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Thread: Considering new 45 carry ammo

  1. #1
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I've carried FMJ ammo in my 45 ACP for several years.

    My reasoning is that it feeds the most reliably in my gun, it will penetrate an interior wall or glass and then penetrate heavy clothing, still going fast enough to take care of business, and, it's not fast enough to go through most exterior walls, at least in this area. I also reason that shot placement is what counts, not so much expansion, and I'm probably already doing about as well as someone with a hopped up 9 mm cartridge.

    But a lot of people have told me I'm stupid for doing this, because of possible over penetration, as well as a lack of expansion. I don't want to debate the merits of FMJ's here, I'm just trying to explain the situation, and what I want out of a defensive round.

    Anyway, I'm not convinced I want to switch ammo, but I definitely may.

    What I'd like is some suggestions for bullets (not complete rounds, just bullets, because I reload my carry ammo so I KNOW it will work) that have the same profile as an FMJ for feeding purposes, yet expand, and at the same time can be counted on to penetrate heavy winter clothing, as well as 1 light wall or glass, still having enough bullet material and speed to stop a threat.

    To sum it up, key factors are:

    -Expansion
    -Good penetration
    -Bullet weight retention regardless of what gets hit along the way
    -A round nose that enables easy feeding
    -Available as bullets only, not just loaded rounds


    Thank you in advance if anyone has meaningful suggestions.
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    Have you looked at the Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo by Federal?

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    You're not alone.

    I carry 230gr FMJ in my 1911.

    Why?

    It allows me to "rotate" my ammo for cheap.
    Guaranteed to feed properly.
    Has more than sufficient stopping power for an encounter.
    Allows me to shoot THROUGH cover.

    The military has used it for 100+ years. I don't see a reason why I shouldn't. I may switch to WWB JHP though in the near future.

    -Richard-

  4. #4
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    builtjeep wrote:
    Have you looked at the Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo by Federal?
    I considered that, but the Detroit Police had an infamous circumstance where it failed to penetrate heavy clothing in an (obviously) winter time shooting. The caliber was 40, but it's not like a .45 is going much if any faster.


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    I've been sporting the golden sabre HP's a friend reloaded awhile back (.45).
    They seem to make a nice penetration and do leave a mark.
    Generally just carried ball, worked for the professionals for years, never saw the need till a buddy handed off a few hundred to try on me.
    Uh oh, now maybe theres a rub there.
    good luck with a choice,
    RJ

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    I am a noob at guns first off. But what is the big deal in fancy ammo. I say this because in a self defense situation if someone hasent gone down with 3 shots your just gonna keep shooting. Better to have 13 rounds of fmj than 6 bullets of some fancy top of the line stuff where you cannot buy any more ammo.
    Thats just my idea.
    Speaking of the Military what company/companies do they use to produce their ammo?

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    One way to look at it is that every round that you shoot is a matter of luck that it goes off. Good ammo and good guns are pretty consistent, but failures happen, and you notice them more and more as you shoot periodically. That's why you want each round to count as much as possible if it works. It's also a reason why some people carry 2 or 3 handguns.

    The only company I know of that produces ammo for the military is Lake City. There are custom makers of ammo, such as special units that load sniper ammo if I remember right, but pretty much any main stream military ammo that I've ever heard of in the US military is Lake City brand.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I just watched an ammosmith.com youtube video series on casting your own soft point bullets.

    That convinced me to sign up with their forum, because it looks like those folks can definitely give me some ideas on how to custom make whatever it is that I want. I'm gonna ask for advice over there once they approve my registration.
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    Every defensive gun class that I have taken the instructors have said not to use reloads for personal defence. Not becausereloads will work or not work but theDistrict attorneywill use that totry toconvict you. Then there is the cost of testing the reloads, I have heard its $20K and that is added right on to the cost of defending your self in court. This is assuming that you get sued or prosecuted for a shoot. Use some kind of factory ammo for self defence.

    You could alternate 1HP then 1FMJ, 1 HP etc I do that when I am elk hunting in Grizz country, one for a big wound channel and one for penetration.



