Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Another "No Firearms" sign!

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    100

    Post imported post

    Here is a photo of a sign on my 5 year old's school (Crescent Elem School). It makes it appear that no one can have a Firearm with them on the school property. I have a CFP and I am a Certified Concealed Carry Firearm Instructor, so this sign has no vaule for me, but it is mis-leading. I know the law which allows CFP holders to carry a firearm in any public school in Utah.

    (not in the photo) it states "in accordance with all State and local Laws" I guess that is to cover the exception of CFP holders.

  2. #2
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Yeah, well that sign needs to be taken down.

    Talk to the administrators at the school.

  3. #3
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    223

    Post imported post

    thx997303 wrote:
    Yeah, well that sign needs to be taken down.

    Talk to the administrators at the school.
    Maybe even talk to the School District. They probably have them on all their schools.

  4. #4
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    We really need a much larger scale move to take care of these errant violations of state pre-emption law.

    Our current course of action works, but very slowly, and our efforts tend to become centralized to certain areas because our membership is few.

    Let's think on how to speed up the process. In the meantime, keep your eyes peeled and fire off letters when needed.

    Keep up the fire.

  5. #5
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Tucson, Arizona, USA
    Posts
    1,098

    Post imported post

    Is it a Private or Public school? There would be a difference there.

  6. #6
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    580

    Post imported post

    PavePusher wrote:
    Is it a Private or Public school? There would be a difference there.
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  7. #7
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Is it a Private or Public school? There would be a difference there.
    Not really.
    The difference is that since Crescent is a public school, their "rule" is unenforceable, and the sign is unlawful per Utah Code 53-5a-102.

    If Crescent were a private school, the sign would not be unlawful, and they could make any rule they want that pertains to firearms.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #8
    Regular Member LovesHisXD45's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    580

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Is it a Private or Public school? There would be a difference there.
    Not really.
    The difference is that since Crescent is a public school, their "rule" is unenforceable, and the sign is unlawful per Utah Code 53-5a-102.

    If Crescent were a private school, the sign would not be unlawful, and they could make any rule they want that pertains to firearms.
    If it isn't broke, then don't fix it, or you'll fix it until it's broke.

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    317

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    LovesHisXD45 wrote:
    PavePusher wrote:
    Is it a Private or Public school? There would be a difference there.
    Not really.
    The difference is that since Crescent is a public school, their "rule" is unenforceable, and the sign is unlawful per Utah Code 53-5a-102.
    Sounds like SGT and I need to make an OC stop at that school! :shock:
    In a couple of weeks of course.
    "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."
    Thomas Jefferson

  10. #10
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Midvale, Utah, USA
    Posts
    7

    Post imported post

    Are you really going to OC at that public school? Won't you get in trouble with the FGFSZA? Or is it true that it is unenforcable?

  11. #11
    Centurion
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Pleasant Grove, Utah, USA
    Posts
    3,828

    Post imported post

    tbeenysw wrote:
    Are you really going to OC at that public school? Won't you get in trouble with the FGFSZA? Or is it true that it is unenforcable?
    No problem with open carry at ANY public school in the State of Utah AS LONG AS YOU HAVE BEEN ISSUED A PERMIT ALLOWING YOU TO CONCEAL BY THE STATE OF UTAH!

    That being said, some of the schools need to be reminded of that, at times.

    And if my schedule permits, I am willing to go with Sgt Jensen and Packingmama when they do this!
    RIGHTS don't exist without RESPONSIBILITY!
    If one is not willing to stand for his rights, he doesn't have any Rights.
    I will strive to stand for the rights of ANY person, even those folks with whom I disagree!
    As said by SVG--- "I am not anti-COP, I am PRO-Citizen" and I'll add, PRO-Constitution.
    If the above makes me a RADICAL or EXTREME--- So be it!

    Life Member NRA
    Life Member GOA
    2nd amendment says.... "...The right of the people to keep and bear arms SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"

  12. #12
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    tbeenysw wrote:
    Are you really going to OC at that public school? Won't you get in trouble with the FGFSZA? Or is it true that it is unenforcable?
    No, we have no plans to carry there, nor do we have any business at Crescent Elementary.

    However, since my wife and I have concealed firearm permits, carrying in any Utah public schoolwould not be a problem.

    The Federal Gun Free School Zone Act applies to K-12 schools only, and there is an exemption if you are licensed by the State the school is in.

    Utah law covers all schools, but permit holders from any State are exempt.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  13. #13
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Ogden, UT, ,
    Posts
    258

    Post imported post

    just write in marker "Illegal" next to Firearms

    The ogden river walk has a no firearms sign, I just ignore it, I'll take a picture of it over the next few days

  14. #14
    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ogden, UT, ,
    Posts
    313

    Post imported post

    usSiR wrote:
    just write in marker "Illegal" next to Firearms

    The ogden river walk has a no firearms sign, I just ignore it, I'll take a picture of it over the next few days
    The river walk at the Big Dee Sports Park? The one that follows the river west under Harrison, Monroe, etc? I've never noticed it, I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm in Ogden as well.

