Travis Yates' update: Madison, WI Man who openly carried gun will fight disorderly conduct charge

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Passive101 wrote:

DanM wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

My response to this line of questioning was to inquire if there is a rash of people trying to disarm police officers in the city and how many instances of this have occured in the past.

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Or, even more to the point, inquire if there isa rash of people trying to disarm civilian open carriers.

And, when they sputter that they don't know, point them to this website, tell them that thousands of hours of actual open carry are documented, and that the "your gun will get grabbed" myth has been thoroughly debunked.

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In the IN forum . . .

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Link to fact-based sources please (news reports, online police reports, etc.).

Plus, even if true, two incidentsout of the thousands,tens of thousands, or whatever numerous numberof hours of open carry annuallythere are do not pull the myth of the "problem" of your gun being grabbed from the jaws ofdebunkment.

The fear that OC'ers guns will be grabbed is overblown to the point of ridiculousness.

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May be overblown, but it is far from a myth. It has happened in every state at some time including security, LE, and civilian.

The article used to be at indystar.com, but the link isn't working right now. Here is the thread on it.

http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/43792-don_t_bring_a_bottle_to_a_gun_fight.html

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opencarrybilly wrote:

Finally!, It is about time someone takes a stand and fights the legal fight in court that will hopefully get the attention of ignorant police officers all over the state.

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If even half of the people viewing this forum were to "kick in" a little money, and ask others to do likewise, many more cases like this one and likemine would be fought in courts. It is apparently too much to ask lawyers to work pro bono or on a contingency fee (which, due to the small awards usually awarded, is tantamount to pro bono). I have asked every lawyer in the Denver area who is listed on the Cobar website as practicing Constitutional law/civil rights. No takers. Friends of mine have appealed to many others. No takers.

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

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Good points.

What Wisconsin really needs is somebody willing to take the fall at trial and then get one of these Disorderly Conduct cases up on appeal. If all goes well, we will get some good binding appellate precedent.After that, if there is another of thesearrests, the officers willhave a lot more trouble claiming qualified immunity.

That will give OC some teeth in Wiscconsin.

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Passive101 wrote:

May be overblown, but it is far from a myth.

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The myth spoken of is the one anti-OC'ers trot out about the probability of an OC'ers gun being grabbed. It's right up there with their myth about the probability that OC'ers will cause people to go running and screaming and calling the police. Or the myth about the probability that OC'ers will harm the RKBA because their guns are visible andpeople that that offends will call their politicians to enact more gun-control.

Anti-OC'ers speak of those as if they are probable things to be reckoned with. That is the myth.

Possible: yes.

Probable or something to worry about: myth.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. It is not a myth that such things are possible . . . anything is possible. It IS a myth that such things are some kind of statistically significant problem to be concerned about and to be against OC. Thanks for the link, by the way.

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I was just sent a copy of the call made to the police. I do not have any way to put it on the web at this time though. I do have the file. If anyone would like a copy, just give me your e-mail address, and I'll send it to ya. The info that the cop gives out is just a joke. She (the cop) sounds like she hadno idea of OC law at all. Or, maybe the Madison cops do know the law, and just don't want to follow it?...

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The Donkey wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Finally!, It is about time someone takes a stand and fights the legal fight in court that will hopefully get the attention of ignorant police officers all over the state.

Click to expand...

If even half of the people viewing this forum were to "kick in" a little money, and ask others to do likewise, many more cases like this one and likemine would be fought in courts. It is apparently too much to ask lawyers to work pro bono or on a contingency fee (which, due to the small awards usually awarded, is tantamount to pro bono). I have asked every lawyer in the Denver area who is listed on the Cobar website as practicing Constitutional law/civil rights. No takers. Friends of mine have appealed to many others. No takers.

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

Good points.

What Wisconsin really needs is somebody willing to take the fall at trial and then get one of these Disorderly Conduct cases up on appeal. If all goes well, we will get some good binding appellate precedent.After that, if there is another of thesearrests, the officers willhave a lot more trouble claiming qualified immunity.

That will give OC some teeth in Wiscconsin.

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First, I apologize for not crediting J.Gleason for the first quote I quoted, "Finally. . ."

Now, I have been thinking about how we might implement a system for collecting and distributing funds to support people in their court cases. a few ideas came to mind, all rather difficult and long term. Then, I thought maybe folks like you and me could merely send some money directlyto guys like Yates or his attorney. I couldn't find addresses for them. Then, I thought of GeorgiaCarry.org. Why not just go to their website and click where it says "Donate." A good place to start?

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AaronS wrote:

I was just sent a copy of the call made to the police. I do not have any way to put it on the web at this time though. I do have the file. If anyone would like a copy, just give me your e-mail address, and I'll send it to ya. The info that the cop gives out is just a joke. She (the cop) sounds like she hadno idea of OC law at all. Or, maybe the Madison cops do know the law, and just don't want to follow it?...

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Probably the latter. Qualified immunity can be stretched to its breaking point with impunity, and so it is. Tyranny and QI go hand-in-hand.

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N6ATF wrote:

AaronS wrote: Probably the latter. Qualified immunity can be stretched to its breaking point with impunity, and so it is. Tyranny and QI go hand-in-hand.

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No, trust me, qualified immunity is not elastic when it comes to police deciding to detain people carrying guns just because they want to - I will show you why hopefully in the next few hours.

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Mike wrote:

N6ATF wrote:

AaronS wrote: Probably the latter. Qualified immunity can be stretched to its breaking point with impunity, and so it is. Tyranny and QI go hand-in-hand.

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No, trust me, qualified immunity is not elastic when it comes to police deciding to detain people carrying guns just because they want to - I will show you why hopefully in the next few hours.

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Another thread? Oaths of office to support and defend the supreme law of the land, forcing discretion to be on the side of the citizen and not tyrannical infringements, are violated so often it's pointless for them to exist at all.

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I love how just because some "citizen" called in saying he was disturbed by the sight of an openly carried gun, the cops arrest him for disorderly conduct.

Next time I am "disturbed" bya fat chick in a mini skirt, or apersian in a turban I am calling the cops to get those damn law abiding bastards arrested for disorderly conduct. Cause damnit this is America and if I think something is wrong, fcuk due process, I want that person arrested because this is my america, not anyone elses. This is me-land, its all about me!!! ME!!!

fcukpeople piss me off.

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Streetbikerr6 wrote:

I love how just because some "citizen" called in saying he was disturbed by the sight of an openly carried gun, the cops arrest him for disorderly conduct.

Next time I am "disturbed" by a fat chick in a mini skirt, or a persian in a turban I am calling the cops to get those damn law abiding bastards arrested for disorderly conduct. Cause damnit this is America and if I think something is wrong, fcuk due process, I want that person arrested because this is my america, not anyone elses. This is me-land, its all about me!!! ME!!!

fcuk people piss me off.

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You'll probably get cited for abuse of the 911 system. The only time people get away with it is when they report law-abiding gun owners. Full immunity for helping the government violate the only right that shall not be infringed.

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opencarrybilly wrote:

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

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I disagree, it IS the lawyers fight just as it is every free mans fight to protect the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

J. Ruben Clark, Jr. (1871-1961) former Solicitor for the Department of State, Under-Secretary of State, and Ambassador to Mexico on more than one occasion laid blame for our loss of freedom directly on the lawyers who stood by and watched clearly unconstitutional restrictions on rights be passed into law and did nothing.

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rpyne wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

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I disagree, it IS the lawyers fight just as it is every free mans fight to protect the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

J. Ruben Clark, Jr. (1871-1961) former Solicitor for the Department of State, Under-Secretary of State, and Ambassador to Mexico on more than one occasion laid blame for our loss of freedom directly on the lawyers who stood by and watched clearly unconstitutional restrictions on rights be passed into law and did nothing.

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Point well taken. Now, please, could you please apply your obviously superior knowledge and wit to finding a lawyer for my case -for The People? I have already tried everything that I could think of andall of the manysuggestions offered to me. So, I don't need any more advice as to what to do or where to go. When you find the lawyer to take this case, please let me know.

Thanks.

