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Thread: Do Virgina Community Colleges Fall Under the Preemption?

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    As the title says do Virginia Community Colleges fall under the preemption? Aren't they state funded? Just wondering here.

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    hometheaterman wrote:
    As the title says do Virginia Community Colleges fall under the preemption? Aren't they state funded? Just wondering here.
    If they fall under the same rules as GMU, then no (not yet).

    http://www.virginia1774.org/GMULawsuit.html

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    VaLiberty wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    As the title says do Virginia Community Colleges fall under the preemption? Aren't they state funded? Just wondering here.
    If they fall under the same rules as GMU, then no (not yet).

    http://www.virginia1774.org/GMULawsuit.html

    If they fall under the same rules as UVA they are included. See Attorney General OP. NO. 05-078.

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    So does UVA fall under the preemption? How do you know if they follow the same rules as GMU or not?

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    hometheaterman wrote:
    So does UVA fall under the preemption? How do you know if they follow the same rules as GMU or not?
    I mistyped my last post, fixed it. UVA is covered by preemption. It is legal to carry, open or concealed, on university property (minus dorms, classroom buildings, sporting events and maybe some other places?) There are law codes pertaining specifically to GMU as well as VCU that disallow firearms. I have never seen any such statute make mention on community colleges.

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    leprechaun117 wrote:
    hometheaterman wrote:
    So does UVA fall under the preemption? How do you know if they follow the same rules as GMU or not?
    I mistyped my last post, fixed it. UVA is covered by preemption. It is legal to carry, open or concealed, on university property (minus dorms, classroom buildings, sporting events and maybe some other places?) There are law codes pertaining specifically to GMU as well as VCU that disallow firearms. I have never seen any such statute make mention on community colleges.
    Hell the GMU and VCU things aren't even actual laws, they are in VA Administrative Code, not VA Legislative Code.

    I'm waiting to hear about the gmu lawsuit appeal when the time comes.

    I'll try to attach the AG opinion regarding campus carry.



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    nova wrote:
    Hell the GMU and VCU things aren't even actual laws.
    Actually, regulations are laws.

    State agencies do not fall under the preemption statute because they are not localities. See 15.2-915.

    However, state agencies are impliedly preempted from enacting firearm regulations when (1) promulgation of such regulations fall outside their statutory grant of power, or (2) the legislature has comprehensively occupied the field of regulation already, e.g., the Ag opeinions on state parks which state that the right to carry openly or concealed is universal in the commonwealth save where the General Assembly has said otherwise.

    But see the AG opinion on college carry.

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    Well, I know Blue Ridge doesn't prohibit CC by students with permits, and I've known many people that do.

    See also: http://concealedcampus.org/stateinfo...;name=Virginia
    Why open carry? Because 1911 > 911.

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    Playing devil's advocate to make a point:

    Until and unless there is some statewide case law developed, or the General Assembly decides to add state agencies to the list, state preemption applies only to political subdivisions of the Commonwealth. http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+15.2-915

    Community colleges, colleges and universities are not, AG opinions notwithstanding, political subdivisions of the Commonwealth.

    Adding state agencies to 15.2-915 has been attempted in the past with little support forthcoming. Depending on many factors it may come up again in the next legislative session. If so, it would certainly resolve the constitutionality question of various universties using the Virginia Administrative Code to go around the General Assemby and create law on their own.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    This issue just drives me nuts. First off the use of the term, "pre-emption" and the confusion between "regulation" and "law". But those are essentially semantic issues, so I'll leave well enough alone.

    What really burns my hindquarters is that suit against George Mason; the pro-se plaintiff is a very intelligent guy, and does research really well, but doesn't understand how law works. I'm afraid that if he takes an appeal from the loss in Circuit, he's going to be responsible for giving the Supremes a chance to create precedent which will have the effect of nullifying Va. Code § 15.2-915, and there's no question in my mind that they will do just that. I wish that guy would hire a lawyer - he's in the process of beating his head against the wall, because he doesn't think the wall should be there. Litigation is no place for romantic idealists.