  15. #15
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Ogden, UT, ,
    Posts
    258

    Post imported post

    UtahJarhead wrote:
    usSiR wrote:
    just write in marker "Illegal" next to Firearms

    The ogden river walk has a no firearms sign, I just ignore it, I'll take a picture of it over the next few days
    The river walk at the Big Dee Sports Park? The one that follows the river west under Harrison, Monroe, etc? I've never noticed it, I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm in Ogden as well.
    yeah devil dog....

    take a good look at them, I notice it at Washington most of the time you have to walk right past the sign

    Semper Fi

  16. #16
    Regular Member UtahJarhead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ogden, UT, ,
    Posts
    313

    Post imported post

    I'm going to have to check that out. If it's saying no firearms AT ALL, then that being public property, it's illegal signage, no?

  17. #17
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    223

    Post imported post

    UtahJarhead wrote:
    I'm going to have to check that out. If it's saying no firearms AT ALL, then that being public property, it's illegal signage, no?
    Yes, that is correct.

  18. #18
    Regular Member thx997303's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Lehi, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,716

    Post imported post

    Speaking of illegal signage, I wonder has anyone been to wheeler historic farm lately?

  19. #19
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    SLC, Utah, USA
    Posts
    223

    Post imported post

    I was there about 2 months ago, and the signs were still there. Not very recent, I know. Next time I'm there I'll check it out.

  20. #20
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    St. George, Utah, USA
    Posts
    11

    Post imported post

    Looking at the sign at the school....

    Do they teach proper punctuation....at
    Crescent Elem. School???



    Looks like your Firearm is OK as long as it Is "not Smoking"

    "Would you like to buy a comma"--Vanna White

  21. #21
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    7

    Post imported post

    Bennelli wrote:
    Here is a photo of a sign on my 5 year old's school (Crescent Elem School). It makes it appear that no one can have a Firearm with them on the school property. I have a CFP and I am a Certified Concealed Carry Firearm Instructor, so this sign has no vaule for me, but it is mis-leading. I know the law which allows CFP holders to carry a firearm in any public school in Utah.

    (not in the photo) it states "in accordance with all State and local Laws" I guess that is to cover the exception of CFP holders.
    I understand there is a law that specifically prevents firearms from being carried on school grounds, so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this. Luckily, us concealed firearm permit holders are exempt from that particluar law. :P

  22. #22
    State Researcher Kevin Jensen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Santaquin, Utah, USA
    Posts
    2,313

    Post imported post

    Doctor Jenks wrote:
    so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this.

    They are violating Utah law by posting this. State Entities may not regulate firearms.


    53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
    (1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
    (2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
    (a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
    (b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
    (3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
    (4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
    (5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
    (b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
    (7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.
    "An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life." Robert A. Heinlein

  23. #23
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    , Utah, USA
    Posts
    7

    Post imported post

    SGT Jensen wrote:
    Doctor Jenks wrote:
    so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this.

    They are violating Utah law by posting this. State Entities may not regulate firearms.





    With respect, I do not think they are regulating firearms, only posting an existing state law. This law does not require them to post any sign, but they have. I think it is rather decent of them to let people who might not otherwiseknow thatit is a violation. Again, this law also states who is exempt from this law; this includes concealed firearm permit holders.

    The sign, of course, would be more accurate if they added "in accordance with Utah law 76-10-505.5", but lets not get too picky, shall we?

    Edit: In retrospect, I think it would be better if they added that last part about "in accordance with Utah law". I have to admit that I realized I would be more upset about a sign at say, Salt Lake Community College. The fact this was a elementary school and was on a sign I think was at least in part meant for the children attending the school made me think it was not such a big deal. I still think I brought up a good point. Shouldn't it be posted somewhere that without a CFP it is still illegal to carry firearms on school grounds?


    76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
    (1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
    (2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
    (b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
    (3) This section does not apply if:
    (a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
    (b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
    (c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
    (d) the possession is:
    (i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
    (ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
    (iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
    (4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

  24. #24
    State Researcher
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    4,795

    Post imported post

    I think the most accurate and succinct way to post a sign about the GFSZ would be along the lines of,

    "Gun Free School Zone. Firearms prohibited unless otherwise authorized."

    That would cover the authorization from a CCW permit, the authorization from a school official giving permission, the authorization from the gun being used in a school sanctioned activity, and so on.

    Of course, posting the sign on the doors of the building are not really very useful as the GFSZ extends out 1000' from the property line of the school campus.

    We need to repeal the whole stupid law. Get the trouble making kids out of school and guns won't be a problem. It has only been a couple of decades since I graduated high school and it was common for kids to have guns in their trucks. Most men and boys carried a knife of some kind as a matter of course. We NEVER had a weapons issue.

    Those a bit older than I remember when high schools in Utah made use of their indoor shooting ranges rather than using them for storage.

    It isn't the guns.

    Charles
    All experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. Thank heaven we do not permit a few to impose anarchy.

    "With Anarchy as an aim and as a means, Communism becomes possible."
    --Marxist.org

    "Communism and Anarchy [are], a necessary complement to one another. "
    --PETER KROPOTKIN, "Anarchism: its philosophy and ideal." 1898.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •