View Poll Results: Which of these options do you support?

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  • A constitutional amendment reading"The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed."

    2 13.33%
  • Leave the constitution alone, repeal Florida Statute 790.053

    6 40.00%
  • Modify the current CCW to be a generic Firearms Permit where the holder could carry open or concealed as they wish.

    7 46.67%
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Thread: Florida Residents, Which do YOU Support?

  1. #1
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    This poll will be open for the next 15 days.
    Please also go see the thread titled "Who in FL wants to form a group to get OC moving on Florida".

    Thanks.

    Reb

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    I think it should be like Alaska and Vermont with no permit necessary for open or concealed carry. <rant on>GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES! <rantoff>

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    Eagle Eye wrote:
    I think it should be like Alaska and Vermont with no permit necessary for open or concealed carry. <rant on>GET THE GOVERNMENT OUT OF OUR LIVES! <rantoff>
    I agree with you Eagle Eye. However I also understand that for the past 124 years the state of Florida has regulated just HOW people in this state bear their arms. Change is needed definitely. But change is not easy to come by unless you just defraud the people and you are the one in power doing the defrauding. Otherwise, change comes slowly.

    So given the current state of where we are with the laws here in Florida, HOW do you propose we go about getting the government out of our lives and acheive the no permit necessary to carry open or concealed?

    I am very interested in hearing your answer and discussing this further.

    Reb

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    I know it's not just that "simple". It would take a long time to muster people to vote better people in and get the "professional politicians" out as well as educate more folks about better politicians. I don't have any single great idea. Educate folks about what is happening in government is the biggestI think. Use the Tea Parties and other protest avenues , visit local government meetings etc... We all need totake back the country from the "Big Government" by using whatever legal means necessary. Too simplistic but possibly effective. What say you??? By the way I don't care for the "two party system" we have right now. We need more than that!

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    Eagle Eye wrote:
    I know it's not just that "simple". It would take a long time to muster people to vote better people in and get the "professional politicians" out as well as educate more folks about better politicians. I don't have any single great idea. Educate folks about what is happening in government is the biggestI think. Use the Tea Parties and other protest avenues , visit local government meetings etc... We all need totake back the country from the "Big Government" by using whatever legal means necessary. Too simplistic but possibly effective. What say you??? By the way I don't care for the "two party system" we have right now. We need more than that!
    I get the impression, and please do excuse me if it is the incorrect impression, that the changes you seek are broad-brush and big picture in nature. Those types of changes take a very long time to gain momentum and move forward. I actually prefer to try to keep things as simple as possible. While I agree with you that people need to get educated and take action, I also believe that most people do not want to disrupt their daily lives enough to make the types of necessary changes that are required.

    My personal decision and efforts are to pick a single issue at a time and do my best to change that one thing. Hopefully if I am successful I will be able to change a handful of things in my lifetime yet.

    The one I am working on right now is the open carry issue here in Florida. I am also attending tea parties and doing other things to demonstrate to our current elected "leaders" my civil distaste for the direction they are taking my country in. But this issue is the one I am dedicating most of my free time to right now. Currently it is in the form of research and position policy creation. Soon it will be in directly changing the current law.

    As for the two party system we currently have? It is a joke. None of the elected reps in either party truly care about the opinions of the people not wish to serve the general populace as a whole. But this forum is not place for my general political beliefs.

    Reb
    American by birth, Southern by choice

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    I also am working the Tea Party issues with the current government. That's about all I have time for right now. I like the way you think though!

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    #3 is not possible without repealing 790.053.

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    brboyer wrote:
    #3 is not possible without repealing 790.053.
    Once again, it's things like this that will force me to really start digging into the Florida state statutes so I can converse intelligently about these details.

    I did select #3 as it appeared, at least on the surface, to be the easiest path but once you involve repealing 790.053, then it gets a lot more difficult.

    Thanks for the info and I'm off to the books to get up to speed on this.