Bill

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opencarrybilly wrote:

rpyne wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

I disagree, it IS the lawyers fight just as it is every free mans fight to protect the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

J. Ruben Clark, Jr. (1871-1961) former Solicitor for the Department of State, Under-Secretary of State, and Ambassador to Mexico on more than one occasion laid blame for our loss of freedom directly on the lawyers who stood by and watched clearly unconstitutional restrictions on rights be passed into law and did nothing.

Click to expand...

Point well taken. Now, please, could you please apply your obviously superior knowledge and wit to finding a lawyer for my case -for The People? I have already tried everything that I could think of andall of the manysuggestions offered to me. So, I don't need any more advice as to what to do or where to go. When you find the lawyer to take this case, please let me know.

Thanks.

Bill

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Might I suggest you contact James D. "Mitch" Vilos. He is Utah's premier gun rights lawyer. I don't know if he practices in Colorado though I do know that he does practice outside of Utah. If he can't take your case, he very well be able to recommend someone who can.

His email is mitchv AT firearmslaw.com

His main phone number is 1-800-530-0222

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rpyne wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

rpyne wrote:

opencarrybilly wrote:

Can't blame the lawyers. It's is not their personal fight. It is up to us - we who profess to care about the right of the people to keep and bear arms.

Click to expand...

I disagree, it IS the lawyers fight just as it is every free mans fight to protect the rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

J. Ruben Clark, Jr. (1871-1961) former Solicitor for the Department of State, Under-Secretary of State, and Ambassador to Mexico on more than one occasion laid blame for our loss of freedom directly on the lawyers who stood by and watched clearly unconstitutional restrictions on rights be passed into law and did nothing.

Click to expand...

Point well taken. Now, please, could you please apply your obviously superior knowledge and wit to finding a lawyer for my case -for The People? I have already tried everything that I could think of andall of the manysuggestions offered to me. So, I don't need any more advice as to what to do or where to go. When you find the lawyer to take this case, please let me know.

Thanks.

Bill

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Might I suggest you contact James D. "Mitch" Vilos. He is Utah's premier gun rights lawyer. I don't know if he practices in Colorado though I do know that he does practice outside of Utah. If he can't take your case, he very well be able to recommend someone who can.

His email is mitchv AT firearmslaw.com

His main phone number is 1-800-530-0222

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You may have noticed the frustration and anger in my posting, so I am very grateful that you responded. What you may not have noticed to this point is my exhaustion. I have followed through, over these past eleven months, enumerable suggestions like yours to no avail. I get very few responses. The ones I do get range from lengthy refusals and good wishes to just simply, "No." Perhaps I have failed to presentthe case in a way that lawyers find compelling or interesting.

Now, this case is not about me. It is about The People, whoserights have been violated with me just the victim of the moment. And, I expect to reap no rewards even if the case does proceed. Knowledgeable people here tell me that awards in these cases fall short of costs. And, even if money were awarded me, I would feel inclined to offer it to the lawyer or pay it forward to the next guy like me so he might pursue his case.

What The People need now is not further trying and failing by me. They need for people like you to take up the phone or the email themselves to make those contacts personally instead of just suggesting them to me.

If you want to be able to inform the lawyer about the case, you can find it all, in detail, on the threads in the Colorado section of this forum that talk about Loveland.

Thanks for your kind attention. Should you find a lawyer who will take this case, (s)he or you cancontact me via the Personal Messages venue of this forum.

On behalf of The People, I wish you luck.

Bill

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Passive101 wrote:

DanM wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

My response to this line of questioning was to inquire if there is a rash of people trying to disarm police officers in the city and how many instances of this have occured in the past.

Click to expand...

Or, even more to the point, inquire if there isa rash of people trying to disarm civilian open carriers.

And, when they sputter that they don't know, point them to this website, tell them that thousands of hours of actual open carry are documented, and that the "your gun will get grabbed" myth has been thoroughly debunked.

Click to expand...

In the IN forum there is a member who had his firearm that didn't have active retention removed from him without his consent or knowledge at a range from a man behind him.

In IN a man in Indianapolis had his firearm taken away from him in a shoulder holster. He was able to use his second firearm to attack the man who took his firearm.

both of these incidents took place just over the past few months. It does happen and will happen again. Active retention and training are required and are more important while open carrying over concealed carry.

