• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

A Fool Killed First?

Francis Marion

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
194
Location
Taylorsville, Utah, USA
imported post

The concept of law abiding citizens openly carrying firearms has many perceived disadvantages that have been brandished by its opponents. These arguments are both plentiful and varied but, for this article, I will stick to just one, the argument that the openly armed citizen is extremely foolish because he will be the first person killed in a violent altercation.

I decided to address this topic because it is one that I feel I am more qualified to address than most people who argue on either side of the issue. I am quickly approaching 25 years in the U.S. Army Special Forces; in common terms, I am a Green Beret. Most people do not know anything about what we do beyond what they learned from John Rambo so; let me briefly describe what we really are. We are teachers. We train indigenous people in the art of war. We are uniquely trained and staffed to turn an outlaw band of misfits into a well disciplined military force. This requires us to understand the full spectrum of warfare especially the unconventional nature of insurgency and counter-insurgency tactics. We must be prepared to be both wolf and sheepdog and I understand how to succeed in both roles.

Most of the people who claim that open carry is a foolish act have extensive military and law enforcement experience. This is understandable because they see the world only as sheepdogs. The sheepdog has the resources of the state at his disposal and has the luxury of challenging threats as they appear. They visualize a conventional force on force approach where they identify the greatest threat and eliminate it first. This is very natural and logical when you are not restricted by limited resources.

Criminals are simple capitalists; they must weigh the risk vs. the return based on their limited resources. They must choose a victim with a reward that exceeds the risk of being caught or killed. A number of factors must be considered and one of the greatest factors is the odds of a victim being armed. In a location where guns are banned, a criminal can rely on his stature and threats of violence to subdue his victim and risks are low. In places where concealed carry is allowed the risk is greater but still, even in locations like Utah where Concealed Firearm Permits are easily available, only a very small percentage of people actually carry a gun on a regular basis. Now imagine a location where the chance of encountering an armed victim is 100%. In this location, the risks quickly outweigh most returns which clearly illustrates the value of an openly carried firearm as a deterrent against the common criminal.

When the return is worth the risk of an armed victim it generally requires a trained criminal. The professional or determined criminal has greater resources and principles like reconnaissance and planning come into play. At Columbine the perpetrators were intimately familiar with their objective and planned to eliminate the one armed officer on campus first. In this situation, the school resource officer was a known constant and the plan included him. The armed citizen is always a variable and Trolley Square and the Colorado church shootings are good examples of how easy it is for just one armed citizen to crash a plan.

I have already addressed the risk vs. return in the criminal mind, how the reward occasionally compensates for the risk of attacking an armed victim, and the requirement for planning to mitigate the risks. What happens when the random and openly armed citizen enters the objective just prior to the assault? My training and experience tells me that if the objective changes then the plan must also be changed to compensate. If planning time or resources are not available to compensate for the change then the operation must be delayed or aborted. An actual case reinforces this concept.

Jose Vigoa is a KGB trained Cuban who is famous for “Taking Vegas by Storm.” He stole millions from casinos and armored cars and killed two security guards in the process. He admitted to canceling a robbery attempt on an armored car when just one man with a gun walked past his objective.

There is no way to know how many crimes have been prevented by just the visible presence of a gun yet we still hear the tales like the one told by Vigoa. It would be much easier to count how many openly armed citizens were targeted first but I have not been able to find even one situation after more than a year of searching.

After extensive study and reflection, I have come to the conclusion that openly carrying a firearm as a citizen is not a foolish act that will only get me shot first but rather the best crime deterrent that I can bring with me.
 

Dahwg

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
661
Location
Tucson, Arizona, USA
imported post

Well said! Thank you for the effort, we say the same thing here on a daily basis, perhaps not quite as eloquently so thank you for your effort.
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

Francis Marion wrote:
I decided to address this topic because it is one that I feel I am more qualified to address than most people who argue on either side of the issue. I am quickly approaching 25 years in the U.S. Army Special Forces; in common terms, I am a Green Beret.
What group are you in? I was in B-2-10 from 1978 to 1983. There are a few more of us in here too, Razor Baghdad is one I can think of off hand.

I was at Taji from 2004- 2007. We probably know each other. Welcome to OCDO!
 

kellyII

New member
Joined
Sep 9, 2009
Messages
9
Location
Baghdad, , Iraq
imported post

Very well put marion, I have the same thoughts on OC as well.

Let me say hello from a fellow brother, and Thanks for your 25yr service as well
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

First, thank you sir for your service to our nation. We don't forget people like yourself.

Excellent evaluation coupled with fine points as backup. I do both; open and concealed carry, but I tend to open carry far more than I do concealed. One of the things I see that many who argue against OC fail to accept or understand is this. When you conceal your piece, you look just like everyone else. So if something suddenly goes down, you are in the same boat as other "victims" at least for a moment. And that moment could be your last.

When OC'ing, you have something on your side that basically advertises your condition to others. I is a silent speaker, if you will. As you stated, one will most likely never know who or how many BG's have been turned away from you by your silent friend. And for me, this is important since my knees no longer afford me the ability to fight or run as I was once able to do.

