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Thread: Question about shooting an unarmed person?

  1. #1
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    Seeing how a lot of people feel it's unlawful and never justified to shoot an unarmed person, tell me how you view this scenario.

    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    Obviously, it would seem to me, that lethal force via a firearm is justified in this scenario.

    Would you agree?

    If so, what sort of circumstances do you feel drawing and firing against an unarmed attacker is justified? When there are multiple attackers? When they're obviously overpowering you and potentially seriously injuring you?

    Obviously if a man approaches your car window in a road rage incident isn't considered to be a justification for using lethal force (although drawing on him might be an option, depending on his attitude and actions) but shooting this unarmed man who has just walked over to your car, doesn't seem like a justified case of lethal force. Now, his actions *after* you draw may lead to a case of justified homicide (if he reaches into his pocket, brandishes a weapon on you, and you had no way out, etc)

    What are your thoughts?

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    thats happened before and justified.

    depends on the road rage. instances someone comes at you with a weapon. they are in a vehicle its a weapon if they use it to overpower you. though in a car you should be dialing 911. if they are following you. they will try to get you to a dept or an officer to intercept you.

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    You need to read up on disparity of force considerations and determine how you will reach the conclusion that you feel in fear of your life. You might also consider more training on carrying in your state.

    I would also suggest you drop this thought you have that distinguishes drawing to shoot and drawing to intimidate or warn off someone (more commonly known as brandishing in most states).It's generally considered a good way to get yourself killed or get arrested and lose your permit. Again, at the very least, talk with someone who does defensive/tactical handgun training and has experience with the laws of your state.



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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    ...
    What are your thoughts?
    Why on earth would you let your wife and childget into that situation of danger? Where were you? If you have done this, it is likely because of incompetance... at a disturbing level.

    If that is the situation,the best thing you can do is dial9-1-1 and try not to mess anything else up while waiting for the po-po to arrive.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    ...
    What are your thoughts?
    Why on earth would you let your wife and childget into that situation of danger? Where were you? If you have done this, it is likely because of incompetance... at a disturbing level.

    If that is the situation,the best thing you can do is dial9-1-1 and try not to mess anything else up while waiting for the po-po to arrive.
    HankT

    You should carefully read the original post before going off on the OP. It is far from unusual for people going about their normal, and otherwise very safe, daily "chores" when some mentally disturbed individual comes out of nowhere. As long as we use the streets as our mental institutions and don't monitor these people to see that they take the necessary meds we can see scenarios like this regularly.

    Should this same situation occur at the local Safeway Gas Station I can assure you that there would be a 9-1-1 call. Wouldn't be for the police but for an aid car to haul the "attacker" away. My wife weighs about 100 lbs so any attack by an average sized man could be(and would most likely be) viewed as a disparity of force situation and all necessary force (including deadly) could be employed to defend herself.

    The law allows for whatever force is necessary to defend one's self,up to and including deadly force. The only caveat in the law in WA State is that only that force necessary to stop the threat is used, no more. To a woman the size of my wife, against a 175 lb + male that would be in my view a couple of 124grHP's in the center of his mass.



    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

    "If you refuse to stand up for others now, who will stand up for you when your time comes?"

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    ecocks wrote:
    You need to read up on disparity of force considerations and determine how you will reach the conclusion that you feel in fear of your life. You might also consider more training on carrying in your state.

    I would also suggest you drop this thought you have that distinguishes drawing to shoot and drawing to intimidate or warn off someone (more commonly known as brandishing in most states).It's generally considered a good way to get yourself killed or get arrested and lose your permit. Again, at the very least, talk with someone who does defensive/tactical handgun training and has experience with the laws of your state.

    I somewhat disagree. Just because you draw, doesn't mean you have to shoot.. it means you have to be willing to shoot. There are several circumstances where one could draw and not shoot, and the threat would drop.

    If my car is broke down with me in it, and some guy starts trying to break my window, I'm going to draw, and fire depending on his reaction. If he flees on the sight of my firearm, then he didn't have to die.

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    HankT wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    ...
    What are your thoughts?
    Why on earth would you let your wife and childget into that situation of danger? Where were you? If you have done this, it is likely because of incompetance... at a disturbing level.

    If that is the situation,the best thing you can do is dial9-1-1 and try not to mess anything else up while waiting for the po-po to arrive.
    What on earth are you talking about?

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    amlevin wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    ...
    What are your thoughts?
    Why on earth would you let your wife and childget into that situation of danger? Where were you? If you have done this, it is likely because of incompetance... at a disturbing level.

    If that is the situation,the best thing you can do is dial9-1-1 and try not to mess anything else up while waiting for the po-po to arrive.
    HankT

    You should carefully read the original post before going off on the OP. It is far from unusual for people going about their normal, and otherwise very safe, daily "chores" when some mentally disturbed individual comes out of nowhere. As long as we use the streets as our mental institutions and don't monitor these people to see that they take the necessary meds we can see scenarios like this regularly.

    Should this same situation occur at the local Safeway Gas Station I can assure you that there would be a 9-1-1 call. Wouldn't be for the police but for an aid car to haul the "attacker" away. My wife weighs about 100 lbs so any attack by an average sized man could be(and would most likely be) viewed as a disparity of force situation and all necessary force (including deadly) could be employed to defend herself.

    The law allows for whatever force is necessary to defend one's self,up to and including deadly force. The only caveat in the law in WA State is that only that force necessary to stop the threat is used, no more. To a woman the size of my wife, against a 175 lb + male that would be in my view a couple of 124grHP's in the center of his mass.


    Tonight I picked up pizza in Burien - had never been to this place before. As I'm walking across the parking lot, a pretty big guy comes out and is arguing with his wife. Usual bully crap - calling her a bitch, telling her to shut her hole, etc.

    Now, I'm minding my own business but he shoots me a dirty look. I kept walking - but very quickly this situation could have escalated if he'd decided that I was testing "his authority."

    I figure he was about one beer away from having enough anger to come after me - I've been in these situations before (worked as a bouncer in the day) - and it happens just that fast. Some drunk decides he's Barney Badass and comes after you.

    Yes, I was carrying.

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    Shoot him in the head!





    Twice!

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    Aaron1124 wrote:
    ecocks wrote:
    You need to read up on disparity of force considerations and determine how you will reach the conclusion that you feel in fear of your life. You might also consider more training on carrying in your state.

    I would also suggest you drop this thought you have that distinguishes drawing to shoot and drawing to intimidate or warn off someone (more commonly known as brandishing in most states).It's generally considered a good way to get yourself killed or get arrested and lose your permit. Again, at the very least, talk with someone who does defensive/tactical handgun training and has experience with the laws of your state.

    I somewhat disagree. Just because you draw, doesn't mean you have to shoot.. it means you have to be willing to shoot. There are several circumstances where one could draw and not shoot, and the threat would drop.

    If my car is broke down with me in it, and some guy starts trying to break my window, I'm going to draw, and fire depending on his reaction. If he flees on the sight of my firearm, then he didn't have to die.
    Of course you are not forced or requiredto shoot when you draw no matter what. However, when you draw, you have decided to stop the threat andhave also decidedto use lethal force. If the guy runs away or otherwise breaks offyou don't shoot.

    That is completely different than reaching a conscious decision of, "I'll pull my gun just to show him I am not one to mess with andmake him run away" which is followingthe OP'scomment that the guy approaching his window is "Obviously" insufficient reason to draw and shoot, so he would draw and display it (brandishing by any definition).

    I've had multiple training classes in different statesand no instructor has ever taught a procedure of drawing your weapon to scare away the bad guys. You draw when you have decided you must shoot. Your instructors may be different but I have never encountered anyone competentwho believes brandishing is an appropriate deliberately undertaken tactic.

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    in an excalating situation, you could draw, (secretly) and keep it out of sight, just in case the s%%t hits the fan.

    Every second counts!
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Read this.

    It's an article by a defense attorney that is filled with good info about self defense shootings, including unarmed attacker information.

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    thanx dean f, im only 1/4 thru! great reading! im going back to read now.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Good article, and I for one will only shoot if absolutely necessary, I don't believe in never draw unless you are going to shoot. Sometimes drawing is enough force to end the confrontation.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    ecocks wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    ecocks wrote:
    You need to read up on disparity of force considerations and determine how you will reach the conclusion that you feel in fear of your life. You might also consider more training on carrying in your state.

    I would also suggest you drop this thought you have that distinguishes drawing to shoot and drawing to intimidate or warn off someone (more commonly known as brandishing in most states).It's generally considered a good way to get yourself killed or get arrested and lose your permit. Again, at the very least, talk with someone who does defensive/tactical handgun training and has experience with the laws of your state.

    I somewhat disagree. Just because you draw, doesn't mean you have to shoot.. it means you have to be willing to shoot. There are several circumstances where one could draw and not shoot, and the threat would drop.

    If my car is broke down with me in it, and some guy starts trying to break my window, I'm going to draw, and fire depending on his reaction. If he flees on the sight of my firearm, then he didn't have to die.
    Of course you are not forced or requiredto shoot when you draw no matter what. However, when you draw, you have decided to stop the threat andhave also decidedto use lethal force. If the guy runs away or otherwise breaks offyou don't shoot.

    That is completely different than reaching a conscious decision of, "I'll pull my gun just to show him I am not one to mess with andmake him run away" which is followingthe OP'scomment that the guy approaching his window is "Obviously" insufficient reason to draw and shoot, so he would draw and display it (brandishing by any definition).

    I've had multiple training classes in different statesand no instructor has ever taught a procedure of drawing your weapon to scare away the bad guys. You draw when you have decided you must shoot. Your instructors may be different but I have never encountered anyone competentwho believes brandishing is an appropriate deliberately undertaken tactic.
    I've been taught that there are circumstances to draw it without the immediate intentions of using it, for the purpose of defusing the situation. I've actually been verbally told this by more than one who was considered a professional in the field.

    Difference in training I guess. I am the original poster, and what I meant by that was the same thing you said: I'll draw, and if he runs off, then the threat is stopped.

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    Good advice within that posted link...

    "Displaying or brandishing a weapon without firing it is often unwise. It may be construed by a prosecutor or a jury as illegally threatening the use of the firearm or weapon, i.e., common law assault, threatening, or other similar offenses. It is also tactically unwise because it may encourage the aggressor to attempt to disarm the client."




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    Does this happen? Since the answer is Yes, how about considering an actual example? The shooter in this case was, in fact, justified, and no charges were ever filed.

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    ecocks wrote:
    Good advice within that posted link...

    "Displaying or brandishing a weapon without firing it is often unwise. It may be construed by a prosecutor or a jury as illegally threatening the use of the firearm or weapon, i.e., common law assault, threatening, or other similar offenses. It is also tactically unwise because it may encourage the aggressor to attempt to disarm the client."


    It can be looked at both ways. The situation may not have escalated enough to actually shoot the individual.. for example, there are many occasions where the police will draw and not fire. Of course, you always have to be prepared to fire if you're going to draw, but if the suspect/attacker stops, then the situation is defused, and no one needed to get shot.

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    HankT wrote:
    Aaron1124 wrote:
    Your wife, who carries, is out with your children/child. She has just put gas into her car, when a very large man, who is legitimately psychotic, but unarmed, walks over to her and starts throwing her around, beating her up. He's unarmed, but he's obviously overpowering her, and could potentially kill her, all while your child is in the car.

    ...
    What are your thoughts?
    Why on earth would you let your wife and childget into that situation of danger? Where were you? If you have done this, it is likely because of incompetance... at a disturbing level.

    If that is the situation,the best thing you can do is dial9-1-1 and try not to mess anything else up while waiting for the po-po to arrive.
    Your wife should have shot that psyco before it get physical!

    if you were there and saw her getting beatup, then you should have shot him!

    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  20. #20
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    why do we need to continue to have these dumb ******* threads. go post your **** elsewhere.



    damm i'm getting pissed at all the f'n trolls

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    Boo Boo wrote:
    why do we need to continue to have these dumb @#$%ing threads. go post your @#$% elsewhere.



    damm i'm getting pissed at all the f'n trolls
    Excuse me? Trolls?

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    Boo Boo wrote:
    I have a Silver bodied Canon XSi with box and all cables

    Canon EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 III

    will also throw in a 8gb SDHC card

    asking 550.00
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    From what i know deadly force (shooting, stabbing, ect) is only used as a last resort when you feel your life or another is in danger. I'm going on my 11th year in the service, and I've gone through my share of hand gun training. They taught me to only draw and use my firearm in a last resort situation. For instance, a man approaches you asking you for money (unarmed), you say no, he hits you in the head, and continues to hit you and you cannot control him, you feel as if you don't use the force necessary to restrain him you might lose your life. You fire your firearm and ultimately this man dies of his injury's. You have used justifiable force.

    If a reasonable person believes that they are going to suffer great bodily harm then they have the right to use deadly force.
    The question is is the person reasonable or biased or just plain paranoid.

    In your situations, the case of the woman being attacked and controlled is an example of being justified to use deadly force. Being attacked by a group of unarmed thugs depends on a few variables. It depends on how much force is being used by the group.
    If they are just taunting, slapping and hitting it would not be reasonable. If one of them is choking the victim while other held then deadly force is reasonable. If the victim is down and is being kicked, especially in the head, then deadly force is reasonable.

    Those who say that the use of a firearm is never justified against an unarmed attacker, are not thinking clearly.

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    So what was your take on deciding (consciously) to draw in order to discourage/scare the guy away rather than deciding you were in peril and weredrawingafter deciding you would have toshoot?

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    ecocks wrote:
    So what was your take on deciding (consciously) to draw in order to discourage/scare the guy away rather than deciding you were in peril and weredrawingafter deciding you would have toshoot?
    Not sure if you're talking to me, or the above poster, but I think you should only draw under the circumstances that you are in immediate fear of your life, or you feel the particular situation could escalate to you being in fear of your life.

    In the case shown in the video, where the two rednecks continued to follow the man in the BMW, and harass him, yelling obscenities, etc etc.. I feel that was a good example of when it's good to draw, but not necessarily fire. The man was being followed and harassed, and then cornered. The people following him also pulled out a baseball bat. The man drew his firearm and told them to back down. No shots were fired.

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