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Thread: Bad police encounter

  1. #1
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    I was driving south on 95 from Reno back to Vegas yesterday. I got stopped for speeding by the Walker River Paiute Tribal Police. I was coming out of the tiny little town north of Walker Lake and saw the cruiser at the last minute coming toward me. I saw him hit the brakes so knew I was going to be stopped. I pulled over and waited for him. When he came to the window he said I was being stopped for going 51 in a 40. Then immediately asked if I had any weapons in the car. I told him I had my pistol in a fanny pack on the floor between the seats. He told me to get out of the vehicle for "officer safety."

    I handed him my insurance and registration, my wallet was in my bag in the back of the vehicle andI stated so. He asked if I had a CCW and I told him I do. He asked to see my license and CCW permit. He asked what gun was in the car and I told him it was the Kahr that is listed on my permit. He asked if I was a security guard in a casino, which I am not, and then asked what I did. Then he told me to stand at the rear of my vehicle, again for "officer safety." After about a minute he came to the back of the car and told me he had my gun in his pants pocket for "safety" and i should return to the driver's seat.

    After a couple minutes he returns with the ticket that he explains is for rural speed and will not have any impact on my license. My wife is pregnant and was getting pretty antsy as she needed to use the restroom. I asked if the gas station a couple hundred yards up was open. He says yes and if there are no further questions I am free to go. So I ask for my gun back. At this he says he will put the gun in the rear of the vehicle, a Honda CRV, for "officer safety." I asked if he minded my watching this as it is my gun. He said "No problem, just leave the gun in the rear until you get to the gas station." I asked if there was anything wrong or illegal about the way the gun was in the car to start, in a holster in the fanny pack. He said no but he didn't want me to have the gun in the car while he was there.

    I don't mind the speeding ticket, he said I was going 51 in a 40 which seems fair, but the things the officer did during the stop really have me pissed.


    My wife and our friend were never asked to exit the car or anything else for that matter. I cooperated in hopes of not getting the speeding ticket. I realize that I should have known they need the revenue so bad there was no way I was not getting a ticket.

    Could I have not told him about the gun legally? And could I legally refuse to leave the gun in the back until I got to the gas station?

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    WantaG18 wrote:
    Could I have not told him about the gun legally? And could I legally refuse to leave the gun in the back until I got to the gas station?
    Good effort to try to get out of the ticket.

    You did not have to disclose the presence of the pistol, but lying about it is a crime. To answer "Do you have any weapons in the car?", you might try "I have nothing illegal in the car." This will either satisfy him or make him suspicious. You also don't have to answer any questions, but in my experience, this just makes the stop take longer.

    You most certainly DO NOT have to leave the gun in the back of the car or anywhere else. It's your property, you put it where you want. But it's a rural cop with nothing else to do today, unlike you, and probably won't appreciate you disobeying him, even though his "order" is meaningless. So YMMV.

    My own thoughts about that though is that you have no obligation to open the trunk so he can put your gun there. Claiming "officer safety" he got a free warrantless search of your trunk.

    But all-in-all, not a bad stop, doesn't sound like he was rude about it, just overly cautious.

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    Thanks for the reply Tim. I do value your opinion. I didn't really mind the stop on a whole but just didn't understand why he put the gun in his pocket or thought I would allow him access to the car by himself. Who knows what he could have put in there?

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    Do the Indians even have the authority to stop you on state roads? Is the ticket to be paid to the tribe?

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    Vegassteve wrote:
    Do the Indians even have the authority to stop you on state roads? Is the ticket to be paid to the tribe?
    It's a gray area. Some people will tell you highways are Federal Property which exempt them from jurisdiction from the Tribal Authority. They'll tell you to just "drive away" if pulled over by a tribal cop. They'll tell you tribal cops have tricks to pull you over, then order you to drive further off the road or into a rest stop then "Got cha, you're on Indian Land!"

    My guess is there is some legitimacy to those above claims, but I don't know if I'm one to resist an officer to that extreme. I've love an attorney's opinion on it. YMMV


    To the op, you did everything right in my humble opinion. You got an officer who wanted to flex a little bit of his "Authoritah" and I've got two ideas for the future:

    1. ID/CCW stays out of the gun bag. If your ID was outside of your gun bag, it would've been very easy to toss that fanny pack in the back seat and take "officer safety" out of the equation. Furthermore, even if you decide to leave the bag between your feet the officer still would've had no reason to touch your gun. Sure, he might pull you out of the car to the rear for "officer safety." But the second he asks about the gun again you get to say "I'm not going to consent to a search." If he doesn't need to touch your bag to retrieve your ID for you, he doesn't need to see inside that bag at all.

    2. My second suggestion will push the limits of officer patience, but when he asks about weapons in the car you could basically say "None of your business or I'm not answering that." Now, if you've got a weapon on your person, I doubt you could get away with not answering because a gun on your body gets into the realm of "officer safety". But when you're being detained during a traffic stop for the crime of Speeding, one could make the argument that there is no "reasonable cause" to search the car for any other item. The officer asking about contents of the vehicle amounts to a search, and you don't have to consent to a reasonless search. It's just like the officer asking "Where you coming from/going to today?" Fair warning: you will get the officer in your face for avoiding the weapon question. He will probably threaten you with penalties, interfering with his duties, call for back up, and make your stop difficult. This is one you'd really have to stick to your guns (pun!) to maintain, and you'd have to be very confident in exercising all of your rights to do so. Also remember an officer may only detain you for a period of 1 hour during his investigation, which in this case is investigating your crime of Speeding. I wouldn't recommend this if you are with your wife, and wouldn't recommend this if you want to avoid confrontation.

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    Could I have not told him about the gun legally? And could I legally refuse to leave the gun in the back until I got to the gas station?

    Depends on state law. If you don't have to tell them, then don't. I agree that you don't have to leave the car in the back upon termination of the encounter.

    My second suggestion will push the limits of officer patience, but when he asks about weapons in the car you could basically say "None of your business or I'm not answering that." Now, if you've got a weapon on your person, I doubt you could get away with not answering because a gun on your body gets into the realm of "officer safety".


    You are 100% correct that it is none of the cops business. It doesn't matter what color your underwear is. It doesn't matter what kind of socks you are wearing. It doesn't matter if you are carrying a gun and if you don't legally have to tell the cop that, then don't.

    Fair warning: you will get the officer in your face for avoiding the weapon question. He will probably threaten you with penalties, interfering with his duties, call for back up, and make your stop difficult.

    Nobody said being a vigilent citizen is easy or exercising your rights is for the timid. If he tries to get in for face demand a supervisor, get badge numbers, etc...

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    The reason why they pulled you over on the federal hwy is because of this:

    http://nativetimes.com/index.php?opt...&Itemid=29

    You will start to see more traffic stops by Tribal Police on Federal Hwys......So watch it!

    All in all. I think you did well on your stop. like stated prior...............He got a free search of your vehicles trunk.

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    WantaG18 wrote:
    I was driving south on 95 from Reno back to Vegas yesterday. I got stopped for speeding by the Walker River Paiute Tribal Police. I was coming out of the tiny little town north of Walker Lake and saw the cruiser at the last minute coming toward me. I saw him hit the brakes so knew I was going to be stopped. I pulled over and waited for him. When he came to the window he said I was being stopped for going 51 in a 40. Then immediately asked if I had any weapons in the car. I told him I had my pistol in a fanny pack on the floor between the seats. He told me to get out of the vehicle for "officer safety."

    I handed him my insurance and registration, my wallet was in my bag in the back of the vehicle andI stated so. He asked if I had a CCW and I told him I do. He asked to see my license and CCW permit. He asked what gun was in the car and I told him it was the Kahr that is listed on my permit. He asked if I was a security guard in a casino, which I am not, and then asked what I did. Then he told me to stand at the rear of my vehicle, again for "officer safety." After about a minute he came to the back of the car and told me he had my gun in his pants pocket for "safety" and i should return to the driver's seat.

    After a couple minutes he returns with the ticket that he explains is for rural speed and will not have any impact on my license. My wife is pregnant and was getting pretty antsy as she needed to use the restroom. I asked if the gas station a couple hundred yards up was open. He says yes and if there are no further questions I am free to go. So I ask for my gun back. At this he says he will put the gun in the rear of the vehicle, a Honda CRV, for "officer safety." I asked if he minded my watching this as it is my gun. He said "No problem, just leave the gun in the rear until you get to the gas station." I asked if there was anything wrong or illegal about the way the gun was in the car to start, in a holster in the fanny pack. He said no but he didn't want me to have the gun in the car while he was there.

    I don't mind the speeding ticket, he said I was going 51 in a 40 which seems fair, but the things the officer did during the stop really have me pissed.


    My wife and our friend were never asked to exit the car or anything else for that matter. I cooperated in hopes of not getting the speeding ticket. I realize that I should have known they need the revenue so bad there was no way I was not getting a ticket.

    Could I have not told him about the gun legally? And could I legally refuse to leave the gun in the back until I got to the gas station?
    So your pistol was in the fanny pack---was it inside the fanny pack--meaning, did the officer have to physically OPEN the pack to get the pistol? That seems like it is an automatic search and seizure issue under the 4th Amendment....

    if he had to physically OPEN the fanny pack to locate, or see the pistol--then I would immediately file a complaint with the tribal police, as well as the FBI considering that it was tribal police who stopped you. I would file a complaint with the FBI and the tribal police anyway because of the search of your trunk--that was also unlawful.

    I would also agree with what others have said--it isn't the officers business where you work or what you do, and I would simply refuse to answer that question. Also, if the officer asks if you have a weapon in the car--I would simply refuse to answer that question as well,and when they get you out of the car--simply lock all of the doors and if they get into your face--demand a supervisor, or call the sheriffs office or state police yourself. Also, if you have one--carry a nice audio recorder with you and FOIA the dash cam tapes if the car has a camera installed. If the reason for the stop was simply for speeding--asking a question about whether or not you have a gun in the car is I would think unreasonable. Simply give the police only the information that you absolutely have to.

    Lastly simply remember--you are under absolutely NO obligation to answer any questions except those as required by law. Remember--more often than not, the less you tell the police, the better off you are.



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    Again, more misinformation being promulgated.

    See http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...#NRS202Sec3653:

    NRS 202.3667 Permittee to carry permit and proper identification when in possession of concealed firearm; penalty.

    1. Each permittee shall carry the permit, or a duplicate issued pursuant to the provisions of NRS 202.367
    , together with proper identification whenever the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed firearm. Both the permit and proper identification must be presented if requested by a peace officer.

    2. A permittee who violates the provisions of this section is subject to a civil penalty of $25 for each violation.
    The way the above statute reads, I believe you must answer honestly and affirmatively when in possession IF you are asked by a cop.

    As to the question about retrieving your firearm BEFORE going to the gas station, well, I don't see why you couldn't retrieve it immediately after the cop left you. That is what I would have done.

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    varminter22 wrote:
    Again, more misinformation being promulgated.

    See http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...#NRS202Sec3653:

    NRS 202.3667 Permittee to carry permit and proper identification when in possession of concealed firearm; penalty.

    1. Each permittee shall carry the permit, or a duplicate issued pursuant to the provisions of NRS 202.367
    , together with proper identification whenever the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed firearm. Both the permit and proper identification must be presented if requested by a peace officer.

    2. A permittee who violates the provisions of this section is subject to a civil penalty of $25 for each violation.
    The way the above statute reads, I believe you must answer honestly and affirmatively when in possession IF you are asked by a cop.

    As to the question about retrieving your firearm BEFORE going to the gas station, well, I don't see why you couldn't retrieve it immediately after the cop left you. That is what I would have done.
    Varminter,

    OP did not have any weapons concealed upon his person. Only in a fanny pack between the seats of his vehicle.

    Had he been carrying a concealed weapon, you are correct that he would have to comply with a request for his ID and CCW permit. However, I don't read the statute the same as you. I do not believe you must disclose the presence of the weapon if asked.

    Remember, carrying without a permit is a felony, and such a question might be incriminating to a non-permit holder. Having a concealed weapon in certain places (like a school) is illegal, so that question is incriminating as well. And let's say you were visiting on a Utah permit like you had 100 times before, except you didn't realize Utah permits are no longer recognized. Again, an incriminating question!

    As the question is potentially incriminating, your 5th amendment right to remain silent would protect your refusal to answer. If your read is correct, I think refusing to answer on the grounds the answer may incriminate you would be a reasonable argument in court if you were charged under this statute.

    Tim

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    timf343 wrote:
    Varminter,

    OP did not have any weapons concealed upon his person. Only in a fanny pack between the seats of his vehicle.

    Had he been carrying a concealed weapon, you are correct that he would have to comply with a request for his ID and CCW permit. However, I don't read the statute the same as you. I do not believe you must disclose the presence of the weapon if asked.

    Remember, carrying without a permit is a felony, and such a question might be incriminating to a non-permit holder. Having a concealed weapon in certain places (like a school) is illegal, so that question is incriminating as well. And let's say you were visiting on a Utah permit like you had 100 times before, except you didn't realize Utah permits are no longer recognized. Again, an incriminating question!

    As the question is potentially incriminating, your 5th amendment right to remain silent would protect your refusal to answer. If your read is correct, I think refusing to answer on the grounds the answer may incriminate you would be a reasonable argument in court if you were charged under this statute.

    Tim
    Thanks, Tim. I agree. Sorry about that!