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    Hey thanks for the post Im a military brat and never really had the oppertunity to go to the Army range and shoot. I have heard of Lake City they are pretty famous company when it comes to ammo.
    So your saying that a custom line of ammo with have aprobability of firing more often and have less failures?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Orphan wrote:
    Every defensive gun class that I have taken the instructors have said not to use reloads for personal defence. Not becausereloads will work or not work but theDistrict attorneywill use that totry toconvict you. Then there is the cost of testing the reloads, I have heard its $20K and that is added right on to the cost of defending your self in court. This is assuming that you get sued or prosecuted for a shoot. Use some kind of factory ammo for self defence.

    You could alternate 1HP then 1FMJ, 1 HP etc I do that when I am elk hunting in Grizz country, one for a big wound channel and one for penetration.



    Orphan
    Hmm... I never considered the possible legal implications of using reloads for self defense...

    I can understand someone trying to use that against you, but do you happen to know on what grounds that would be admissible? Would they call it premeditation or what?

    @Michigander
    Hi buddy.

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    Regular Member Superlite27's Avatar
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    In my personal experience, for what it's worth:

    I have always believed that reliability is the main component of a defensive round. If it doesn't go bang, every time, it doesn't inspire confidence. (Part of the reason we all carry is that we can take comfort in being able to reliably defend ourselves. If you don't have 100% confidence in any part of your carry "mode" or "set-up", there is a hole in your confidence)

    After reliability comes "stopping power" (a mythical term, but one I'll use to relate the idea of effectiveness of a round of ammo at doing what it's supposed to: stop a bad guy) There's a research paper done by the FBI (guy by the name of Ulrick sp? Urich sp? something like that) that is pretty comprehensive - summary: shot placement and permanent wound channel is what does the job. All else is dross.

    In order to stop a bad guy, the gun has to cycle. Everyone knows round nose will always cycle more reliably in a 1911 style pistol due to the design. (uncontrolled feed: where the bullet is not in contact with any controlling component during the feeding process.) In a hollow point bullet, there's a flat front that has a (minute, tiny, fractional) chance of binding.

    Yet, hollow point bullets definately expand to a larger diameter causing a larger permanent wound channel, therefore, effectively having better "stopping power" than FMJ projectiles while also limiting over penetration. It can be argued that hollow points are technically "safer" to pedestrians than FMJ.

    I previously carried Federal Hydra-Shoks and was 100% confident with them. Due to my own nagging sense of confidence, however, I have performed my own personal "performance" testing. This can be a fun and informative thing (if that is the sort of "thing" you're into).

    I purchased a reliable chronograph, various brands of "HD" ammo, and went to town.

    Due to my own research, I now carry my STI Escort with one round of Hornady 200gr hollow point in the tube (Don't have to worry about feeding because it's already in the pipe) and 8 rounds of Cor Bon Pow-R-Ball in the mag. These are hollow point bullets that exit my 3" barrel at about 950 fps, but they have some kind of synthetic "ball" in the holow point void (I think it's teflon coated) so it feeds like a FMJ.

    I'm not sure it is any better of a "set-up" than others are using, but I, personally, have 100% confidence in it. This should be all that matters.

    I would advise you, no matter what you choose to carry, do it because YOU are comfortable with it, not because someone else is. After all, it is mainly SHOT PLACEMENT that does the job as far as bullet effectiveness. The main thing is that it goes "BANG" firstin order to be effective.

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    Evil Creamsicle wrote:
    Orphan wrote:
    Every defensive gun class that I have taken the instructors have said not to use reloads for personal defence. Not becausereloads will work or not work but theDistrict attorneywill use that totry toconvict you. Then there is the cost of testing the reloads, I have heard its $20K and that is added right on to the cost of defending your self in court. This is assuming that you get sued or prosecuted for a shoot. Use some kind of factory ammo for self defence.

    You could alternate 1HP then 1FMJ, 1 HP etc I do that when I am elk hunting in Grizz country, one for a big wound channel and one for penetration.



    Orphan
    Hmm... I never considered the possible legal implications of using reloads for self defense...

    I can understand someone trying to use that against you, but do you happen to know on what grounds that would be admissible? Would they call it premeditation or what?