Thanks for a fine posting. And BTW, I love your handle and wonder how many know who Francis Marion was.
 

Francis Marion

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
194
Location
Taylorsville, Utah, USA
imported post

WheelGun wrote:
I would like your permission to have the original posting engraved on a bronze plaque.
????

I will admit that it did take considerable time and effort to put this piece together, but I never thought it was worth bronzing. Feel free to preserve it any way you like but if you change it from just bits and pixels you should properly attribute it to my real name, Sam Fidler.

BTW, I chose Francis Marion as my online persona in honor of Americas first unconventional warrior.
 

Larry0071

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2009
Messages
25
Location
Beaver County, Pennsylvania, USA
imported post

SouthernBoy wrote:
Thanks for a fine posting. And BTW, I love your handle and wonder how many know who Francis Marion was.

Interesting. I had never heard of him. My initial thought was the movie COBRA with Marion Cobretti (Sylvester Stallone). I was very wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

Francis Marion (February 26, 1732February 27, 1795) was a military officer who served in the American Revolutionary War. Acting with Continental Army and South Carolina militia commissions, he was a persistent adversary of the British in their occupation of South Carolina in 1780 and 1781, even after the Continental Army was driven out of the state in the Battle of Camden. Due to his irregular methods of warfare, he is considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare, and is credited in the lineage of the United States Army Rangers.
 

Francis Marion

Regular Member
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
194
Location
Taylorsville, Utah, USA
imported post

Larry0071 wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Thanks for a fine posting. And BTW, I love your handle and wonder how many know who Francis Marion was.

Interesting. I had never heard of him. My initial thought was the movie COBRA with Marion Cobretti (Sylvester Stallone). I was very wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

Francis Marion (February 26, 1732February 27, 1795) was a military officer who served in the American Revolutionary War. Acting with Continental Army and South Carolina militia commissions, he was a persistent adversary of the British in their occupation of South Carolina in 1780 and 1781, even after the Continental Army was driven out of the state in the Battle of Camden. Due to his irregular methods of warfare, he is considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare, and is credited in the lineage of the United States Army Rangers.
The older generation here will probably remember him best from the way Walt Disney portrayed him as the Swamp Fox. For the younger generation, Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot was very loosely based on Francis Marion.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
imported post

Francis Marion wrote:
Larry0071 wrote:
SouthernBoy wrote:
Thanks for a fine posting. And BTW, I love your handle and wonder how many know who Francis Marion was.

Interesting. I had never heard of him. My initial thought was the movie COBRA with Marion Cobretti (Sylvester Stallone). I was very wrong!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion

Francis Marion (February 26, 1732February 27, 1795) was a military officer who served in the American Revolutionary War. Acting with Continental Army and South Carolina militia commissions, he was a persistent adversary of the British in their occupation of South Carolina in 1780 and 1781, even after the Continental Army was driven out of the state in the Battle of Camden. Due to his irregular methods of warfare, he is considered one of the fathers of modern guerrilla warfare, and is credited in the lineage of the United States Army Rangers.
The older generation here will probably remember him best from the way Walt Disney portrayed him as the Swamp Fox. For the younger generation, Mel Gibson's character in The Patriot was very loosely based on Francis Marion.
When in school, we of course we studied the American Revolution and Francis Marion was discussed during this time as was another one of my childhood heros; John Singleton Mosby, aka The Grey Ghost. These men were special and did much for our country (I am Southern). Col. Mosby is buried around 15 miles from my house and I have visited his grave site on several occasions and been by his home - now a museum to his honor. I am almost certain my research has turned up four family members, by marriage, who were associated with and/or rode with Col. Mosby.

The Swamp Fox made life miserable for the British and thank God he did. They were not exactly the most kind of enemies and deserved being run out of the country.
 

ODA 226

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
1,603
Location
Etzenricht, Germany
imported post

Francis Marion wrote:
ODA 226 wrote:
What group are you in?
I started out in the 19th SFG then went active with A/3/3 in '91. I taught at Cp. Mackall '96-'97 and returned to the 19th in '98.
Sam,

When you were a TAC at Mackall were you SERE, F co or G co?

Craig
 

Grapeshot

Legendary Warrior
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
35,317
Location
Valhalla
imported post

Over they years I have heard this argument against OC many times. I have always responded the same way, "Show me one instance in modern times in the fifty states where a non-LEO/security/military was preemptively taken out. ." No one has ever come back with a verifiable cite.

The kicker is that if one such event eventually occurs, the resultant percentage ratio will be something like .00001% and those are odds I can easily accept.

I have in my many years of reading not come across one such story. I have; however, personally heard of many times where the sight of a weapon turned potential aggressors around and have myself experienced that on more than one occasion.

It is far, far better in my opinion to have not had to draw or discharge my weapon but merely let my "friend" speak for me than it would have been to deal with the aftermath of even the most righteous shooting.

Yata hey
 
Top