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Thread: Interesting talks with Kentwood PD

  1. #1
    GP-P11
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    A while ago I called K.P.D. , asking for their input on OC... I kept it vague, to see what their response would be when not being led, and the guy on the phone told me flat-out thatOC was 100% illegal. Period.

    After firing off an inquisitive email to KPD, to the Chief, IIRC, I recieved the following response:


    I do not know who you talked to here (at certain times of day it may
    have not been a KPD employee), however, they were not properly informed.
    I apologize for the misinformation. Our officers have been properly
    informed. I agree with the information provided by the Michigan State
    Police. In summary, remember that it is legal to carry an unconcealed
    firearm in Michigan if:
    1. You are not prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
    2. You are not in a location where it may be prohibited;
    3. You are not under the influence of alcohol;
    4. You are not in an automobile;
    5. You are not committing another crime;
    6. You do not brandish the weapon or cause another person to reasonably
    be in fear.

    I can also tell you that any police officer observing the firearm may
    feel the need to observe you carefully for their own protection. I hope
    this has been helpful.

    BTW, I also talked with a lady running MSP's firearms info department, who was pretty knowledgeable and helpful, who backed up the above info, and said that she/they interpreted "brandishing" by the textbook definition of 'waving menacingly, etc' ...but could not provide any input on the issues of disturbing the peace, etc.



    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.


  2. #2
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.
    You are free to do what you want with your time of course, but I'm curious about why you areputting in so much effort to getLE opinion on open carry. Are you new and nervous about your local PD's handling of you if they approach you while you are OC'ing?
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  3. #3
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.
    Try calling the Warren Police Commissioner and see what you can do there for us.

  4. #4
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    6. You do not brandish the weapon or cause another person to reasonably be in fear.
    My exercise of RIGHTS are not subject to another person's EMOTIONAL REACTION.

    If you really want to pursue this, I would ask the KPD Chief to state the MCL that supports this. My bet is that he cannot as this would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL and would not stand in court.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  5. #5
    GP-P11
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    DanM wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.
    You are free to do what you want with your time of course, but I'm curious about why you areputting in so much effort to getLE opinion on open carry. Are you new and nervous about your local PD's handling of you if they approach you while you are OC'ing?
    in a word, yes.

    I cannot as of yet predict what may happen, especially involving PDs that I havent yet talked to... and I cannot afford to pay the fees that might result if I get arrested and charged with an offense, no matter how unreasonable that charge may be.

  6. #6
    GP-P11
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    6. You do not brandish the weapon or cause another person to reasonably be in fear.
    My exercise of RIGHTS are not subject to another person's EMOTIONAL REACTION.

    If you really want to pursue this, I would ask the KPD Chief to state the MCL that supports this. My bet is that he cannot as this would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL and would not stand in court.
    Im sure the key word is "reasonable", albeit a term open to interpretation... I suppose I'll have to ask about that...

    IIRC, even "assault" basically consists of little more than intentionally and/or knowingly making someone think that you intend to do them significant and immediate harm, and are able to do so. Last I heard, no actual attack or physical contact is required... only the perception/threat that you are about to attack. Although this is also subject to interpretation, as one is not responsible for another person's severe paranoia...

    Good point, though.. this does need to be clarified

  7. #7
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.
    You are free to do what you want with your time of course, but I'm curious about why you areĀ*putting in so much effort to getĀ*LE opinion on open carry.Ā* Are you new and nervous about your local PD's handling of you if they approach you while you are OC'ing?
    in a word, yes.

    I cannot as of yet predict what may happen, especially involving PDs that I havent yet talked to... and I cannot afford to pay the fees that might result if I get arrested and charged with an offense, no matter how unreasonable that charge may be.

    GP-P11: If your worried about law why would you speak to law enforcement about the legal aspects of carrying a pistol? A lawyer is an expert in the law. As you can easily see the board has many examples of how LE knows less about the law then the private citizens. If you want legal advice seek out lawyers who specialize in criminal law and weapons laws of Michigan. In my opinion you are wasting your time talking to LE people. Law enforcement is not looking out for YOUR interest and giving legal advice is definitely not part of there job.

  8. #8
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    Hi guys,

    I understand GP-P11's point. I think I have same questions about how the local PD views the practice of OC, even though it is legal. Hey worst thing to happen to any first timer is to get stopped. or worse.

    It would be personally reckless to not make an attemt in knowing how local PD handles it, before you go out on first OC outing around "town". Only due diligence to do so.

    Hey, the other thing about the response from the KPD was the part that someone other than PD employee can answer the phone and answer questions!

  9. #9
    GP-P11
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    mikestilly wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    DanM wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    I have some more calls/emails to make... I'll post anything of particular interest I hear.
    You are free to do what you want with your time of course, but I'm curious about why you areputting in so much effort to getLE opinion on open carry. Are you new and nervous about your local PD's handling of you if they approach you while you are OC'ing?
    in a word, yes.

    I cannot as of yet predict what may happen, especially involving PDs that I havent yet talked to... and I cannot afford to pay the fees that might result if I get arrested and charged with an offense, no matter how unreasonable that charge may be.