    @Michigander
    Hi buddy.
    Most likley you will have to pay to test your reloads and if they vary from factory stuff, say 1 ft lb more energy or 1 ft per sec faster they will say you wereplanning to kill someone not just stop a threat. Prosecutors will also bring up the fact that you were carrying a .45 and you could have been carrying a .380 and that makes you a blood thirsty killer. Same thing if you are carrying spare magazines or god forbid that you have to shoot a BG on PCP more than once to stop the threat. Basicaly the District Attorney will use anything to make you look bad and to get a conviction. Yes premeditation and over use of power is what they will try to get a jury to see not the truth. Even if you do not get indited you will most likly face acivil suit by the survivor or their relitives, why give them any more "ammo" than nessicary.

    Disclaimer I am not nor have I ever been a lawyer.

    IMHO If you carry you should have a sit down with a lawyer so you know what might happen, consultations are genneraly free.

    Nemo Me Inpune lacessit

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    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    ok... thats what I figured. Not sure why they always seem to take the stance that 'only cops should have guns' when cops aren't even technically legally responsible for our safety...

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    About reloads vs factory ammo, I've never heard of it being an issue in court, and I definitely haven't heard of a conviction based on carrying or using hand loads in a situation of self defense.

    I hope never to have to even draw on anyone, but if I do, my last concern will be a courts opinion on the merits of hand loads, which are clearly legal to carry in Michigan. Much more important will be if I was justified to draw or shoot, and if there will be other problems like an angry gang trying to kill or sue me.
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  16. #16
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    I don't know about you but if I have to draw on someone my main concern will probably be my life and keeping it.

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    Michigander wrote:
    About reloads vs factory ammo, I've never heard of it being an issue in court, and I definitely haven't heard of a conviction based on carrying or using hand loads in a situation of self defense.

    I hope never to have to even draw on anyone, but if I do, my last concern will be a courts opinion on the merits of hand loads, which are clearly legal to carry in Michigan. Much more important will be if I was justified to draw or shoot, and if there will be other problems like an angry gang trying to kill or sue me.
    One thing I haven't seen anyone on this thread mention....Castle Doctrine. If you are "forced" to defend yourself with deadly force the Castle Doctrine is supposed to keep you safe from prosecution and civil action.....just sayin....
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    SlowDog wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    About reloads vs factory ammo, I've never heard of it being an issue in court, and I definitely haven't heard of a conviction based on carrying or using hand loads in a situation of self defense.

    I hope never to have to even draw on anyone, but if I do, my last concern will be a courts opinion on the merits of hand loads, which are clearly legal to carry in Michigan. Much more important will be if I was justified to draw or shoot, and if there will be other problems like an angry gang trying to kill or sue me.
    One thing I haven't seen anyone on this thread mention....Castle Doctrine. If you are "forced" to defend yourself with deadly force the Castle Doctrine is supposed to keep you safe from prosecution and civil action.....just sayin....
    Unfortunately, some of us are not lucky enough to live in a "Castle Doctrine" state...

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    Xader wrote:
    SlowDog wrote:
    Michigander wrote:
    About reloads vs factory ammo, I've never heard of it being an issue in court, and I definitely haven't heard of a conviction based on carrying or using hand loads in a situation of self defense.

    I hope never to have to even draw on anyone, but if I do, my last concern will be a courts opinion on the merits of hand loads, which are clearly legal to carry in Michigan. Much more important will be if I was justified to draw or shoot, and if there will be other problems like an angry gang trying to kill or sue me.
    One thing I haven't seen anyone on this thread mention....Castle Doctrine. If you are "forced" to defend yourself with deadly force the Castle Doctrine is supposed to keep you safe from prosecution and civil action.....just sayin....
    Unfortunately, some of us are not lucky enough to live in a "Castle Doctrine" state...
    I undestand XADER...I was just reffereing to the post from Michigander who lives here in a "Castle Doctrine" state.....just saying
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...products_id=95

    They use Speer Gold Dot bullets but I guess for legal reasons with Speer they had to take that down on the site and say "bonded defense JHP" instead.

