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Thread: Michigan Open Carry Defense Fund

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    I started this from another thread but I felt this deserved it's own starting spot. I was thinking last night that while we're at it, it might be a good idea to get some like minded lawyers to see if they would represent us as a group. With knowing that with a large group who can pool their resources they would be more apt in to taking on a defense if necessary. I've spoken to a few lawyers in the past and they commented that the open carry cases are easier then most criminal cases because usually the underlying charges are trumped up. That way if problems were to result for anyone we'd be protected. What do you think?

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    +1


    Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (who will watch the watchmen?)

    I am not a lawyer. Nothing in any of posts should be construed as legal advice.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    I started this from another thread but I felt this deserved it's own starting spot. I was thinking last night that while we're at it, it might be a good idea to get some like minded lawyers to see if they would represent us as a group. With knowing that with a large group who can pool their resources they would be more apt in to taking on a defense if necessary. I've spoken to a few lawyers in the past and they commented that the open carry cases are easier then most criminal cases because usually the underlying charges are trumped up. That way if problems were to result for anyone we'd be protected. What do you think?
    While it's a great idea on the surface, there poses a problem:

    An average lawyer will cost around $300/hr for legal defense, and you can expect a minimum of 10 hours for each case that this legal defense takes on.

    If we have, oh, 100 people that each put $100 in the pot, we've only got $10,000, or about enough for 3 cases MAXIMUM, likely less.

    Let's not pay mind to the fact that there won't be 100 people, and there won't be $100 from each of them.

    So yeah, great idea, were it to work.

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    I started this from another thread but I felt this deserved it's own starting spot. I was thinking last night that while we're at it, it might be a good idea to get some like minded lawyers to see if they would represent us as a group. With knowing that with a large group who can pool their resources they would be more apt in to taking on a defense if necessary. I've spoken to a few lawyers in the past and they commented that the open carry cases are easier then most criminal cases because usually the underlying charges are trumped up. That way if problems were to result for anyone we'd be protected. What do you think?
    While it's a great idea on the surface, there poses a problem:

    An average lawyer will cost around $300/hr for legal defense, and you can expect a minimum of 10 hours for each case that this legal defense takes on.

    If we have, oh, 100 people that each put $100 in the pot, we've only got $10,000, or about enough for 3 cases MAXIMUM, likely less.

    Let's not pay mind to the fact that there won't be 100 people, and there won't be $100 from each of them.

    So yeah, great idea, were it to work.
    Unfortunately, I think he's right.

    However, I DO think it would be a great idea to not only compile a list of OC friendly gun lawyers (not just gun lawyers in general; for example Jim Simmons is a gun lawyer, but is very anti-OC.) and I also think it would be worth while doing some research on finding lawyers that are gun friendly enough to take on CIVIL cases once the 'criminal' cases are done and over with.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    I could be wrong but didn't Chris Fetters pledge that he would donate money to a legal defense fund if and when he wins his case against Grand Haven?

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    I started this from another thread but I felt this deserved it's own starting spot. I was thinking last night that while we're at it, it might be a good idea to get some like minded lawyers to see if they would represent us as a group. With knowing that with a large group who can pool their resources they would be more apt in to taking on a defense if necessary. I've spoken to a few lawyers in the past and they commented that the open carry cases are easier then most criminal cases because usually the underlying charges are trumped up. That way if problems were to result for anyone we'd be protected. What do you think?
    While it's a great idea on the surface, there poses a problem:

    An average lawyer will cost around $300/hr for legal defense, and you can expect a minimum of 10 hours for each case that this legal defense takes on.

    If we have, oh, 100 people that each put $100 in the pot, we've only got $10,000, or about enough for 3 cases MAXIMUM, likely less.

    Let's not pay mind to the fact that there won't be 100 people, and there won't be $100 from each of them.