    GP-P11: If your worried about law why would you speak to law enforcement about the legal aspects of carrying a pistol? A lawyer is an expert in the law. As you can easily see the board has many examples of how LE knows less about the law then the private citizens. If you want legal advice seek out lawyers who specialize in criminal law and weapons laws of Michigan. In my opinion you are wasting your time talking to LE people. Law enforcement is not looking out for YOUR interest and giving legal advice is definitely not part of there job.
    True, the lawyers are the best authority when it comes down to arguing the law itself, but Id also like to hear what the PDs' and LEOs' views currently are, at least in general, to get a feel for what, if anything, they will do if they find me walking down the street with a loaded gun on my belt. A big part of making the decision to OC will come directly from LE opposition. If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass. If the local cops all know that what Im doing is allowed, and will not try to fight me on that, then maybe it's time to go for a walk with my 9mm buddy. I want to carry, but not if Im constantly fighting tooth and nail and risking major legal trouble with no defense funds and lawyers lined up


  10. #10
    GP-P11
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    Wglide90 wrote:

    Hey, the other thing about the response from the KPD was the part that someone other than PD employee can answer the phone and answer questions!
    yeah, i find that a little irresponsible on their part, especially when they dont make sure these people know what they're talking about

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    I'm curious about No. 4 in the enumerated points. Not in an automobile?

  12. #12
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    It should be not in an automobile unless you have a CPL....
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  13. #13
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    GP-P11 wrote: "If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass."

    That would probably be a good idea. Wait until the true Patriots have made it easy for you to exercise your U.S. and Michigan Constitutional rights. There's less risk for you that way that way.

    Another thing to consider is that the PD may tell you that it's your right. Yet when you attempt to exercise it you may get arrested any how.

    Here's an example of precisely that happening to this guy:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum43/30240-1.html

    In this incident the guy called the local PD to "ask permission" like you are. Then when he did OC he got arrested!

    Don't drive an automobile either. You may get hassled doing that too. And, it can get pretty expensive paying for tickets and the increased insurance resulting from them. And keep in mind that driving is a privilege and not a right.

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    autosurgeon wrote:
    It should be not in an automobile unless you have a CPL....
    It should not be accesable in an auotmobile unless you have a CPL. You canstill transport a firearm for lawful purpose if you don't have a CPL. Just don't tell any LEO's your agenda (where you are going to/coming from) if you are stopped.

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    Regular Member dougwg's Avatar
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    No reason to let them know you have a gun/guns stowed in your trunk either.

    Question: "Sir, you don't have any guns, drugs or dead bodies in the vehicle do you?"

    Answer: "............****.........." or "why did you pull me over?"

  16. #16
    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    PDinDetroit wrote:
    6. You do not brandish the weapon or cause another person to reasonably be in fear.
    My exercise of RIGHTS are not subject to another person's EMOTIONAL REACTION.

    If you really want to pursue this, I would ask the KPD Chief to state the MCL that supports this. My bet is that he cannot as this would be UNCONSTITUTIONAL and would not stand in court.
    You missed the key word in the statement. If you "brandish" your weapon in a manner that causes someone to REASONABLY be in fear, then it is illegal.

    Openly carrying your gun in a holster would not cause someone to REASONABLY be in fear. Any such fear of a holstered weapon would be decidely unreasonable.

    Waving your gun around, with your finger on the trigger, WOULD cause someone to REASONABLY be in fear.

  17. #17
    GP-P11
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    CV67PAT wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote: "If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass."

    That would probably be a good idea. Wait until the true Patriots have made it easy for you to exercise your U.S. and Michigan Constitutional rights. There's less risk for you that way that way.

    Another thing to consider is that the PD may tell you that it's your right. Yet when you attempt to exercise it you may get arrested any how.

    Here's an example of precisely that happening to this guy:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum43/30240-1.html

    In this incident the guy called the local PD to "ask permission" like you are. Then when he did OC he got arrested!

    Don't drive an automobile either. You may get hassled doing that too. And, it can get pretty expensive paying for tickets and the increased insurance resulting from them. And keep in mind that driving is a privilege and not a right.

    Well, my hat is off to the REAL patriots here, and I apologize for being a poser, I guess.

    I could probably think of plenty of rights to make a point of excercising whether anyone else likes it or not, but I do not have the means to defend in court everything I do each day, and would not like to find myself biting off more than I can chew and changing my address to something starting with "Cellblock E" for a while...

    I will gladly be a supporter for citizens' rights, but not a martyr, thank you.


  18. #18
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    Well, my hat is off to the REAL patriots here, and I apologize for being a poser, I guess.

    I could probably think of plenty of rights to make a point of excercising whether anyone else likes it or not, but I do not have the means to defend in court everything I do each day, and would not like to find myself biting off more than I can chew and changing my address to something starting with "Cellblock E" for a while...

    I will gladly be a supporter for citizens' rights, but not a martyr, thank you.
    GP-P11, please don't be discouraged from posting on the forum. You're not alone in your attempt to mount the rather large mental hurdles that arise when you are faced with possible opposition from the LE community. If you spend some more time here, you'll see that negative interactions with LE are fewer and further between than even 1 year ago.

