Michigan Open Carry Defense Fund

malignity · Sep 9, 2009

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The only way I can see this being probable is if the following are accomplished and done:
(It might be a difficult road, but then again, it might not be, it really depends on how much effort we put into it.)

1.) We're going to have to do some MONDO fund raising. We're going to have to think of some ideas that are going to work, and we're going to have to have someone take care of the money, and be honest about it. I don't think honesty will be an issue, but raising money will be. When we were talking about changes on MGO, I mentioned a self-defense fund, and was told numerous times that MGO won't be able to raise nearly enough money to have a self-defense fund. They have 5x more members than we do. I hate to say it, but if that's the case, that's kind of discouraging.

2.) I think we need to sit down with a lawyer and write up a contract that says if you use MOC money to win your case, and are awarded monetary damages, that you are to pay 20+% of your total winnings back to MOC, no questions asked. It's only fair to keep us going.

3.) We're going to have to figure out a system of how claims are processed, and what they are processed for. Who get's the money and who doesn't? Do only contributing members get money? Can anyone waltz up here and file a claim? How are claims processed? Do we give money for OC-related cases only? What about Self-defense cases? I think we're going to need to create a board of trustees or something along those lines to make these decisions.

If we're going to do this on a serious note, we can't just jump right in. It needs to be thought out and planned accordingly.

GP-P11 · Sep 9, 2009

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mikestilly wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.

Click to expand...

Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aprofound changein local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about thetotal lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedfor a court battle.

Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.

Click to expand...

I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.

I hope my wording wasn't misleading... Iagree withthis idea 100%

What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

Venator · Sep 9, 2009

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GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.

Click to expand...

Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or aprofound changein local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about thetotal lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

Call me cowardly, I call it unequippedfor a court battle.

Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.

Click to expand...

I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.

Click to expand...

I hope my wording wasn't misleading... Iagree withthis idea 100%

What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

Why? If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with. And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds. MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).

And many of these happenedearly on. The word is getting outand more people are OCing than ever before. If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do. Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions. Read all you can on this forum. If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.

Michigander · Sep 9, 2009

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GP-P11 wrote:

What I'm saying is that I am stillreluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

An easily respectable decision in my opinion, because all that we're here to do is let people know their options, and let them go from there. Some people in this community never open carry, and I say that's perfect it they don't want to. Everyone has their own needs, beliefs and concerns. You and only you should decide what you want to do in the realm of lawful carrying.

But I do encourage you to learn everything you can, and indeed to come to the events to make a well rounded decision about what you want to do.

mikestilly · Sep 10, 2009

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Venator wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.

Click to expand...

Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or a profound change in local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about the total lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

Call me cowardly, I call it unequipped for a court battle.

Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.

Click to expand...

I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.

Click to expand...

I hope my wording wasn't misleading... I agree with this idea 100%

What I'm saying is that I am still reluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

Click to expand...

Why? If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with. And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds. MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).

And many of these happened early on. The word is getting out and more people are OCing than ever before. If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do. Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions. Read all you can on this forum. If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.

It's very disengenious to think that all open carry cases are easy to defend and are cheap. I reality it can be the complete opposite. I feel if people buy in to what you said they may one day find out the hard way that what you said is not nessarily true. Every court case is different and so are the costs. I personally would never defend myself without a lawyer. If it was a quick dismissal all I'd have to pay is $100 maybe less. If you want examples of why I have many. Some actually happend to me.

dougwg · Sep 10, 2009

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mikestilly wrote:

zigziggityzoo wrote:

Honestly, for anyone involved, it'd be much cheaper to get NRA legal defense insurance.

http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm

Click to expand...

That coverage is awesome but one problem. I called and spoke to a very nice lady there. You are covered only in the act of defending yourself. There is nothing in the policy that covers you just in the event of charges arising from carrying concealed or open carry only. So it's good if you ever are forced in to an act of using your firearm in self defense but would not work for what we've discussed above.

If you want to read the legal crap its on there. I pasted the part I needed her to clarify.

B. LEGALLY POSSESSED FIREARM:
DEFENSE, SETTLEMENT,
SUPPLEMENTARY PAYMENTS.
With respect to any “act of self defense” covered under this policy, but not covered under any other valid and collectible insurance,
Underwriters shall:
(i) defend any suit against the “Individual Insured Member”
alleging such “bodily injury” or “property damage” and seeking “damages” on account thereof, even if such suit is groundless, false or fraudulent; but Underwriters shall have the right to make such investigation and negotiate a settlement of any claim or suit as may be deemed expedient
by Underwriters; (ii) pay as expenses all premiums on
bonds to release attachments for an amount not in excess of the LIMITS OF LIABILITY of this policy, all premiums on appeal bonds required in any such defended suit (but without any obligation to apply for or furnish
such bonds), all costs taxed against the “Individual Insured Member” in any such suit, and all other
expenses incurred by Underwriters including interest accruing after entry of judgment, until Underwriters have paid, tendered or deposited in court that part of such judgment as does not exceed the LIMITS OF LIABILITY for
“damages” as set forth in Insuring Agreement 7. C.;
(iii) reimburse the “Individual Insured Member” for all reasonable expenses, other than loss of earnings, incurred at Underwriter’s request in assisting Underwriters in the investigation or defense of any claim or suit.
Underwriters agree to pay the expenses incurred under Insuring Agreement 7. B. in addition to the LIMITS OF LIABILITY stated herein; and such expenses shall not be included as part of “damages” as defined in this policy.
Underwriters shall not defend the “Individual Insured Member” nor be obligated to pay for costs and expenses incurred in the defense of any criminal proceeding against the “Individual Insured Member” under Insuring Agreements
7.A. and B. Underwriter’s obligation to defend suits and pay any “damages” under Insuring Agreements 7.A.
and B. shall terminate upon the “Individual Insured Members” conviction of any criminal charge emanating from the “Individual Insured Members” use of a “firearm”.