    As written, § 15.2-915 does apply to public colleges and universities. These are municipal corporations, pretty much the same as a town government (not equivalent to cities or counties), and as such constitute "any authority" functioning as "departments" or "agencies" of the Commonwealth. There's no question in my mind that the minute the language quoted below went into effect, the Virginia Code of Administrative Regulations governing ownership and possession of firearms on campus became void (absent a specific statute to the contrary).

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. ...
    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.
    Anyone who questions whether a public postsecondary school is an agency or department of the Commonwealth should consider this: if they are neither agencies nor departments, then they lack the power to publish regulations applicable to the public under the Administrative Procedures Act. How y'all like them apples?
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    I was unaware that you could still practice law in Virginia after being "driven crazy". But it would explain a lot about case law....

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    johnfenter wrote:
    I was unaware that you could still practice law in Virginia after being "driven crazy".* But it would explain a lot about case law....
    I think it's a requirement. But unlike the Soviet Union, where people were assigned jobs (theoretically) according to how they could best serve the State, we live in a country where we are free to choose the occupations that our own peculiar neuroses program us for.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    johnfenter wrote:
    I was unaware that you could still practice law in Virginia after being "driven crazy". But it would explain a lot about case law....
    I'm not sure if his license to practice has been restored, but if you had any quetions about sanity and politics, you need look no further than Delegate Morrissey.:shock:

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    Mike wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Hell the GMU and VCU things aren't even actual laws.
    Actually, regulations are laws.

    State agencies do not fall under the preemption statute because they are not localities. See 15.2-915.

    However, state agencies are impliedly preempted from enacting firearm regulations when (1) promulgation of such regulations fall outside their statutory grant of power, or (2) the legislature has comprehensively occupied the field of regulation already, e.g., the Ag opeinions on state parks which state that the right to carry openly or concealed is universal in the commonwealth save where the General Assembly has said otherwise.

    But see the AG opinion on college carry.
    sorry, you're the law student not me :? I was meaning that they are not actual laws that were passed by the people we elect and send to Richmond to serve us. Kind of like the BS ATF "regulations" that will send you to prison.

    As for preemption and public universities not being a "locality" one could argue the opposite. Functionally, one could argue that a public university is a 'locality'. They have their own administrative board, receive funding from the State, and even have their own fully functioning accredited police department with their own jurisdiction. Even if you call 911 from a cell phone, if your location given to 911 is within GMU's jurisdiction, GMU police are dispatched. I was involved in a vehicular accident on a road adjoining the campus, used my cell to call 911 (other few vehicles were totaled, gas spilled on roadway, airbags of other car deployed) and GMU PD were called out as first responders. They handled it professionally, I might add. Luckly noone was badly hurt and my truck fared better than the other vehicles (car t-boned in intersection and then hit into the front of my pickup).

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    nova wrote:
    Functionally, one could argue that a public university is a 'locality'. They have their own administrative board, receive funding from the State, and even have their own fully functioning accredited police department with their own jurisdiction.
    Functionality is not part of 15.2-915. Theere are 3 types of localities in Virginia: Counties, Cities and Towns.

    Towns are in Counties, Cities are not - for cities, think of it this way: the pepperoni is not in the pizza.

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    We now have lawyers, law students and attorneys (go check the definitions of #1 & #3 if you need to understand the distinction) disagreeing on whether or not post-secondary state schools are covered by 15.2-915. Imagine the confusion that exists in the courts if such a question is put to them.

    If there was ever a call to have the matter clarified by the General Assembly, this ought to be it. Being "represented" by both a Delegate and a Senator who would willingly pull the lever to drop me and my pesky guns into a vat of boiling acid I am not in a position to ask that the matter be drafted and proposed.