    Yes, there is something seriously wrong in LE when law abiding citizens have to fear legal repercussions from engaging in lawful activity. It's a testament and a tribute to those on the site who have come before us who have educated the State, County, and Local LE agencies both with literature and in legal battles that makes it easier for the rest of us. Personally, I've yet to be hassled and I've even initiated LEO contact while OCing just to help get past the butterflies. Instead of dreading LE contact, try looking forward to it. I think you'll find that the officer will be more comfortable with YOU approaching peaceably rather than said officer having to investigate a MWAG call.

    Lastly, I would encourage you to attend one of the OC picnics. They are "safe" havens for those who want some support in their early OC adventures.


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    Regular Member Hendu024's Avatar
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    CV67PAT wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote: "If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass."

    That would probably be a good idea. Wait until the true Patriots have made it easy for you to exercise your U.S. and Michigan Constitutional rights. There's less risk for you that way that way.

    Another thing to consider is that the PD may tell you that it's your right. Yet when you attempt to exercise it you may get arrested any how.

    Here's an example of precisely that happening to this guy:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum43/30240-1.html

    In this incident the guy called the local PD to "ask permission" like you are. Then when he did OC he got arrested!

    Don't drive an automobile either. You may get hassled doing that too. And, it can get pretty expensive paying for tickets and the increased insurance resulting from them. And keep in mind that driving is a privilege and not a right.
    CV67PAT, you don't have to be a dick to get your point across.

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    GP-P11 wrote:
    Well, my hat is off to the REAL patriots here, and I apologize for being a poser, I guess. (Why would you think you are a poser? If you want to take precautions that is totally understandable, but they are right by saying to ask a lawyer not an LEO about the law. To cover your bases, you should send the police department you think you have a chance of encountering while OCing information on OC via email and ask for a response. This way you have proof that they were notified and made aware of the legalities if they try to crunch you up in court over a BS charge).

    I could probably think of plenty of rights to make a point of excercising whether anyone else likes it or not, but I do not have the means to defend in court everything I do each day, and would not like to find myself biting off more than I can chew and changing my address to something starting with "Cellblock E" for a while... (I think most of us are in your situation being that alot of us probably couldn't afford the cost of a lawyer. You can always choose to represent yourself because as long as you are abiding by ALL the rules/laws when you OC there are Supreme Court decisions that help people that OC during a court case).

    I will gladly be a supporter for citizens' rights, but not a martyr, thank you.
    (This is up to you. You could also help the movement by spreading the word through other websites, passing out pamphlets/cards, attending picnics/gatherings. Once again this is up to you, but remember that you are always welcome here).

  21. #21
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    GP-P11 wrote:
    I will gladly be a supporter for citizens' rights, but not a martyr, thank you.
    Don't worry, you're not the only one here.

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    GP-P11 wrote: "If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass."
    Don't let police or other "people of power" scare you! I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees!

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    Hendu024 wrote:
    CV67PAT wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote: "If I can expect to be hassled and arrested, I'll pass."

    That would probably be a good idea. Wait until the true Patriots have made it easy for you to exercise your U.S. and Michigan Constitutional rights. There's less risk for you that way that way.

    Another thing to consider is that the PD may tell you that it's your right. Yet when you attempt to exercise it you may get arrested any how.

    Here's an example of precisely that happening to this guy:
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum43/30240-1.html

    In this incident the guy called the local PD to "ask permission" like you are. Then when he did OC he got arrested!

    Don't drive an automobile either. You may get hassled doing that too. And, it can get pretty expensive paying for tickets and the increased insurance resulting from them. And keep in mind that driving is a privilege and not a right.
    CV67PAT, you don't have to be a dick to get your point across.
    +1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
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    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    GP-P11 wrote:
    Well, my hat is off to the REAL patriots here, and I apologize for being a poser, I guess. (Why would you think you are a poser? If you want to take precautions that is totally understandable, but they are right by saying to ask a lawyer not an LEO about the law. To cover your bases, you should send the police department you think you have a chance of encountering while OCing information on OC via email and ask for a response. This way you have proof that they were notified and made aware of the legalities if they try to crunch you up in court over a BS charge).

    I could probably think of plenty of rights to make a point of excercising whether anyone else likes it or not, but I do not have the means to defend in court everything I do each day, and would not like to find myself biting off more than I can chew and changing my address to something starting with "Cellblock E" for a while... (I think most of us are in your situation being that alot of us probably couldn't afford the cost of a lawyer. You can always choose to represent yourself because as long as you are abiding by ALL the rules/laws when you OC there are Supreme Court decisions that help people that OC during a court case).

    I will gladly be a supporter for citizens' rights, but not a martyr, thank you.
    (This is up to you. You could also help the movement by spreading the word through other websites, passing out pamphlets/cards, attending picnics/gatherings. Once again this is up to you, but remember that you are always welcome here).
    A very popular saying:

    The man who chooses to represent himself has a fool for a client.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  25. #25
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    Do you think O.J. would've gotten off if he had represented himself?

    Good legal defense/offense costs money.

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