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    But castle doctrine doesn't help when walking the next block over from a
    parade in New Orleans. Then there is the leo perception that it doesn't apply
    if thug is underage. "Yes we have castle doctrine, but they are just children"

    If you make small enough batches, they have no reference for the rounds
    used to use against you.
    What those rounds in the other mag are bad @ss bullets?
    Good thing I didn't shoot those I guess
    .
    Then if you are the 'lucky few', there is the "I'm to young to buy pistol ammo"
    defense.

    Myself I am still looking for reference material on making my own jackets,
    and reliable hp. Contamination is a bear, but I did have one batch that
    acted more like steel jacket than lead, I think some nickel got in it.
    It looked like lead, but cut like iron.
    So have no choice till I can perfect making the rounds like I want.
    I don't have to worry about the court system, unless they prove the
    bullet was made of illegal substances. There is no law against bullets,
    unless you are in NJ, and don't go over 50 cal. everywhere else.

    I've got a ways to go before I start carrying my own SD rounds, but
    eventually I will have the formulas down, and the equipment to make them
    reliable and consistent.
    Would love to use powdered fiberglass as a filler in a HP, that whey you
    know that if you only wing them they have no choice but go to hospital.
    You put a few grams of it in a body, especially a lung cavity, and you can't
    just rinse it out, and stitch shut. Little shards of glass the size of baby powder
    would give police plenty of time to arrive to apprehend while the doc cleans
    out the mess. I remember the pain of getting some in a cut, it is very
    nasty in powder form.
    Alas that is shooting to track, not stop, so till they fix the law.....

    But the simple analogy would be charging drunk drivers with capital murder
    if they put 20" rims on the car, those aren't stock tires so you intended
    to run that women down.


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    For making your own SD ammo - like many have said in the post and from other post out there... don't do it.

    SlackwareRobert you are just opening a can of worms for yourself, if ever you are faced to go to court. Even a legal shoot can turn South and the more "ammo" you give them the worse you are off.

    To clear up what the Castle Doctrine is and isn't. Here's a good simple link.

    Yes, Oregon is covered to some degree (it's way down on the link).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Doctrine



    Back on topic: carry what you like... be it FMJ, HP or whatever. The best recommendation is to carry what your local PD carries.

    Whatever you carry... do make sure it functions in your gun and cycles.So, you got to put a few boxes of the expensive stuff downrange once or twice a year.
    Young Kim, NRA Endowment Member
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    oldkim wrote:
    For making your own SD ammo - like many have said in the post and from other post out there... don't do it.
    Typically on this forum when someone has legal advice, it's backed up by laws and case law, or maybe AG opinions.

    But in this situation, everyone says don't it, but no one can cite any actual legal info that I'm aware of.

    If there is a list of actual cases that lead to convictions of people who used reloads for SD, I might reconsider my views. Otherwise, it's not going to happen.
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  24. #24
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    Amen
    Only two have offered their lives for you. A Soldier and Jesus....

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    oldkim wrote:
    For making your own SD ammo - like many have said in the post and from other post out there... don't do it.
    I would love to have the option of "Don't do it" But you are kidding yourself if you
    think you will be able to just go out and buy it in the long run. Just look at the
    shelves now. Now is the time to learn how to make it, not latter when you have
    no sources. Even if the bans post date me, the knowledge will be needed by my
    children without a doubt. Simple lead rounds are easy, it is the expansion and
    jacket that cause the problems. It is a lot of trial and error, to be able to make
    a repeatable round. But there are several things that you can do that manufacturers
    cannot for cost, volume, and time considerations. Molecular structure alignment
    being one of the biggies. I need to figure out how you vary temp over consistent
    time periods for it still, but the results look like they could be worth it. If you get the
    molecules to always be the same you can get the same results each time.
    I hope liquid oxygen temps will suffice, and not need to go all the way down
    to nitrogen levels, but either way it is one more thing to try. I do know I will
    put the frame to the treatment when I find the company that does it. Worst
    thing about 3am shows when you catch the tail end of stories like that. You know
    they are out there to get it done, but finding them is the problem.





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