    I stand corrected on the issue concerning CCW versus otherwise lawful transport in the vehicle!

    Since a CCW permit was not involved, and since it IS lawful to transport anywhere else in the vehicle, I agree with you (and others)!

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    WantaG18 wrote:
    After a couple minutes he returns with the ticket that he explains is for rural speed and will not have any impact on my license. My wife is pregnant and was getting pretty antsy as she needed to use the restroom. I asked if the gas station a couple hundred yards up was open. He says yes and if there are no further questions I am free to go. So I ask for my gun back. At this he says he will put the gun in the rear of the vehicle, a Honda CRV, for "officer safety." I asked if he minded my watching this as it is my gun. He said "No problem, just leave the gun in the rear until you get to the gas station."
    Can you follow up with his supervisor on this? This BS of you can't have the gun back till I leave is starting to sound like Col. Flagg on the TV series MASH.

    Flagg's "trademark" is to ensure that no one sees him leave when he has finished a job. ("I have no home, I am the wind.") Keeping up that image backfires at least once when he orders all of the others in the room to close their eyes as he exits by leaping through the window in Col. Potter's office. (When the others open their eyes after hearing a yelp of pain, Hawkeye investigates and dryly notes, "The 'wind' just broke his leg."). See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ers_in_M*A*S*H

    See also: http://mash.wikia.com/wiki/Colonel_Sam_Flaggand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLW_Lldw-ggand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDKuI...eature=relatedand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnWxatzqVHU

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    The ticket doesn't come through large enough to see. I want to post a legible copy. Does anyone know where to upload a copy?



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    If I didn't have my wife, who's six months pregnant, and her friend with me I probablywould have had a much longer stop. While we were stopped and before he took possession of the gun another tribal officer drove by. They were working the stretch of highway that goes from 70 mph to 35 mph near that little town. If he felt the need for added safety I don't know why he wouldn't request back up. We had slowed to the limit and were even going about 20 through most of the town. But when the little lady needs to go I have to find a restroom or a semi-private section of brush on the side of the road. So I sped up whenI saw the gas station. Anyway the ticket wasn't my complaint.

    My complaints are more with the handling of the gun. He could have taken the whole fanny pack out of the car if he felt threatened by it's presence on the floor and zipped. I have a CRV so the seats are fairly high.My wife couldn't reach the gun in her present condition if she tried. But he did open the fanny pack, take the gun from the holster, and remove the mag and clear the chamber.

    I didn't have anything to hide in the car so I didn't think opening the trunk was a big deal, it has a mostly glass hatchback,but it upset me that my gun wasn't even in clear site when I asked to have it returned. Since he had taken if from the holster he wanted to just put the gun on the floor with my cooler and backpacks. If my wife didn't need to use the restroom I would have insisted on putting the gun back in the front. I just needed to get up to that gas station. I then spent the next two hours wondering how far they had jurisdiction on 95 as he headed south after the stop and I only passed the other officer, with a car stopped, while driving on.

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    timf343 wrote:
    WantaG18 wrote:
    Could I have not told him about the gun legally? And could I legally refuse to leave the gun in the back until I got to the gas station?
    Good effort to try to get out of the ticket.

    You did not have to disclose the presence of the pistol, but lying about it is a crime. To answer "Do you have any weapons in the car?", you might try "I have nothing illegal in the car." This will either satisfy him or make him suspicious. You also don't have to answer any questions, but in my experience, this just makes the stop take longer.

    You most certainly DO NOT have to leave the gun in the back of the car or anywhere else. It's your property, you put it where you want. But it's a rural cop with nothing else to do today, unlike you, and probably won't appreciate you disobeying him, even though his "order" is meaningless. So YMMV.

    My own thoughts about that though is that you have no obligation to open the trunk so he can put your gun there. Claiming "officer safety" he got a free warrantless search of your trunk.

    But all-in-all, not a bad stop, doesn't sound like he was rude about it, just overly cautious.
    My belief is thatthere are certain situations where it is permissible and even desirable to use technicalities and carefully-worded, vague statements that one would normally not use. This varies from person to person and depends somewhat on one's ability to think quickly, among other things.

    I'm not saying that the OP should have done something like this. Just that, for me, it is (in theory at least), a viable possibility.

    One possibility would be to respond to his question about weapons with a disclaimer, such as--"I don't know how tribal law defines 'weapons,' so I can't answer that." Or--"I've heard that common objects such as keys and ballpoint pens can be used as weapons. However, I don't have anything that state law defines as illegal." Or--"I have various tools that could be used as weapons." [Since a gun can bedefined as a tool for self-defence.]