    Is there anyone out there who is represented by a more friendly member of the GA? One who would be willing to amend 15.2-915 to specifically include state and local agencies/commissions/etc. and statecolleges/universities in the list of those preempted from regulating firearms matters? Or, rather than try for an exhaustive list of those preempted, just a very clear statement that only the GA can write limitations on firearms, and that all but Code of Virginia regarding firearms is null and void.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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    skidmark wrote:
    We now have lawyers, law students and attorneys (go check the definitions of #1 & #3 if you need to understand the distinction) disagreeing on whether or not post-secondary state schools are covered by 15.2-915. Imagine the confusion that exists in the courts if such a question is put to them.

    If there was ever a call to have the matter clarified by the General Assembly, this ought to be it. Being "represented" by both a Delegate and a Senator who would willingly pull the lever to drop me and my pesky guns into a vat of boiling acid I am not in a position to ask that the matter be drafted and proposed.

    Is there anyone out there who is represented by a more friendly member of the GA? One who would be willing to amend 15.2-915 to specifically include state and local agencies/commissions/etc. and statecolleges/universities in the list of those preempted from regulating firearms matters? Or, rather than try for an exhaustive list of those preempted, just a very clear statement that only the GA can write limitations on firearms, and that all but Code of Virginia regarding firearms is null and void.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I think I can have it introduced Skid, but the first thing they'll say it...

    "Write it up and we'll talk about it".

    Let' come up with a written version.

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    I'll say it again, and I don't think sub-paragraph 1(A) could be any clearer on that point:

    user wrote:
    ...
    As written, § 15.2-915 does apply to public colleges and universities. These are municipal corporations, pretty much the same as a town government (not equivalent to cities or counties), and as such constitute "any authority" functioning as "departments" or "agencies" of the Commonwealth. There's no question in my mind that the minute the language quoted below went into effect, the Virginia Code of Administrative Regulations governing ownership and possession of firearms on campus became void (absent a specific statute to the contrary).

    § 15.2-915. Control of firearms; applicability to authorities and local governmental agencies.

    A. ...
    The provisions of this section applicable to a locality shall also apply to any authority or to a local governmental entity, including a department or agency, but not including any local or regional jail or juvenile detention facility.
    Anyone who questions whether a public postsecondary school is an agency or department of the Commonwealth should consider this: if they are neither agencies nor departments, then they lack the power to publish regulations applicable to the public under the Administrative Procedures Act.
    (and, btw, I'm an "attorney", as well as a "lawyer").
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    skidmark wrote:
    We now have lawyers, law students and attorneys (go check the definitions of #1 & #3 if you need to understand the distinction) disagreeing on whether or not post-secondary state schools are covered by 15.2-915.
    And as a formal AG Opinion was issued on the legality of college restrictions on carry rights, as well as a Fairfax County Circuit Judge in he GMU case recently, and both failed to conclude that a state college was a 'locality" within the nmeaning of 15.2-915, I think this so-called "disagreement" is pretty one sided.

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    Well from my time spent at GMU I've already seen they apply their gun ban to some people and not to others. I've watched several people open carrying firearms in a few different buildings carrying bags of money.

    Guess GMU values it's cash more than the lives of people. :X

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    Mike wrote:
    skidmark wrote:
    We now have lawyers, law students and attorneys (go check the definitions of #1 & #3 if you need to understand the distinction) disagreeing on whether or not post-secondary state schools are covered by 15.2-915.
    And as a formal AG Opinion was issued on the legality of college restrictions on carry rights, as well as a Fairfax County Circuit Judge in he GMU case recently, and both failed to conclude that a state college was a 'locality" within the nmeaning of 15.2-915, I think this so-called "disagreement" is pretty one sided.
    I have to go along with Mike although User, as usual, has very good technical arguments.

    A lot of these discussions remind me of my early motorcycle riding days. When Virginia passed the helmet law, a LOT of riders, myself included, started wearing our helmets on our knee. The law just said I had to wear one.
    I got a ticket and a lecture from the Judge (and a fine).