    So yeah, great idea, were it to work.
    I really do have some good things in my mind on how to do this. If we were to collect money a 1 time donation would be great but not give the person access to the fund to sustain money for a defense. We'd need to create a fair way allow access to the money. To make a single donation would not be a good way to allow people to have access to such a fund in case of an indecent. Off the top of my head it would have to be something like monthly donations in to the fund or some period an various amount of cash. Only the people who donate regularly would be able to access the money. It also could be something more complicated but I wouldn't advise it. I would think that a static amount donation during regular intervals would be the best way to cover it. We could setup a committee or something that would be responsible for charting the rules for the fund. I'd volunteer my wife as the accountant/cashier (she does it for a living). As a safety everyone involved should sign something stating they agree to abide by the by-laws of the fund and if anyone broke those rules (ie stopped paying or doing something illegal etc.) they would lose access to the fund. I'd also sign a document with my wife stating that we agree to abide by the rules of the fund any by contract we do not have any special use of the fund just because we'd do the accounting.

    With regular donations to the fund in some amount the money would continually build up and there can be more then enough money to defend anyone in the case of an incendent. We could also advertise such a fund (within reason) to make sure we have enough incoming money to sustain enough defense for everyone signed up.

    Let me know what you guys/gals think?

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    dougwg wrote:
    I could be wrong but didn't Chris Fetters pledge that he would donate money to a legal defense fund if and when he wins his case against Grand Haven?
    Your not wrong.

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    Obviously, such a fund can only help in cases where it is likely the fund will be paid back at least in what it paid out upfront, if not more. It must be able to perpetuate itself, grow, and help others, or it would stagnate or die out.

    --The case must be a slam-dunk in favor of the open carrier and likely to draw a significant damage award from a civil lawsuit.
    --Filing of a civil lawsuit, at the appropriate time, is mandatory and the person helped must be party to it and fully participative. This may require the person to burn vacation days or take unpaid time off from work as necessary.
    --All money awards, minus attorney costs, go back into the fund. The person helped may not keep anything. The fund must perpetuate, grow, and help others.

    Those are just some thoughts on some principles, and far from complete.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    mikestilly wrote:
    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    I started this from another thread but I felt this deserved it's own starting spot. I was thinking last night that while we're at it, it might be a good idea to get some like minded lawyers to see if they would represent us as a group. With knowing that with a large group who can pool their resources they would be more apt in to taking on a defense if necessary. I've spoken to a few lawyers in the past and they commented that the open carry cases are easier then most criminal cases because usually the underlying charges are trumped up. That way if problems were to result for anyone we'd be protected. What do you think?
    While it's a great idea on the surface, there poses a problem:

    An average lawyer will cost around $300/hr for legal defense, and you can expect a minimum of 10 hours for each case that this legal defense takes on.

    If we have, oh, 100 people that each put $100 in the pot, we've only got $10,000, or about enough for 3 cases MAXIMUM, likely less.

    Let's not pay mind to the fact that there won't be 100 people, and there won't be $100 from each of them.

    So yeah, great idea, were it to work.
    I really do have some good things in my mind on how to do this. If we were to collect money a 1 time donation would be great but not give the person access to the fund to sustain money for a defense. We'd need to create a fair way allow access to the money. To make a single donation would not be a good way to allow people to have access to such a fund in case of an indecent. Off the top of my head it would have to be something like monthly donations in to the fund or some period an various amount of cash. Only the people who donate regularly would be able to access the money. It also could be something more complicated but I wouldn't advise it. I would think that a static amount donation during regular intervals would be the best way to cover it. We could setup a committee or something that would be responsible for charting the rules for the fund. I'd volunteer my wife as the accountant/cashier (she does it for a living). As a safety everyone involved should sign something stating they agree to abide by the by-laws of the fund and if anyone broke those rules (ie stopped paying or doing something illegal etc.) they would lose access to the fund. I'd also sign a document with my wife stating that we agree to abide by the rules of the fund any by contract we do not have any special use of the fund just because we'd do the accounting.

    With regular donations to the fund in some amount the money would continually build up and there can be more then enough money to defend anyone in the case of an incendent. We could also advertise such a fund (within reason) to make sure we have enough incoming money to sustain enough defense for everyone signed up.

    Let me know what you guys/gals think?
    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.

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    If every case yielded monetary damages, it certianly could be a one-time donation situation. simply raise enough funds to cover at least 2 cases out of the box with stupulations of 50% of the damages being awarded back to the fund.

    Representation for cases where monetary damages would not be in the picture, or representation to prevent charges, however would not fit into this plan, at least not in its infancy.


    By the way, I feel such an "insurance" policy would be worth at least $50 a year.
    United we STAND!

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    DanM wrote:
    Obviously, such a fund can only help in cases where it is likely the fund will be paid back at least in what it paid out upfront, if not more.Â* It must be able to perpetuate itself, grow, and help others, or it would stagnate or die out.

    --The case must be a slam-dunk in favor of the open carrier and likely to draw a significant damage award from a civil lawsuit.
    --Filing of a civil lawsuit, at the appropriate time, is mandatory and the person helped must be party to it and fully participative.Â* This may require the person to burn vacation days or take unpaid time off from work as necessary.
    --All money awards, minus attorney costs, go back into the fund.Â* The person helped may not keep anything.Â* The fund must perpetuate, grow, and help others.

    Those are just some thoughts on some principles, and far from complete.


    If people were paying monthly or at an interval it will pay for itself. As for your other comments that's where the by-laws come in.

    "--The case must be a slam-dunk in favor of the open carrier and likely to draw a significant damage award from a civil lawsuit."

    Most case are not slam dunks. Mater of fact anything can happen in any cases. I wouldn't define something so narrow as that otherwise it would make it way to hard to use the money you put in for defense. Really if you're abiding by the law and get charged with something you should be in the fund (I'm not sure how that's qualified).


    "Filing of a civil lawsuit, at the appropriate time, is mandatory and the person helped must be party to it and fully participative. This may require the person to burn vacation days or take unpaid time off from work as necessary."

    Another comment way too broad. It would depend on the cercomstances of what took place. The lawyers advice on how to proceed should be accepted but if the lawyer says there is a good chance in a civil suit definitely you should be forced in to going that route to help repay the fund.

    *just my thoughts not trying to dictate anything.

    Mike

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    JeffSayers wrote:
    If every case yielded monetary damages, it certianly could be a one-time donation situation. simply raise enough funds to cover at least 2 cases out of the box with stupulations of 50% of the damages being awarded back to the fund.

    Representation for cases where monetary damages would not be in the picture, or representation to prevent charges, however would not fit into this plan, at least not in its infancy.


    By the way, I feel such an "insurance" policy would be worth at least $50 a year.
    Insurance is a better way of looking at it but saying every case yields monetary compensation is far from what happens. A one time payment is a bad way to gain access to the fund. As I see this website grow and having more people around saying a 1 time payment to cover a specific number of cases is impossible to account for. If you donate $50/yr how can you say you have access to a fund with thousands of dollars. It's just not a fair way to do it. 1 case can be $50,000+ considering that there are a small number of cases it would work just like an insurance company the money will continue to grow month after month until used. I just cant see it working with 1 time payments in to it.

    I really see a ton of benefit in something like this because I myself OC less often because I'm paranoid about a lawsuit because my family couldn't afford one. I would OC much much much more often if I knew I had OC insurance!

    Mike

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    mikestilly wrote:
    Insurance is a better way of looking at it but saying every case yields monetary compensation is far from what happens. A one time payment is a bad way to gain access to the fund. As I see this website grow and having more people around saying a 1 time payment to cover a specific number of cases is impossible to account for. If you donate $50/yr how can you say you have access to a fund with thousands of dollars. It's just not a fair way to do it. 1 case can be $50,000+ considering that there are a small number of cases it would work just like an insurance company the money will continue to grow month after month until used. I just cant see it working with 1 time payments in to it.
    Agreed, sometimes I just speak to fast to convey what my gray stuff is thinking.

    Set up 2 funds. 1 would be a single donation for civil suits only, acces granted by a vote of the board after a recomendation from approved counsel. In a picturesque world, this fund would supplement the second, making a reasonable "premium" attainable.

    Of course, everything would still come down to "seed money".
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    JeffSayers wrote:

    Agreed, sometimes I just speak to fast to convey what my gray stuff is thinking.

    Set up 2 funds. 1 would be a single donation for civil suits only, acces granted by a vote of the board after a recomendation from approved counsel. In a picturesque world, this fund would supplement the second, making a reasonable "premium" attainable.

    Of course, everything would still come down to "seed money".
    We have some good ideas here already. I'm interested to see what others think. In my opinion is 2 funds is a bad idea for the reasons I stated above and it would reduce the amount of people in the regularly recurring fund. I don't see how taking 1 time donations would work. 1 lawsuit would wipe out the fund and you would have to have 100's of new people to refill the fund for others to use it. Not only that but you'd also need some very large donations unless you know of 1000s of people who would donate in a one time donation.

    With the insurance like type of fund regular small donations by everyone would work and sustain defense for people as lawsuits came up.

    A fund is a really damn good way to promote OC. Just think about it. It will force the police to have better training on OC otherwise they will have to deal with lawsuits. It will promote the cause of OC by giving positive exposure. Not only that it's something that could be picked up by other states. If the harassment is bad enough and illegal enough and we had enough proof and advise from a lawyers we could file suits. From what I heard from the stories of harassment on here many of these cops involved are breaking the law and violating peoples civil rights. We want police to do their jobs and follow the law regardless of their political reasons are on the subject. This is definitely a way to do it. :celebrate

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    You know if this takes off I'm going to try an work with others in different states with legal OC to setup funds for their states.

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    Honestly, for anyone involved, it'd be much cheaper to get NRA legal defense insurance.

    http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Honestly, for anyone involved, it'd be much cheaper to get NRA legal defense insurance.

    http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm
    Glad to hear of this.

    However, I question if the "alleged criminal actions involving self-defense" would apply to alleged criminal actions involving carrying.
    United we STAND!

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    zigziggityzoo wrote:
    Honestly, for anyone involved, it'd be much cheaper to get NRA legal defense insurance.

    http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm
    That coverage is awesome but one problem. I called and spoke to a very nice lady there. You are covered only in the act of defending yourself. There is nothing in the policy that covers you just in the event of charges arising from carrying concealed or open carry only. So it's good if you ever are forced in to an act of using your firearm in self defense but would not work for what we've discussed above.

    If you want to read the legal crap its on there. I pasted the part I needed her to clarify.

    B. LEGALLY POSSESSED FIREARM:
    DEFENSE, SETTLEMENT,
    SUPPLEMENTARY PAYMENTS.
    With respect to any “act of self defense” covered under this policy, but not covered under any other valid and collectible insurance,
    Underwriters shall:
    (i) defend any suit against the “Individual Insured Member”
    alleging such “bodily injury” or “property damage” and seeking “damages” on account thereof, even if such suit is groundless, false or fraudulent; but Underwriters shall have the right to make such investigation and negotiate a settlement of any claim or suit as may be deemed expedient
    by Underwriters; (ii) pay as expenses all premiums on
    bonds to release attachments for an amount not in excess of the LIMITS OF LIABILITY of this policy, all premiums on appeal bonds required in any such defended suit (but without any obligation to apply for or furnish
    such bonds), all costs taxed against the “Individual Insured Member” in any such suit, and all other
    expenses incurred by Underwriters including interest accruing after entry of judgment, until Underwriters have paid, tendered or deposited in court that part of such judgment as does not exceed the LIMITS OF LIABILITY for
    “damages” as set forth in Insuring Agreement 7. C.;
    (iii) reimburse the “Individual Insured Member” for all reasonable expenses, other than loss of earnings, incurred at Underwriter’s request in assisting Underwriters in the investigation or defense of any claim or suit.
    Underwriters agree to pay the expenses incurred under Insuring Agreement 7. B. in addition to the LIMITS OF LIABILITY stated herein; and such expenses shall not be included as part of “damages” as defined in this policy.
    Underwriters shall not defend the “Individual Insured Member” nor be obligated to pay for costs and expenses incurred in the defense of any criminal proceeding against the “Individual Insured Member” under Insuring Agreements
    7.A. and B. Underwriter’s obligation to defend suits and pay any “damages” under Insuring Agreements 7.A.
    and B. shall terminate upon the “Individual Insured Members” conviction of any criminal charge emanating from the “Individual Insured Members” use of a “firearm”.

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    mikestilly wrote:

    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.
    Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aprofound changein local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about thetotal lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

    Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedfor a court battle.

    Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.

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    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:

    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.
    Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aÂ*profound changeÂ*in local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about theÂ*total lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

    Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedÂ*for a court battle.

    Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.
    I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.

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    The only way I can see this being probable is if the following are accomplished and done:
    (It might be a difficult road, but then again, it might not be, it really depends on how much effort we put into it.)

    1.) We're going to have to do some MONDO fund raising. We're going to have to think of some ideas that are going to work, and we're going to have to have someone take care of the money, and be honest about it. I don't think honesty will be an issue, but raising money will be. When we were talking about changes on MGO, I mentioned a self-defense fund, and was told numerous times that MGO won't be able to raise nearly enough money to have a self-defense fund. They have 5x more members than we do. I hate to say it, but if that's the case, that's kind of discouraging.

    2.) I think we need to sit down with a lawyer and write up a contract that says if you use MOC money to win your case, and are awarded monetary damages, that you are to pay 20+% of your total winnings back to MOC, no questions asked. It's only fair to keep us going.

    3.) We're going to have to figure out a system of how claims are processed, and what they are processed for. Who get's the money and who doesn't? Do only contributing members get money? Can anyone waltz up here and file a claim? How are claims processed? Do we give money for OC-related cases only? What about Self-defense cases? I think we're going to need to create a board of trustees or something along those lines to make these decisions.



    If we're going to do this on a serious note, we can't just jump right in. It needs to be thought out and planned accordingly.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

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    mikestilly wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:

    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.
    Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aprofound changein local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about thetotal lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

    Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedfor a court battle.

    Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.
    I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.
    I hope my wording wasn't misleading... Iagree withthis idea 100%

    What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

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    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:

    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.
    Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aprofound changein local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about thetotal lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

    Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedfor a court battle.

    Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.
    I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.
    I hope my wording wasn't misleading... Iagree withthis idea 100%

    What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.
    Why? If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with. And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds. MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).

    And many of these happenedearly on. The word is getting outand more people are OCing than ever before. If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

    If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do. Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions. Read all you can on this forum. If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.
    An easily respectable decision in my opinion, because all that we're here to do is let people know their options, and let them go from there. Some people in this community never open carry, and I say that's perfect it they don't want to. Everyone has their own needs, beliefs and concerns. You and only you should decide what you want to do in the realm of lawful carrying.

    But I do encourage you to learn everything you can, and indeed to come to the events to make a well rounded decision about what you want to do.


    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  25. #25
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    Venator wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    mikestilly wrote:

    Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.
    Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aÂ*profound changeÂ*in local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about theÂ*total lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

    Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedÂ*for a court battle.

    Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.
    I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.
    I hope my wording wasn't misleading... IÂ*agree withÂ*this idea 100%

    What I'm saying is that I am stillÂ*reluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.
    Why?Â* If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with.Â* And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds.Â* MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).Â*

    And many of these happenedÂ*early on.Â* The word is getting outÂ*and more people are OCing than ever before.Â* If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

    If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do.Â* Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions.Â* Read all you can on this forum.Â* If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.
    It's very disengenious to think that all open carry cases are easy to defend and are cheap. I reality it can be the complete opposite. I feel if people buy in to what you said they may one day find out the hard way that what you said is not nessarily true. Every court case is different and so are the costs. I personally would never defend myself without a lawyer. If it was a quick dismissal all I'd have to pay is $100 maybe less. If you want examples of why I have many. Some actually happend to me.

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