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    I had that same "officer safety" line pulled on me. the NHP trooper told me I would have to open the tour pack on the back of my Harley. in order to get my firearm back. I was violated by that action in the same way you were, and Tim as well on the strip. If it were me again I would file with the FBI and the internal affairs. I don't know if the tribal police are bound by the NRS, but it makes sense to me that if they are enforcing the NRS, it would adhere to them as well, This is the ammo (pun) I would use. With special attn. being payed to section (B)

    NRS 207.190 Coercion.

    1. It is unlawful for a person, with the intent to compel another to do or abstain from doing an act which the other person has a right to do or abstain from doing, to:

    (a) Use violence or inflict injury upon the other person or any of his family, or upon his property, or threaten such violence or injury;

    (b) Deprive the person of any tool, implement or clothing, or hinder him in the use thereof; or

    (c) Attempt to intimidate the person by threats or force.

    2. A person who violates the provisions of subsection 1 shall be punished:

    (a) Where physical force or the immediate threat of physical force is used, for a category B felony by imprisonment in the state prison for a minimum term of not less than 1 year and a maximum term of not more than 6 years, and may be further punished by a fine of not more than $5,000.

    (b) Where no physical force or immediate threat of physical force is used, for a misdemeanor.

    [1911 C&P § 475; RL § 6740; NCL § 10424]—(NRS A 1967, 522; 1979, 1455; 1995, 1239)



    You have every right to your firearm, as the officer has witnessed that it is lawfully carried. If or when I am stopped again, I am going to ensure that the officer puts my firearm back and loaded exactly how he found it. somewhere in thereI will be asking him to Cite the part of the amendment that says, The right to bear arms shall be infringed upon in the name of officer safety.

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    But why did you leave the door unlocked when you exited the car?
    He couldn't get back in otherwise.
    "Open UP", and wife refuses for "Women Safety". What can he do?
    When he goes blue in the face, he justifies her fear of letting a crazed
    individual at her in the middle of nowhere.

    But that is why she has the gun in this situation, then there is nothing
    wrong with the truth that you have no weapon. At the very least they
    would need to prove you had knowledge of it being in the fanny pack.

    I know when my wife was that pregnant, I wouldn't want to be to
    aggressive with her. For officer safety he better back off.:P

    But after getting the ticket, I would not allow the trunk to be opened.
    Worse case I would leave the gun, and call the state police at the gas
    station and report the armed theft of my property.


  18. #18
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    Tribal police only have jurisdiction on tribal land. The interstate is not part of tribal lands, it belongs to the state. Unless the tribe and the state/county have signed an interlocal agreement granting each other jurisdiction, they cannot enforce each others laws.





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    Vegassteve wrote:
    Do the Indians even have the authority to stop you on state roads? Not with out a signed inter-local agreement with the County/State.
    Is the ticket to be paid to the tribe? Yes, but it's like any other bill. You don't pay it, they may send it to a collection agency, but no criminal penalties.

  20. #20
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    maldog wrote:
    The reason why they pulled you over on the federal hwy is because of this:

    http://nativetimes.com/index.php?opt...&Itemid=29

    You will start to see more traffic stops by Tribal Police on Federal Hwys......So watch it!

    All in all. I think you did well on your stop. like stated prior...............He got a free search of your vehicles trunk.
    Incorrect.

    This allows them limited jurisdiction to enforce some federal laws. Federal highways (I-95) actually belong to the state and the state sets the speed limits. The feds do not have jurisdiction over traffic violation ion the interstate highway system.

  21. #21
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    varminter22 wrote:
    Again, more misinformation being promulgated.

    See http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-2...#NRS202Sec3653:

    NRS 202.3667 Permittee to carry permit and proper identification when in possession of concealed firearm; penalty.

    1. Each permittee shall carry the permit, or a duplicate issued pursuant to the provisions of NRS 202.367
    , together with proper identification whenever the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed firearm. Both the permit and proper identification must be presented if requested by a peace officer.

    2. A permittee who violates the provisions of this section is subject to a civil penalty of $25 for each violation.
    The way the above statute reads, I believe you must answer honestly and affirmatively when in possession IF you are asked by a cop.

    As to the question about retrieving your firearm BEFORE going to the gas station, well, I don't see why you couldn't retrieve it immediately after the cop left you. That is what I would have done.
    This is worded almost exactly as the Florida law.

    It does not require you to inform LEO you have a weapon. It simply requires you to show the license and ID to the LEO if he asks specifically to see it.

  22. #22
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    The ticket makes it appear the tribal police are working for the county.

  23. #23
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    this is the top of the ticket:

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