    The devil may be in the details but the law is what the Judge says

    My father, a lawyer, shook his head and said "Know everything, don't you boy!"

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    nova wrote:
    Well from my time spent at GMU I've already seen they apply their gun ban to some people and not to others. I've watched several people open carrying firearms in a few different buildings carrying bags of money.

    Guess GMU values it's cash more than the lives of people. :X
    It is a well known fact that the rights of Super-Citizens (corporations) outweigh those of us low class average joe's.

    In DC:

    A business owner may keep and bear arms to protect himself
    Businesses regularly have armed 'private security' - Armored Cars, Celebs, various 'attractions' - ie: Holocaust Museum, etc. All have the privileged of full time, private security guards. Because I am not of the same caste, I may not protect myself or my own commercial interests. I bring revenue into DC on a daily basis, but am not afforded the same rights of protection as those carrying cold hard cash.

    Private property owners (malls) regularly allow the folks who operate the ATM's, and stock them with money to carry openly. My favorite, now that the weather is starting to cool, is to watch for low buck security guards inadvertantly carrying concealed. The BOA's around Annandale all have a very visible security guard posted outside, and I have already seen one with their coat covering their piece.

    thus, as they say, always to tyrants.


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    VaLiberty wrote:
    nova wrote:
    Well from my time spent at GMU I've already seen they apply their gun ban to some people and not to others. I've watched several people open carrying firearms in a few different buildings carrying bags of money.

    Guess GMU values it's cash more than the lives of people. :X
    It is a well known fact that the rights of Super-Citizens (corporations) outweigh those of us low class average joe's.

    In DC:

    A business owner may keep and bear arms to protect himself
    Businesses regularly have armed 'private security' - Armored Cars, Celebs, various 'attractions' - ie: Holocaust Museum, etc. All have the privileged of full time, private security guards. Because I am not of the same caste, I may not protect myself or my own commercial interests. I bring revenue into DC on a daily basis, but am not afforded the same rights of protection as those carrying cold hard cash.

    Private property owners (malls) regularly allow the folks who operate the ATM's, and stock them with money to carry openly. My favorite, now that the weather is starting to cool, is to watch for low buck security guards inadvertantly carrying concealed. The BOA's around Annandale all have a very visible security guard posted outside, and I have already seen one with their coat covering their piece.

    thus, as they say, always to tyrants.
    I agree with you, except for the first set examples they're actually exempted or allowed by law whereas with GMU the regulation specifically says "police officer" and defines the term as as "law enforcement officials" and "sworn federal law enforcement officers".

    It also says "In addition to individuals authorized by university policy, George Mason University police officers are lawfully in charge for the purposes of forbidding entry upon or remaining upon university property while possessing or carrying weapons in violation of this prohibition."

    The armored car guys are not sworn law enforcement or LEOs in any way, and are not authorized by university policy to act as such at GMU.


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    nova wrote:
    The armored car guys are not sworn law enforcement or LEOs in any way, and are not authorized by university policy to act as such at GMU.
    They may be Special Conservators of the Peace : http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/pss/how...tions/scop.cfm

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    VaLiberty wrote:
    nova wrote:
    The armored car guys are not sworn law enforcement or LEOs in any way, and are not authorized by university policy to act as such at GMU.
    They may be Special Conservators of the Peace : http://www.dcjs.virginia.gov/pss/how...tions/scop.cfm
    ya know this really interests me so please don't think I'm arguing or trying to pick an internet fight...I'm just bored and have lots of time on my hands between classes and being GMU I have a personal interest in the matter. I looked into Dunbar as well as Wells Fargo Loomis (I don't recall which I saw at GMU, but I'm leaning towards the red Dunbar truck) anyhow on both of their websites it lists under requirements for employment that you must have a valid weapons permit from the state you're working in (on the other site it uses the term 'gun permit'). Both use the job title "driver/guard" so one can assume they are similar to any other armed security guard. Just being a licensed armed security guard in VA does not make one a conservator of the peace.



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