suntzu
Regular Member
imported post
skidmark wrote:
skidmark wrote:
:lol: now that was funny...thank you skidmark.
-
We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
-
If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
-
Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.
who are the better trained?
- Thread starter U8Dust
- Start date
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
rodbender wrote:
rodbender wrote:
The basics are well known. The details aren't.
DMWyatt
Regular Member
imported post
This thread is kind of funny. If I understand correctly, you guys are arguing about 2 specific groups of operatives who, if we know what they're doing, have failed in a key element of their mission.
I think the fact that there is no obvious solution to the debate says that they're probably good enough at what they do that we'll never know for sure. Knowing the way the lines seem to blur with government agencies and security clearances, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't both carry out duties that overlap at times.
I could be completely off base, but the great thing about it is that it doesn't matter if I am. It's kind of like the Marines/Army feud. So long as they execute their duties faithfully and sucessfully, I have no reason to believe a better has to exist between 2 forces tasked with uniquely different missions.
This thread is kind of funny. If I understand correctly, you guys are arguing about 2 specific groups of operatives who, if we know what they're doing, have failed in a key element of their mission.
I think the fact that there is no obvious solution to the debate says that they're probably good enough at what they do that we'll never know for sure. Knowing the way the lines seem to blur with government agencies and security clearances, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't both carry out duties that overlap at times.
I could be completely off base, but the great thing about it is that it doesn't matter if I am. It's kind of like the Marines/Army feud. So long as they execute their duties faithfully and sucessfully, I have no reason to believe a better has to exist between 2 forces tasked with uniquely different missions.
N00blet45
Regular Member
imported post
Well said.
The CIA and SEALs have completely different roles. Sometimes they may have the same goal but the CIA seems to be centered around gathering information and playing spy games whereas the SEALs are about sneaking in, completing their objective and sneaking out (on a tactical not a strategic level).
Well said.
The CIA and SEALs have completely different roles. Sometimes they may have the same goal but the CIA seems to be centered around gathering information and playing spy games whereas the SEALs are about sneaking in, completing their objective and sneaking out (on a tactical not a strategic level).
rodbender
Regular Member
imported post
Aaron1124 wrote:
Aaron1124 wrote:
If the details aren't readily available, how do you know that they are the elite of the elite fighting force? Shouldn't the proof be in the details? Yes, I think it is.
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
rodbender wrote:
They are commonly considered the best, and most elite. Hell, even back in high school, the Marine Corps recruiter wouldn't stop swinging off of their jock.
2)
They are all hired from Seal Team 6 and Delta. Those two units have the best of the best of the Special Forces. The CIA hires the best of those units. That right there should be enough said.
3)
In 2001, SAD units were the first U.S. forces to enter Afghanistan. Their efforts organized the Afghan Northern Alliance for the subsequent arrival of USSOCOM forces. SAD, U.S. Army Special Forces and the Northern Alliance combined to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan with minimal loss of U.S. lives. They did this without the need for U.S. military conventional forces
" Beginning in autumn of 2001, SAD/SOG Paramilitary teams arrived in Afghanistan to hunt down al-Qa'ida leaders, facilitate the entry of U.S. Army Special Forces and lead the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan against the ruling Taliban. SAD/SOG units also defeated Ansar al-Islam in Iraqi Kurdistan prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Woodward_2004-13[/sup] and trained, equipped, organized and led the Kurdish peshmerga forces to defeat the Iraqi army in northern Iraq.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Coll_2004-11[/sup]
Despite being the most covert unit in U.S. Special Operations, numerous books have been published on the exploits of CIA paramilitary officers, including Conboy & Morrison (1999) Feet to the Fire: CIA Covert Operations in Indonesia, 1957-1958 by Kenneth J. Conboy and James Morrisonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-feettofire-15[/sup] and Warner (1996) Shooting at the Moon: The Story of America's Clandestine War in Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-16[/sup]Most experts consider SAD/SOG the premiere force for unconventional warfare (UW), whether that warfare consists of either creating or combating an insurgency in a foreign country"
The CIA's formal position for these individuals is "Paramilitary Operations Officers". These officers are then fully trained as clandestine intelligence operatives, otherwise known in the vernacular as "spies".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Waller-7[/sup] The primary strengths of SAD/SOG Paramilitary Officers are agility, adaptability, and deniability. They often operate in small teams, typically with six operators, all with extensive military special operations expertise and specialized skills that do not exist in any other unit. They are also fully trained intelligence case officers with all the clandestine skills that come with that training. These officers often operate in remote locations behind enemy lines to carry out direct action (including raids and sabotage), support of espionage by HUMINT assets, counter-intelligence, sabotage, guerrilla or unconventional warfare (UW), and hostage rescue missions.
As such, Paramilitary Operations Officers are trained to operate in all of these areas and environments. Because these officers are taken from the most elite units in the U.S. military and then provided with extensive additional training to be CIA clandestine intelligence officers and SAD/SOG operatives in all these environments, many U.S. security experts assess them as the elite of the U.S. special missions units.
rodbender wrote:
1)
They are commonly considered the best, and most elite. Hell, even back in high school, the Marine Corps recruiter wouldn't stop swinging off of their jock.