And what if you were OCing and acted in self defense against illegal detainment and illegal search and seizure?

mikestilly · Sep 10, 2009

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She said to me specifically would not be covered. You're free to call the # is there on the site

JeffSayers · Sep 10, 2009

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dougwg wrote:

And what if you were OCing and acted in self defense against illegal detainment and illegal search and seizure?

Wow, there's a lot of heat behind that one. I would hope your defense would be ltl.

Anyway, what about pooled resources. If we could put this out on the national level we just might find affordable premiums from an underwritter. Heck, maybe someone could convince the NRA to entertain the idea; since they already contract for similar insurance, it might help the cause even more so.

zigziggityzoo · Sep 10, 2009

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Venator wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

GP-P11 wrote:

mikestilly wrote:

Think about it this way. How many more people would be much more comfortable with OC'ing in general if they knew they had a safety net in case some over zealous cop(s) decides to violate their rights. Not only would it make people more comfortable I feel it will help spread the word.

Click to expand...

Much agreed. Considering what may be at stake, depending on the charges and such, and how much money (of which i have practically none) it will cost to fight a BS legal battle in court, I have unfortunately concluded that without reliable protection, a buttload of money and a great lawyer, or a profound change in local law/policy, I simply cannot afford to risk OC'ing unless ABSOLUTELY necessary, given what I have been reading and hearing about the total lack of acceptance of this practice among local LE agencies.

Call me cowardly, I call it unequipped for a court battle.

Guarantee that a skilled lawyer will be provided and paid for, and Id feel better about it.

Click to expand...

I'm going to put it this way. If this idea doesnt pan out I'm going to fund my own legal fund. I cant afford to get caught with my pants down on it.

Click to expand...

I hope my wording wasn't misleading... I agree with this idea 100%

What I'm saying is that I am still reluctant to OC without a fund of this sort.

Click to expand...

Why? If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with. And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds. MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).

And many of these happened early on. The word is getting out and more people are OCing than ever before. If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do. Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions. Read all you can on this forum. If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.

For the record, a recent case in my family cost $2500 to defend. And that was for fighting a civil infraction (they won).

springerdave · Sep 10, 2009

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Dougwg asked, "And what if you were OCing and acted in self defense against illegal detainment and illegal search and seizure?" and the NRA said "but Underwriters shall have the right to make such investigation and negotiate a settlement of any claim or suit as may be deemed expedient" The NRA is going to drop it if it gets too hot, did you not see their "but" sticking out there? Beware any time someone assures you then says but.springerdave.

Venator · Sep 10, 2009

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mikestilly wrote:

It's very disengenious to think that all open carry cases are easy to defend and are cheap. I reality it can be the complete opposite. I feel if people buy in to what you said they may one day find out the hard way that what you said is not nessarily true. Every court case is different and so are the costs. I personally would never defend myself without a lawyer. If it was a quick dismissal all I'd have to pay is $100 maybe less. If you want examples of why I have many. Some actually happend to me.

Look, do what you want. I cited some actual cases, you are free to do what you will. I never said court was cheap. The case where the person pleaded was $6,500 and it never made it to a trial. The other people that defended themselves only lost their time and wages. And as I stated some received financial help from gun groups.

OC will get easier as more people do it and challenge the status quo and inform LE agencies about the legality of OC. I suggest you wait until others make it safe for you to go into the water, before you take the plunge.

You are free to do as you want, but don't let fear rule your life or you will end up never leaving the house.

ghostrider · Sep 10, 2009

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mikestilly wrote:

Venator wrote:

Why? If you are not breaking the law, there is little they can charge you with. And the few times some PD jacked up someone about half represented themselves and won, and two others got help with funds. MOC guys raised about $1,500 in about 36 hours for Chris Fetter (charges dropped) and MCRGO's gave $3,000 to another (plead to a lesser charge..gray area IWB holster).

And many of these happenedearly on. The word is getting outand more people are OCing than ever before. If you have a CPL you don't have a lot to worry about.

If you don't have a CPL you need to be more careful and learn all you can about OCing before you do. Come to a Picnic in your area and ask questions. Read all you can on this forum. If you read the experience threads you will see that the vast majority of them are non-issues.

Click to expand...

