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The reasonable man.

S

Springfield Smitty

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May 22, 2009
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296
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OKC, OK (Heading back to MI very soon - thank good
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hopnpop wrote:
Leader wrote:
hopnpop wrote:
Springfield Smitty wrote:
Choover,

It is okay only if you have your CPL.
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Right. If you have a CPL, it doesn't have to be 100% anything. If NOT, it does have to be "100%" visible. I quotationed that because even when OCing on the hip at your 3 o'clock, and someone's at your 9 o'clock, it isn't visible to them. Misnomer. Anyway...

OC'd in Lawrence today, checked out the new gunshop there that just opened - K&D Arms. Quaint little shop, not much iventory, but very reasonable prices on what they have. Eyeballed a.303 British with optics and a Russian SKS :quirky. Nicest folks. Hope it takes off for 'em.
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Actually the law says a reasonable person has to be able to tell it's a gun. If they can, it's open carry.

We are still waiting for someone charged with CCW for carrying with an IWB holster.

To date I know of no one that has been CONVICTED for that.
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I was recently discussing this issue with EM87. Before our conversation, I was under the impression that carrying in an IWB holster, but otherwise uncovered (by shirt) IS considered open carry. He explained that it's still a gray area and that it very well could be considered (failed) concealed carry. I had it in my head that such an issue had already been tried in court and was deemed open carry, but I don't recall where that notion came from. At least from the frontit's obvious that it's a gun in my waistband. If carrying in an IWB holster but otherwise uncovered is considered concealed, I've broken that one a few times, carrying in that manner into C-stores and party stores that sell alcohol.

"...the law says a reasonable person has to be able to tell it's a gun. If they can, it's open carry."

Poor wording I think. I don't like it when they use wording like "a reasonable person" - who exactly determines whether a person is reasonable or not? In MY opinion, most anyone who would make an issue of someone carrying, either concealed OR openly, isn't "reasonable".

Any update on this matter would be nice to have, should this issue go to court sometime.
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The "reasonable man" is a very interesting concept. According to the definition the law uses, the "resonable man" is actually the highest standard of evaluation one can apply to someone. This "reasonable man" is so far exalted above what most of us laymen consider to be "reasonable" it is almost hard to imagine.

If you ever get a chance, ask a lawyer about this. It is very eye opening and interesting.

BTW - Any of you who took a CPL class from an NRA Certified Instructor should have had this concept explained during the legal portion. If not, your instructor did not follow the NRA standards in conducting the class.
 
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Guest

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IIRC, a member's nephew got railroaded for carrying IWB without a CPL. Charged with CCW he plead to a lesser charge. So there is still no court case. I don't want to call him out. I'll let him provide the details if he wishes.

I've read the AG opinion and it only cites a holster worn on the outside of clothing. I think it's BS, but what do I know.

I just shove my cocked & locked 1911 in my waistband and go. When confronted I disclose as if it's concealed. The couple of times that's happened, that's as far as it went. I produce my CPL and DL and go on my way. No disarming, unloading, getting into the cruiser. Nothing. I'm waiting though.

Pulled up next to MSP yesterday at a light on my motorcycle. 1911 grip sticking out of my waistband. I believe he saw it. Got the nod and off he went when the light changed.
 
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Guest

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The poor kid got railroaded!!!

To me, concealed means "prevented from being seen".

IWB and it can be discerned that it's a gun.

But what do I know?

I'm not a "reasonable" man.
 
T

T Vance

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2009
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2,482
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Not on this website, USA
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dougwg wrote:
That was my nephew. His name here is Thway.
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If you (or Thway) doesn't mind me asking, why did he take a plea bargin instead of pleading not guilty and fighting it. I'm not making ANY judgments against his decision, I'm just curious.
 
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THway

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
252
Location
Plymouth/Canton, Michigan, USA
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dougwg wrote:
But they could have busted him for possession in an establishment licensed by the LCA.

But they are so ignorant of the law that they missed it.
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Wrong.... at the time of the incident... the gas station was not in possession of a Liquor license. Several months after the incident occurred however, the received their licenses and now sell alcohol.
 
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