2)
They are all hired from Seal Team 6 and Delta. Those two units have the best of the best of the Special Forces. The CIA hires the best of those units. That right there should be enough said.
3)
In 2001, SAD units were the first U.S. forces to enter Afghanistan. Their efforts organized the Afghan Northern Alliance for the subsequent arrival of USSOCOM forces. SAD, U.S. Army Special Forces and the Northern Alliance combined to overthrow the Taliban in Afghanistan with minimal loss of U.S. lives. They did this without the need for U.S. military conventional forces
" Beginning in autumn of 2001, SAD/SOG Paramilitary teams arrived in Afghanistan to hunt down al-Qa'ida leaders, facilitate the entry of U.S. Army Special Forces and lead the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan against the ruling Taliban. SAD/SOG units also defeated Ansar al-Islam in Iraqi Kurdistan prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Woodward_2004-13[/sup] and trained, equipped, organized and led the Kurdish peshmerga forces to defeat the Iraqi army in northern Iraq.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Coll_2004-11[/sup]
Despite being the most covert unit in U.S. Special Operations, numerous books have been published on the exploits of CIA paramilitary officers, including Conboy & Morrison (1999) Feet to the Fire: CIA Covert Operations in Indonesia, 1957-1958 by Kenneth J. Conboy and James Morrisonhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-feettofire-15[/sup] and Warner (1996) Shooting at the Moon: The Story of America's Clandestine War in Laos.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-16[/sup]Most experts consider SAD/SOG the premiere force for unconventional warfare (UW), whether that warfare consists of either creating or combating an insurgency in a foreign country"
The CIA's formal position for these individuals is "Paramilitary Operations Officers". These officers are then fully trained as clandestine intelligence operatives, otherwise known in the vernacular as "spies".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Activities_Division#cite_note-Waller-7[/sup] The primary strengths of SAD/SOG Paramilitary Officers are agility, adaptability, and deniability. They often operate in small teams, typically with six operators, all with extensive military special operations expertise and specialized skills that do not exist in any other unit. They are also fully trained intelligence case officers with all the clandestine skills that come with that training. These officers often operate in remote locations behind enemy lines to carry out direct action (including raids and sabotage), support of espionage by HUMINT assets, counter-intelligence, sabotage, guerrilla or unconventional warfare (UW), and hostage rescue missions.
As such, Paramilitary Operations Officers are trained to operate in all of these areas and environments. Because these officers are taken from the most elite units in the U.S. military and then provided with extensive additional training to be CIA clandestine intelligence officers and SAD/SOG operatives in all these environments, many U.S. security experts assess them as the elite of the U.S. special missions units.
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
If there are missions in countries that are denied to U.S. military special operations forces, such as Pakistan or Iran, SAD/SOG units are the primary national special missions units to execute those operations. In the "Global War on Terror", SAD has the lead in the covert war being waged against al-Qa'ida. SAD/SOG paramilitary teams have apprehended many of the senior leaders. These include: Abu Zubaydah, the chief of operations for al-Qa'ida; Ramzi Binalshibh, the so called the "20th hijacker",; the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, alleged to be the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing and leader of al-Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf prior to his capture in November 2002; and Abu Faraj al-Libi, al-Qa'ida's "field general" believed to have taken the role of No. 3 in al-Qa'ida following the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Pakistan. Prior to the beginning of the "War on Terror", SAD/SOG located and captured many notable militants and international criminals, including Abimael Guzman and Carlos the Jackal. These were just three of the over 50 caught by SAD/SOG just between 1983 and 1995.
Oh yeah, you're right. They're not elite at all, and are a complete waste of tax payer money.
If there are missions in countries that are denied to U.S. military special operations forces, such as Pakistan or Iran, SAD/SOG units are the primary national special missions units to execute those operations. In the "Global War on Terror", SAD has the lead in the covert war being waged against al-Qa'ida. SAD/SOG paramilitary teams have apprehended many of the senior leaders. These include: Abu Zubaydah, the chief of operations for al-Qa'ida; Ramzi Binalshibh, the so called the "20th hijacker",; the mastermind of the September 11, 2001 attacks on New York City and Washington, D.C. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed; Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, alleged to be the mastermind of the USS Cole bombing and leader of al-Qaeda operations in the Persian Gulf prior to his capture in November 2002; and Abu Faraj al-Libi, al-Qa'ida's "field general" believed to have taken the role of No. 3 in al-Qa'ida following the capture of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed in Pakistan. Prior to the beginning of the "War on Terror", SAD/SOG located and captured many notable militants and international criminals, including Abimael Guzman and Carlos the Jackal. These were just three of the over 50 caught by SAD/SOG just between 1983 and 1995.