It's very disengenious to think that all open carry cases are easy to defend and are cheap. I reality it can be the complete opposite. I feel if people buy in to what you said they may one day find out the hard way that what you said is not nessarily true. Every court case is different and so are the costs. I personally would never defend myself without a lawyer. If it was a quick dismissal all I'd have to pay is $100 maybe less. If you want examples of why I have many. Some actually happend to me.

The only thing that makes one have less to worry about with a CPL is that, "it's concealed, and therefore less noticeable." Just because you have a CPL doesn't mean the cops won't harass you for it. It just means they are less likely to see it, and if they don't see it, they won't make an issue of it. There's plenty of negative LEO-Gun Owner encounters that had nothing to do with OC.

JeffSayers · Sep 10, 2009

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We have multiple individuals with possible cases right now. Even if we can't create the golden defense fund, lets try to help at least one of these people fight back. Post your pledges here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/31319.html

TheRabbitsHole · Sep 12, 2009

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Here's a thought... after reading through all this, I found it very confusing to read post after post after post of thoughts and suggestions.

Perhaps if a rough draft of a full charter/contract were to be drawn up in regards to how everything was handled in every conceiveable outcome, it could be commented on, redrafted and resuggested for critique.

Also I may be willing to create a real-time spreadsheet/database of pledges, PM me if you're interested. (talking fully optimizable custom coded website with administrative back end for all data, such as dates, names, amount, received +whatever else may be needed)

choover · Sep 15, 2009

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Just a ideal. While I do not think that this is a bad ideal I think one that would help further the cause more would be raising money for use in advertising.. Gun magazines..billboards

There is strength in numbers. Possibly a focused effort on furthering recruitment with solid advertising would have more of a impact that one court case.. and would seem more legitiment for the organization.

TheRabbitsHole · Sep 15, 2009

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choover wrote:

Just a ideal. While I do not think that this is a bad ideal I think one that would help further the cause more would be raising money for use in advertising.. Gun magazines..billboards There is strength in numbers. Possibly a focused effort on furthering recruitment with solid advertising would have more of a impact that one court case.. and would seem more legitiment for the organization.

That's actually not a bad idea. It could have a much wider effect on education. With more education, there would be less legal issues. (in theory)

Venator · Sep 15, 2009

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choover wrote:

Just a ideal. While I do not think that this is a bad ideal I think one that would help further the cause more would be raising money for use in advertising.. Gun magazines..billboards There is strength in numbers. Possibly a focused effort on furthering recruitment with solid advertising would have more of a impact that one court case.. and would seem more legitiment for the organization.

Wonderful idea. One place peoplecan can help is by joining MOC for $20 a year. MOC has the potential resource's to do several of the ideas posted on this forum. Yet most that have these ideas are not members of MOC.

Advertising is expensive. For example the NRA rifleman magazine charges $60,000 for a color cover. Yes $60,000 for one cover one month. A billboard on I-75 in the metro area is $6,500 per month. Granted these are extremes, but it gives you an idea of the money involved in advertising. MOC's funds are well, well, well, well under these amounts.

You can help MOC grow by buying merchandise, paying dues, giving donations and organizing fundraisers. Members can run for office and vote for officers. The more members we have the more LE departments and legislators will listen to us.

Court cases set precedent and help sway future prosecutions, so they help immensely if they rule in your favor. Law suits gets everyones attention and can serve as a caveat for other departments that want to press the issue.

choover · Sep 15, 2009

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Thats my thought. NRA has so much power because of the numbers in the ranks. I think just trying to raise money to file a lawsuit gives the wrong impression on us as a group possibly, where in having more people in the ranks increases the amount on inate support we have. Baby steps first imho. And I think it would be easier to raise money if we say we want to run a ad in such and such place and we will do so as soon as X dollars are raised.

Guest · Sep 15, 2009

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Venator wrote:

mikesilly wrote:

It's very disengenious to think that all open carry cases are easy to defend and are cheap. I reality it can be the complete opposite. I feel if people buy in to what you said they may one day find out the hard way that what you said is not nessarily true. Every court case is different and so are the costs. I personally would never defend myself without a lawyer. If it was a quick dismissal all I'd have to pay is $100 maybe less. If you want examples of why I have many. Some actually happend to me.

Click to expand...

I suggest you wait until others make it safe for you to go into the water, before you take the plunge.

You are free to do as you want, but don't let fear rule your life or you will end up never leaving the house.

Well put!!!

When I said something like this on another thread I got called a dick. You're more eloquent in your approach. Like the "old" saying... "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen."

But you're right on. In the begining there are few patriots. As the risks become fewer, the number of patriots begins to grow.

TheRabbitsHole · Sep 15, 2009

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Venator wrote:

Wonderful idea. One place peoplecan can help is by joining MOC for $20 a year. MOC has the potential resource's to do several of the ideas posted on this forum. Yet most that have these ideas are not members of MOC.

I'd really love to join the cause and offer my time and support, but being unemployed & fighting for Social Security Disability benefits, I really can't afford the $20. (Anyone whose been involved with that I'm sure knows how much a PITA it is)

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