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Cite an actual police report or just hearsay?

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Passive101 wrote:

May be overblown, but it is far from a myth. It has happened in every state at some time including security, LE, and civilian.

The article used to be at indystar.com, but the link isn't working right now. Here is the thread on it.

http://ingunowners.com/forums/carry_issues_and_self_defense/43792-don_t_bring_a_bottle_to_a_gun_fight.html

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Cite please. Yes LEO and security have had it happen, but they are in a different position than a non-LEO that OCs. There is no verifiable case of where this has happened. Will it happen, perhaps but even so for the thousands of hours people OC around the USA you are more likely to get hit by lighting then get a gun snatched.

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Venator wrote:

Passive101 wrote:

DanM wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

My response to this line of questioning was to inquire if there is a rash of people trying to disarm police officers in the city and how many instances of this have occured in the past.

Click to expand...

Or, even more to the point, inquire if there isa rash of people trying to disarm civilian open carriers.

And, when they sputter that they don't know, point them to this website, tell them that thousands of hours of actual open carry are documented, and that the "your gun will get grabbed" myth has been thoroughly debunked.

Click to expand...

In the IN forum there is a member who had his firearm that didn't have active retention removed from him without his consent or knowledge at a range from a man behind him.

In IN a man in Indianapolis had his firearm taken away from him in a shoulder holster. He was able to use his second firearm to attack the man who took his firearm.

both of these incidents took place just over the past few months. It does happen and will happen again. Active retention and training are required and are more important while open carrying over concealed carry.

Click to expand...

Cite an actual police report or just hearsay?

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I can't speak to whether it's hearsay or not but if it's not then some poeple need to learn to pay more attention to their surroundings. That's just plain sad.

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The Yates kidnapping appears to have fomented more interst in the petition for Wisconsin:

1703 Total Signatures
:celebrate:celebrate:celebrate

Let's keep the momentum going - get morefolks to sign on! http://www.petitiononline.com/wi1848oc/petition.html

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GlockMeisterG21 wrote:

Venator wrote:

Passive101 wrote:

DanM wrote:

Interceptor_Knight wrote:

My response to this line of questioning was to inquire if there is a rash of people trying to disarm police officers in the city and how many instances of this have occured in the past.

Click to expand...

Or, even more to the point, inquire if there isa rash of people trying to disarm civilian open carriers.

And, when they sputter that they don't know, point them to this website, tell them that thousands of hours of actual open carry are documented, and that the "your gun will get grabbed" myth has been thoroughly debunked.

Click to expand...

In the IN forum there is a member who had his firearm that didn't have active retention removed from him without his consent or knowledge at a range from a man behind him.

In IN a man in Indianapolis had his firearm taken away from him in a shoulder holster. He was able to use his second firearm to attack the man who took his firearm.

both of these incidents took place just over the past few months. It does happen and will happen again. Active retention and training are required and are more important while open carrying over concealed carry.

Click to expand...

Cite an actual police report or just hearsay?

Click to expand...

I can't speak to whether it's hearsay or not but if it's not then some poeple need to learn to pay more attention to their surroundings. That's just plain sad.

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NEWS REPORT OF THE INCIDENT

http://www.indy.com/posts/man-critical-after-attacking-another-with-bottle

A 21-year-old man was shot in the chest this evening after he attacked an armed man with a bottle, police said.
The shooting occurred during an altercation in front of a home in the first block of South Butler Avenue shortly before 9:40 p.m., said Lt. Jeff Duhamell , spokesman for the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department.
The wounded man was listed in critical condition at Wishard Memorial Hospital.Police said the man and a friend exchanged words with a 21-year-old man who had been sitting on a porch and wearing two visible sidearms.One man struck the armed man with a large glass bottle then removed one of the armed man’s handguns and started hitting him with it, Duhamell said. The armed man grabbed his second gun and shot his attacker.Police were questioning the armed man, who Duhamell said has a valid gun permit. The armed man has a gash on his head.The man who was with the shooting victim is also being questioned, Duhamell said.