Oh yeah, you're right. They're not elite at all, and are a complete waste of tax payer money.
rodbender
Regular Member
imported post
Aaron1124 wrote:
Aaron1124 wrote:
Yeah, then MIB selects the best of SAD/SOG.Along withone NYPD detective, his name was J.
MSC 45ACP
Regular Member
imported post
I worked for DevGru as a civilian contractor for a while. Seal Team 6 no longer exists (officially). DevGru has a lot of different missions, Most ofwhich areclassified. They've got some cool toys to play with and their own tech support folks. Selection & trainingprocess alonetakes a yearjust to get INTO the unit.
I've met a few Delta folks.Both units have different missions and share a great deal of respect for each other. Anyone that knows alot about either (or both) units will not go into the details of their missions or capabilities, so this thread is pretty silly in itself.
Go amuse yourself by wondering which wrestler is the best; Rick Flair or Blackjack Mulligan.
I worked for DevGru as a civilian contractor for a while. Seal Team 6 no longer exists (officially). DevGru has a lot of different missions, Most ofwhich areclassified. They've got some cool toys to play with and their own tech support folks. Selection & trainingprocess alonetakes a yearjust to get INTO the unit.
I've met a few Delta folks.Both units have different missions and share a great deal of respect for each other. Anyone that knows alot about either (or both) units will not go into the details of their missions or capabilities, so this thread is pretty silly in itself.
Go amuse yourself by wondering which wrestler is the best; Rick Flair or Blackjack Mulligan.
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
MSC 45ACP wrote:
MSC 45ACP wrote:
Ric Flair, imo. Not Rick.I worked for DevGru as a civilian contractor for a while. Seal Team 6 no longer exists (officially). DevGru has a lot of different missions, Most ofwhich areclassified. They've got some cool toys to play with and their own tech support folks. Selection & trainingprocess alonetakes a yearjust to get INTO the unit.
I've met a few Delta folks.Both units have different missions and share a great deal of respect for each other. Anyone that knows alot about either (or both) units will not go into the details of their missions or capabilities, so this thread is pretty silly in itself.
Go amuse yourself by wondering which wrestler is the best; Rick Flair or Blackjack Mulligan.
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
imported post
What in the blue blazes does this topic have to do with OC, anyway???
:banghead:
What in the blue blazes does this topic have to do with OC, anyway???
:banghead:
rodbender
Regular Member
imported post
Task Force 16 wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
I suppose it's connected because the Navy Seals and CIA SAD/SOG get to OC all the time.
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
^
LOL
^
LOL
MSC 45ACP
Regular Member
imported post
Sorry... the wrestler thing was a sad attempt at humor. I thought both those guys from the 70's were dead by now...
Sorry... the wrestler thing was a sad attempt at humor. I thought both those guys from the 70's were dead by now...
Task Force 16
Campaign Veteran
imported post
MSC 45ACP wrote:
MSC 45ACP wrote:
It wasn't your wrestlers remark, MSC. The thread itself doesn't seem to have anything to do with the OC movement.
Aaron1124
Regular Member
imported post
Task Force 16 wrote:
Task Force 16 wrote:
And it surprisingly has gotten over 30 replies.
ODA 226
Regular Member
imported post
FOX-FORCE-FIVE WOULD KICK ALL OF THEIR BUTTS!!!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction_(film)
FOX-FORCE-FIVE WOULD KICK ALL OF THEIR BUTTS!!!!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulp_Fiction_(film)
PrayingForWar
Founder's Club Member
imported post
Who's better? A unit that doesn't exist or a unit that never did anything (that anyone knows about, but I'm sure if it was significant the russians would have told CNN, which would have "dutifully" informed the masses).
Really, this thread is kind of insipid. There are lots of "special" units in the military, too many if you ask me. In this state of the world, our entire miliatary needs the best stuff, and the best training, so that SOF units can go back to their intended purpose; training foriegn forces to fight their own battles, and when the SHTF, you call Charlie Company. They break $h!t and kill motherf^&^ers.
Who's better? A unit that doesn't exist or a unit that never did anything (that anyone knows about, but I'm sure if it was significant the russians would have told CNN, which would have "dutifully" informed the masses).
Really, this thread is kind of insipid. There are lots of "special" units in the military, too many if you ask me. In this state of the world, our entire miliatary needs the best stuff, and the best training, so that SOF units can go back to their intended purpose; training foriegn forces to fight their own battles, and when the SHTF, you call Charlie Company. They break $h!t and kill motherf^&^ers.
MSC 45ACP
Regular Member
imported post
ODA 226 wrote:
AMEN, BROTHER! CAN I BE THE KNIFE BABE AND YOU TELL THE JOKES?
ODA 226 wrote:
AMEN, BROTHER! CAN I BE THE KNIFE BABE AND YOU TELL THE JOKES?
H
hellotracy
Guest
imported post
I choose Seals haha
_______________________________
the west wing and dallas r my fav shows
I choose Seals haha
_______________________________
the west wing and dallas r my fav shows