusions.

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    Is this the same bunch of coppers who held the circular firing squad on Granny a few years ago? Then lied about it? Has the same smell to me.

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    PrayingForWar wrote:
    Even if the pastor (who just looks like a kid to me) didn't know there was someone behind his car, he would have been liable for their injury or death in any circumstance. The fact that there were obviously police around telling him to stop seems to me to mean the "pastor" f^cked up, plain and simple.
    "The fact"? You may not have watched the surveillance video. I suggest you do.

    It shows that the pastor was already starting to back out when a man in ghetto clothing jumped out of a tricked-out Escalade and ran towards him while yelling and pointing a gun at him. He floored it in response, as would I. As, I suspect, would you or anyone else on this forum.

    Any injury to the officer who positioned himself behind the moving vehicle should be attributed equally to: (A) his own dumb ass for being there in the first place; and (B) the officer who provoked the startled response of the driver.


    That said, I'll repeat ad nauseam, the war on drugs fought against the civilian population is causing at least as big a problem as the damn drugs themselves.
    We agree 100% there!

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    Any shooting like this by a civilian would end with the shooter locked up for a very long time. If someone jumped out of an escalade in civilian clothing and ran up to my car with a gun I would likely do the same thing.

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    WheelGun wrote:
    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??
    It's time, people.

    Know the three rules:

    1. Police are an army whose enemy is the People.

    2. Police are the greatest enemy America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

    When we see a car pulled over, we need to realize that there is a citizen at risk. We need to start defending each other.

    It's time we all remembered what open carry is all about, and it ain't protection against burglars.

    It's time.

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    PrayingForWar wrote:
    Murder? Not quite.
    How can you sleep at night? How can you look yourself in the mirror?

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    smoking357 wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??
    It's time, people.

    Know the three rules:

    1. Police are an army whose enemy is the People.

    2. Police are the greatest enemy America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

    When we see a car pulled over, we need to realize that there is a citizen at risk. We need to start defending each other.

    It's time we all remembered what open carry is all about, and it ain't protection against burglars.

    It's time.
    Surely, Smoking, you are not suggesting we shoot or threaten to shoot police officers. Would it not make sense to recognize that things are as bad as you suggest and, therefore, that we must seriously organize to take legal action - quickly and decisively - to get courts all across America to sanction errant cops?

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    opencarrybilly wrote:
    smoking357 wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??
    It's time, people.

    Know the three rules:

    1. Police are an army whose enemy is the People.

    2. Police are the greatest enemy America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

    When we see a car pulled over, we need to realize that there is a citizen at risk. We need to start defending each other.

    It's time we all remembered what open carry is all about, and it ain't protection against burglars.

    It's time.
    Surely, Smoking, you are not suggesting we shoot or threaten to shoot police officers. Would it not make sense to recognize that things are as bad as you suggest and, therefore, that we must seriously organize to take legal action - quickly and decisively - to get courts all across America to sanction errant cops?
    You have lost your faith in the cops, but you still have faith in judges? You must not deal much with judges.

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    Smokin':

    I have faith only in god. Cops and judges are human. I think that there are good cops. I think they seem to be intimidated into silence by the bad ones. As to judges, I do not deal much with them. But, I do see that some of them have decided in favor of the rights of gun owners (Florida v. I. L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375 (2000), United States v. Dudley, 854 F.Supp. 570, 580 (S.D.Ind.1994), etc.)

    Therefore, I think that the best way to makechange for the better is to assertively, perhaps even aggressively,pursue many manycourt cases. That will take a lot of money. So, let us all get busy and get a lot of people to raise a lot of money.


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    I agree that the problem is that the people don't hold the police accountable often enough. Lawyers often want mega damages in cases for civil rights or they aren't interested.

    I think it is time for pro-se lawsuits against the cops. These are more of a death by a thousand cuts type of punishment. You figure each case runs 25-50k x the number of bad police interactions, it won't take long for bad cops to start costing several multiples of their salaries in legal fees.

    I think it would be hard for a city manager to keep paying a guy 55k per year that costs half a million in lawsuits and legal fees per year.

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    opencarrybilly wrote:
    Smokin':

    I have faith only in god. Cops and judges are human. I think that there are good cops. I think they seem to be intimidated into silence by the bad ones. As to judges, I do not deal much with them. But, I do see that some of them have decided in favor of the rights of gun owners (Florida v. I. L., 529 U.S. 266, 120 S. Ct. 1375 (2000), United States v. Dudley, 854 F.Supp. 570, 580 (S.D.Ind.1994), etc.)

    Therefore, I think that the best way to makechange for the better is to assertively, perhaps even aggressively,pursue many manycourt cases. That will take a lot of money. So, let us all get busy and get a lot of people to raise a lot of money.
    Not only will it take a lot of money, it will take a lot of time, and those cases you cited are appellate cases. If the trial court tosses you out, and the appellate court declines to review the case, which happens a lot, where do you go?

    Then, even if you have finality from the courts in the way of one of these prized rulings, the cops can ignore it, and what do you do?