    AD
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    brboyer wrote:
    #3 is not possible without repealing 790.053.
    Everyone has an opinion, and on this one Sir, I do disagree. There is no conceivable reason which the state legislature could not leave 790.053 intact and modify the CCW section of 790 to allow for option 3 which would simply mean you still do not have the right to carry either concealed or open without a state license.


    Reb
    American by birth, Southern by choice

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    rebel-patriot wrote:
    brboyer wrote:
    #3 is not possible without repealing 790.053.
    Everyone has an opinion, and on this one Sir, I do disagree. There is no conceivable reason which the state legislature could not leave 790.053 intact and modify the CCW section of 790 to allow for option 3 which would simply mean you still do not have the right to carry either concealed or open without a state license.


    Reb
    American by birth, Southern by choice
    You have the RIGHT... regardless of government contrivances (license and permit) to the contrary. You would retain the RIGHT if there were no government at all. Rid your head of the 'clutter'... The government has authority to recognize or deny a right. Not 'grant' a right. Rights are pre-existing. What part of 'Shall not be infringed' does your legislature not comprehend? The 2A'is' open carry... as is the traditional means of all persons bearing arms.


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    If nothing else, someday (after incorporation of the 2A via the 14A to be enforceable against the states), Florida's unconstitutional statute barring open carry of arms hopefully will be struck down. Meanwhile, I'm all for getting open carry by any other means available!

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    rebel-patriot wrote:
    brboyer wrote:
    #3 is not possible without repealing 790.053.
    Everyone has an opinion, and on this one Sir, I do disagree. There is no conceivable reason which the state legislature could not leave 790.053 intact and modify the CCW section of 790 to allow for option 3 which would simply mean you still do not have the right to carry either concealed or open without a state license.


    Reb
    American by birth, Southern by choice
    You are correct, I'm sorry, I forgot about this part...

    Except as otherwise provided by law and in subsection (2), it is unlawful for any person to openly carry on or about his or her person any firearm or electric weapon or device.

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    Hello everyone. I've been browsing the forums for some time now and finally had to register. This site provides a plethora of information for the open carry movement. All i can say is thanks Mike and John for the forum.

    For anyone who lives in Florida, you must know of the crime ridden areas like Jacksonville and Miami-Dade. I think unlicensed open carry would only make matters worse in these areas. Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly feel that if one wants to openly carry, they should without restriction, barring violent felons and others physically and mentally incapable of that responsibility. Having a carry permit is the best way to avoid these few individuals that desire to carry, but shouldnt.

    My major concern is if we are going to move as a group to get open carry reissued (was statutorily legal from 1893 up until 1987... see session law Ch. 4146 (1893) and Ch. 87-537), how do we get past this issue? Licensed or unlicensed?

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    Tucky wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've been browsing the forums for some time now and finally had to register. This site provides a plethora of information for the open carry movement. All i can say is thanks Mike and John for the forum.

    For anyone who lives in Florida, you must know of the crime ridden areas like Jacksonville and Miami-Dade. I think unlicensed open carry would only make matters worse in these areas. Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly feel that if one wants to openly carry, they should without restriction, barring violent felons and others physically and mentally incapable of that responsibility. Having a carry permit is the best way to avoid these few individuals that desire to carry, but shouldnt.

    My major concern is if we are going to move as a group to get open carry reissued (was statutorily legal from 1893 up until 1987... see session law Ch. 4146 (1893) and Ch. 87-537), how do we get past this issue? Licensed or unlicensed?
    Tucky,

    Hello and welcome to the forum. Yes I can quite agree this forum and website offer a lot of information. Not only on Open Carry but a lot of other issues all relating to firearms, RKBA etc.

    I would be interested to understand and hear more regarding your opinion that open carry would make higher crime areas worse. I think if you investigate the issue closely you will find almost empirical data showing the contrary.

    Regarding keeping felons and mentally incapable individuals from open carrying, just how do these people purchase guns today? Felons are not going to care what the law is no matter what. That is why they are felons. However the addage of out of sight, out of mind comes to play here. The felons today do not see people carrying in general. If they did, IMO, they would go look for an easier mark somewhere else.

    Reb
    American by birth, Southern by choice.


  15. #15
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    Tucky wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've been browsing the forums for some time now and finally had to register. This site provides a plethora of information for the open carry movement. All i can say is thanks Mike and John for the forum.

    For anyone who lives in Florida, you must know of the crime ridden areas like Jacksonville and Miami-Dade. I think unlicensed open carry would only make matters worse in these areas. Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly feel that if one wants to openly carry, they should without restriction, barring violent felons and others physically and mentally incapable of that responsibility. Having a carry permit is the best way to avoid these few individuals that desire to carry, but shouldnt.

    My major concern is if we are going to move as a group to get open carry reissued (was statutorily legal from 1893 up until 1987... see session law Ch. 4146 (1893) and Ch. 87-537), how do we get past this issue? Licensed or unlicensed?
    'Sorry... you've been brainwashed. 'Not your fault... just inculcated with anti's propaganda so long ya can't think straight. You're not alone. 'Permit/License' is a government contrivance of 'control'. Such stuff is directly opposite of 'Shall not be infringed'. The free exercise of a right... any right, does not depend on government permission. Government has authority... but government (as a body) has no rights. Only people have rights. Such rights would exist if there were no government at all.

    Arizona, among others... has no such restrictions on the right to bear arms openlyin it's history. Criminals (in recent history) do not bear arms openly. They will carry arms regardless of any laws to the contrary. That includes those prohibited by 18 USC Gun Control Act of 1969. They are CRIMINALS! Laws only apply to criminals when they're caught and enforced punitively.

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    bear with me, i'm new with the functions of the board


    rebel-patriot wrote:
    I would be interested to understand and hear more regarding your opinion that open carry would make higher crime areas worse. I think if you investigate the issue closely you will find almost empirical data showing the contrary.

    Regarding keeping felons and mentally incapable individuals from open carrying, just how do these people purchase guns today? Felons are not going to care what the law is no matter what. That is why they are felons. However the addage of out of sight, out of mind comes to play here. The felons today do not see people carrying in general. If they did, IMO, they would go look for an easier mark somewhere else.
    I'm willing to bet that we all can agree that the responsible open carry will deter crime and make them look elsewhere.

    When I made my comments, I had in my mind of some gangbangers and overly prideful individuals openly carrying their firearms. Legally speaking, if ULOC is on the books, any violent criminal, as well as law abiding citizen can openly carry a firearm if they are over 18. How could law enforcement distinguish between the two? Only if there is RAS could a LEO detain the individual for investigation (as it should be). Theoretically, there could be thugs with firearms and immunity from search.


    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Tucky wrote:
    Hello everyone. I've been browsing the forums for some time now and finally had to register. This site provides a plethora of information for the open carry movement. All i can say is thanks Mike and John for the forum.

    For anyone who lives in Florida, you must know of the crime ridden areas like Jacksonville and Miami-Dade. I think unlicensed open carry would only make matters worse in these areas. Don't get me wrong, I whole-heartedly feel that if one wants to openly carry, they should without restriction, barring violent felons and others physically and mentally incapable of that responsibility. Having a carry permit is the best way to avoid these few individuals that desire to carry, but shouldnt.

    My major concern is if we are going to move as a group to get open carry reissued (was statutorily legal from 1893 up until 1987... see session law Ch. 4146 (1893) and Ch. 87-537), how do we get past this issue? Licensed or unlicensed?
    'Sorry... you've been brainwashed. 'Not your fault... just inculcated with anti's propaganda so long ya can't think straight. You're not alone. 'Permit/License' is a government contrivance of 'control'. Such stuff is directly opposite of 'Shall not be infringed'. The free exercise of a right... any right, does not depend on government permission. Government has authority... but government (as a body) has no rights. Only people have rights. Such rights would exist if there were no government at all.

    Arizona, among others... has no such restrictions on the right to bear arms openlyin it's history. Criminals (in recent history) do not bear arms openly. They will carry arms regardless of any laws to the contrary. That includes those prohibited by 18 USC Gun Control Act of 1969. They are CRIMINALS! Laws only apply to criminals when they're caught and enforced punitively.
    Sonora,
    See my response to rebel above. Yes, I may be brainwashed, but the logic makes complete sense to me.

    ULOC would be a great accomplishment for the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, but it isnt practical for those who have shown their irresponsibility/immaturity and have had the State take that Right away. Again, that is my opinion. Perhaps nobody should have rights taken away by a governmental authority.

  17. #17
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    Tucky wrote:
    bear with me, i'm new with the functions of the board


    I'm willing to bet that we all can agree that the responsible open carry will deter crime and make them look elsewhere.

    When I made my comments, I had in my mind of some gangbangers and overly prideful individuals openly carrying their firearms. Legally speaking, if ULOC is on the books, any violent criminal, as well as law abiding citizen can openly carry a firearm if they are over 18. How could law enforcement distinguish between the two? Only if there is RAS could a LEO detain the individual for investigation (as it should be). Theoretically, there could be thugs with firearms and immunity from search.

    Sonora,
    See my response to rebel above. Yes, I may be brainwashed, but the logic makes complete sense to me.

    ULOC would be a great accomplishment for the RIGHT to keep and bear arms, but it isnt practical for those who have shown their irresponsibility/immaturity and have had the State take that Right away. Again, that is my opinion. Perhaps nobody should have rights taken away by a governmental authority.
    No... clear your mind of all the statist clutter. Thiose who bear arms irresponsibly or unlawfully will be dealt with swiftly. You're already expecting LEO harrassment. BG's don't 'open carry'. CCW permit holders 'n BG's can't be readily distinguished for other than behavior and a piece of government paper. 'Overly prideful? For what? Open carry? You remind me of those news weenie dorks in PA describing OC'r's as 'strutting'. You sound like an anti. "ULOC would be a great accomplishment for the RIGHT to keep and bear arms." What is ULOC? Unloaded Open Carry? What good is that? Get out of California... Jeez! No... the RIGHT to bear arms is just that. Bearing arms. ULOC is accomplishing nothing but furthering control of the state over a Right. RIGHTS require... NOTHING but exercising them responsibly.

    How does this work? You get up... get dressed, put your gunbelt or holsteron 'n go out the door 'n about your business unimpeded. That's it. That's the free exercise ofthe Right to bear arms.

    'those who have shown their irresponsibility/immaturity and have had the State take that Right away." Done deal... USC 18 Gun Control Act of 1969. Do you actually own a firearm? 'Bought any requiring an ATF Form 4473? 'Read it?



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    Thiose who bear arms irresponsibly or unlawfully will be dealt with swiftly.
    How? Naturally, manually branshing the weapon or acting like a tool with it will get you "dealt with". How about the violent felon who is openly carrying? Yes, chances are they would not. But hypothetically, lets say we get open carry and we get to a point where LE does not think twice about a man with a side arm (that would be great, btw). how will he/she be dealt with swiftly? if there is an incident, then he/she will be charged with unlawful possession by a felon, assuming there is police attention. Point being, do you want this person walking along side you?

    You're already expecting LEO harrassment.
    It will happen, without a doubt. As with the other states, it will subside over time.

    Overly prideful? For what? Open carry? You remind me of those news weenie dorks in PA describing OC'r's as 'strutting'. You sound like an anti.
    I was referring to certain types of people who cannot get past their pride and it ruins them. These people fight when they are embarrased, corrected, etc. I did not intend to associate it with those who open carry, but those who are immature.

    "ULOC would be a great accomplishment for the RIGHT to keep and bear arms." What is ULOC? Unloaded Open Carry? What good is that? Get out of California... Jeez! No... the RIGHT to bear arms is just that. Bearing arms. ULOC is accomplishing nothing but furthering control of the state over a Right.
    ULOC = unlicenced open carry, UOC = unloaded open carry... we need new acronyms, lol. I completely agree, Unloaded Open Carry has accomplished nothing, but furthering controls of the state.


    'those who have shown their irresponsibility/immaturity and have had the State take that Right away." Done deal... USC 18 Gun Control Act of 1969. Do you actually own a firearm? 'Bought any requiring an ATF Form 4473? 'Read it?
    Yes, I have, for all but one of my firearms. It is a done deal, if the individual in question purchases a firearms from an FFL, which no BG's do. Yes, you are correct in that no BG's will open carry...at first. What happens when LEO's become complacent with OC? I do not really like to argue, so I'll finish and let you have the last word. UnLicensed Open Carry would be a fantastic achievement. Unrestricted 2A. People generally work over every system to reap benefits. Perhaps I'm just a pessimist. Perhaps I should just get off this topic and wait until OC is legalized again and see if this complacency actually happens. Hey, maybe you're right.

    Regards,
    Tucky

  19. #19
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Arms have been carried openly in Arizona and New Mexico two hundred years before statehood. Arizona has been a state since 1912. Bad guys DO NOT open carry... anywhere. Most don't even have/use holsters. It's easier to toss the piece than fiddle with getting a holster off your belt. Those types would be prohibited persons anyway... they don't want that kind'a 'stuff' on 'em. OC... by the Law of the Land is 'legal'... It's not that they're 'illegal'... it's just that the state has denied the right. Big difference. Yeah... the state is 'illegal'... Fix it! (I grew up in North & Central FL.)

    Armed felons walk beside you now... you just don't know which is armed.

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    Yes Tucky,to answer your question with absolute certainty, look at Arizona, you can open carry handguns (and longarms) 365 days of the year with near complete confidence of no LEO hassle. So the percentage of violent felons who choose to open carry in Arizona? Zero.

    It is time for Florida to join the other 44 states that allow open carry!

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    Hi folks!

    As a note - I was in the process of what turned out to be a fairly lengthy response last night when the electric went out! OUCH! But all is well this morning so before I have to get ready and go to work I thought I would come back and try to summarize my thoughts.

    First let me start out that the poll above is to get a feel for where peoples thoughts are at. I am dedicating a good chunk of my free time when not working, getting ready for work etc.. to the issue of OC in Florida and am just getting things going here.

    I agree that Florida needs to get rid of the ban on OC.. the real question is how to get that done. That is the part of "getting things off the ground" that is going to take the most time. Now lets introduce some reality into the situation.

    Florida has for all intents and purposes been denying people their 2A rights in some fashion for the past 124 years. So it is entrenched. That simply means that the battle for restoration is going to be more difficult and time consuming.

    Currently in the USA there are 42 states that allow Open Carry. (84%)
    26 of those states require a license to OC. (52% of the total states, roughly 62% of those favoring OC)
    7 states ban OC. (Florida is one of those)(14% of total states)
    California allows only in rural area. (2% of total states)

    There are many considerations that need to be taken into account here to develop a successful plan of attack. The last count I saw was that Florida had issued somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5 million CC permits.

    Since the state IS entrenched, I believe we are looking at a multi stage battle for the full restoration of 2A rights. Given that most people are too busy to become active and push for causes they believe in, that adds to any timeframe. Opinions need to be formed, arguments need to be made to move people one way or another. It is a long process.
    So.. IMO and worth every penny you are paying for it.. this is how I see it going.

    1. Enforcement of rights currently on the books.
    Florida law allows OC in certain circumstances. Those circumstances can be found in Florida statute 790.25 subsection h which reads " A person engaged in fishing, camping, or lawful hunting or going to or returning from a fishing, camping, or lawful hunting expedition"

    Florida also passed hr1029 in 2006 which compelled the state parks system to bring their regulations in line with ALL applicable florida state laws.

    I have recently discovered that Florida State Parks still officially (in their regulations and on their website) deny firearms in the parks.