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    Now we're talkin', Smoking. I don't know what "pro-se" means, but I think we're talkin

    Now, let us follow up with action. What say? I don't know how to raise funds or find lawyers or talk effectively with them, but I am sure you can do some of those things and I am confident that some people who read this can do what you and I cannot. What say, man? At lease let us you and I follow up. I must go to bed now. Us old guys need to get to sleep early 'cuz we always need to get up at night to . . . If you wish, you could send me a PM. I'll return to you in the AMand we can get the ball rolling.


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    Then, even if you have finality from the courts in the way of one of these prized rulings, the cops can ignore it, and what do you do?

    Keep trying until someone comes up with a better way.




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    Something rotten in the state of Georgia. Hamourkiller nailed it. But you guys just keep over analyzing.

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    smoking357 wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??
    It's time, people.

    Know the three rules:

    1. Police are an army whose enemy is the People.

    2. Police are the greatest enemy America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

    When we see a car pulled over, we need to realize that there is a citizen at risk. We need to start defending each other.

    It's time we all remembered what open carry is all about, and it ain't protection against burglars.

    It's time.
    Strange--I've been pulled over5 times, and I've been a passenger in a vehicle that was pulled over. Not once have I felt threatened or in danger.

    On the other hand, I'm always polite to LEOs, and make sure that I don't do anything that could be construed as threatening. It pays off--I've gotten a couple tickets, but never have I been ticketed with everything that I could have been.

    By the way, smoking357, I'd like to propose a little challenge to you. Have somebody parade in front of youa mixture of off-duty LEOs in their street clothes along with other people. Unless LEOs give off a special smell or something that nobody else knows about, you won't be able to tell who's a LEO and who isn't. As a matter of fact, I bet that you've passed within a few yards of off-duty LEOs and never knew it.

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    Flyer22 wrote:
    As a matter of fact, I bet that you've passed within a few yards of off-duty LEOs and never knew it.
    They tell me that they're never off duty, so they are due a take-home car and freebo taxpayer gas.

  21. #21
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    smoking357 wrote:
    WheelGun wrote:
    No one has to talk to the police. The pastor was not under arrest. He was not a suspect. A clergyman does not have to talkaboutany counseling he has done, unless the suspect is dangerous.

    WHAT THE F#&* IS GOING ON WITH OUR POLICE ?!!??!!??!!??
    It's time, people.

    Know the three rules:

    1. Police are an army whose enemy is the People.

    2. Police are the greatest enemy America has ever faced.

    3. America would be better off without the police.

    When we see a car pulled over, we need to realize that there is a citizen at risk. We need to start defending each other.

    It's time we all remembered what open carry is all about, and it ain't protection against burglars.

    It's time.
    Uhm, so we should just go and walk up OCing to the officers and like Danbus did in Suffolk, say, "What's going on" to them?

    That, among other things, risks conviction just like happened to him...



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    Give me a break. Wanted for questioning does not demonstrate cause for use of deadly force. Sorry, but they have to play be the rules and follow up with him later. It's not like he's a fugitive on the run. They can find him at home or at church any day of the week.


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    CoonDog wrote:
    Give me a break. Wanted for questioning does not demonstrate cause for use of deadly force. Sorry, but they have to play be the rules and follow up with him later. It's not like he's a fugitive on the run. They can find him at home or at church any day of the week.
    Not any more. Now they can find him at the cemetery.


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    You know something guys, I agree with .357 on 2 of his 3 rules, The police are dangerous!

    If I see someone pulled over by police, I usually stop and observe. Then I usually get a face full of screaming ignorant cop when I do this too. I have seen a friends son stopped by the police once so I stopped to ask if he was ok, I was threatened with arrest, gun drawn but kept at low-ready the whole trying to intimidate me game that he lost.

    The reason I stopped was becuase the last time this kid got stopped the cops bullied him into an unwarranted search and kept him on-site for nearly an hour and threatened him with arrest on at least 4 or 5 different charges. I stopped to make sure the kid wasn't mistreated and the police kept control of their tempers. Holding a camera with video capabilities sure changes attitudes real quick. I do not feel we would be safer without a police force, but we need to gain some power back from them and make them liable for their actions. I have seen plenty of shooting videos where cops will run into a car on puprose and call it vehicular assault just to shoot the guy or get more charges on them.

  25. #25
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    Nutczak wrote:
    You know something guys, I agree with .357 on 2 of his 3 rules, The police are dangerous!

    If I see someone pulled over by police, I usually stop and observe. Then I usually get a face full of screaming ignorant cop when I do this too. I have seen a friends son stopped by the police once so I stopped to ask if he was ok, I was threatened with arrest, gun drawn but kept at low-ready the whole trying to intimidate me game that he lost.

    The reason I stopped was becuase the last time this kid got stopped the cops bullied him into an unwarranted search and kept him on-site for nearly an hour and threatened him with arrest on at least 4 or 5 different charges. I stopped to make sure the kid wasn't mistreated and the police kept control of their tempers. Holding a camera with video capabilities sure changes attitudes real quick. I do not feel we would be safer without a police force, but we need to gain some power back from them and make them liable for their actions. I have seen plenty of shooting videos where cops will run into a car on puprose and call it vehicular assault just to shoot the guy or get more charges on them.
    Were you OCing or CCing when you stopped for the friend's son interaction with the cop?




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