    I am currently contacting a series of state parks individually to get the rangers take on it, collecting names of who I talk to etc. I am then contacting the division office in Tallahassee and discussing there as well. Then I am writing the department, the state attorney general as well as my representatives asking for the immediate compliance with state law. I will keep the community posted in another thread on this subject.
    2. Move Florida to a green state status.
    While I fully intend to strive for gold star status and get Florida to a full restoration of 2A rights, I am also pragmatic and realistic. I believe this is where Florida will end up in the immediate future. Only after people are actively open carrying for a number of years and the fear of it is subsided will a push to change the Florida Constitution be successful.

    The data above, which was gleaned from this website and other sources, shows the licensed open carry is the most popular form in the USA. I AGREE that this still sets it into the privilige category and not the rights category, as I said before I am pragmatic and realistic. I view this as a win and a step towards the full goal.

    I see stage 2 as taking a minimum of 2 years to get passed, and probably another 2-3 years before the next stage will be practical.
    3. Move Florida to Gold star status and full restoration of 2A rights.
    This will require a constitutional amendment. As of today, a petition for a constitutional amendment will require 67,000 signers of registered Florida voters. Those need to be verified at 10 cents per verification. The proposed amendment needs to pass by the Supreme Court of Florida for language testing to make sure it would in fact be legal and constitutional. Only then does it get on the ballot for general voting. The state gives you 4 years after registering to get through the entire process.

    This will take massive organization, work, and planning not to even mention money to make it happen. Again, IMO, building a grassroots organization and moving along in stages building towards this end goal is the best way to go.
    Simply removing Florida Statute 790.053 doesnt accomplish the same goal as it will still allow Florida Legislature the option of enacting other laws in the future, in essence not restoring rights but providing for future priviliges. For full restoration of 2A rights the state constitution needs to have the "as allowed by law" section removed from it.
    I know there are those that will agree with me, and those that will disagree with me. I am always willing to openly discuss my views and the views of others and fully reserve any and all rights to change my opinions as I see fit. LOL. But I think the course I have just stated is the most likely path to full victory at this time.

    I ask if you are a Florida resident, to join me Tuesday Septermber 22 at 8 pm in the OpenCarry irc chatroom If you do not know what I am talking about see this thread
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum3/3580.html

    I will be posting this officially in the next day or so in a seperate thread. This will be a moderated meeting.

    Rebel
    American by birth, Southern by choice



  22. #22
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Don't settle for crumbs. You'll have to repeat the process 'n that won't happen again in your lifetime.Demand the biggest bite... OC per the 2A as intended.

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be impaired." There's your Constitutional wording

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    Hi folks!

    Well this poll has been up for a little over a week now. I was honestly hoping for more of a turnout on it.
    The results of the poll as of right now are a total of 15 votes as follow.
    Item 1 - 2 votes - 13.33%
    Item 2 - 6 votes - 40%
    Item 3 - 7 votes - 46.67%

    I stated my personal views in a previous post in this thread as to how I believe it will end up going as far as any movement towards OC in Florida. While this is not any kind of a policy statement or anything other than my belief, I can also see another possible outcome.

    If Item 2 is worked on and 790.053 is repealed, constant effort and vigilance is necessary both to ensure that future legislation is not enacted to re-limit or further limit the right to OC as well as Item 1 would need to be kicked off within a year of passage of any repeal of 790.053. A long struggle.

    I was hoping for a larger sampling with this poll. This poll will close on Thursday 9/24. So if you are interested please let others know of this poll so it will become actually useful in the larger effort.

    Sonora, while I sincerely respect your position, I disagree with it as a first effort. I am trying to plot a course of victory to an end goal and I do not think a "hail mary pass" will reach the goal line without causing a massive fracture of the electorate. It was such a massive fracture that got us into this situation here in Florida where OC was specifically banned in 1987. The fracturing of opinions within the gun rights community over concealed carry fueled by brady bunch activists pushed the Florida Legislature to banning OC, and into licensed CC.

    Hope to hear from all of you soon.

    Rebel
    American by birth, Southern by choice

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