Another "No Firearms" sign!

imported post

Bennelli wrote:

Here is a photo of a sign on my 5 year old's school (Crescent Elem School). It makes it appear that no one can have a Firearm with them on the school property. I have a CFP and I am a Certified Concealed Carry Firearm Instructor, so this sign has no vaule for me, but it is mis-leading. I know the law which allows CFP holders to carry a firearm in any public school in Utah.

(not in the photo) it states "in accordance with all State and local Laws" I guess that is to cover the exception of CFP holders.

Click to expand...

I understand there is a law that specifically prevents firearms from being carried on school grounds, so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this. Luckily, us concealed firearm permit holders are exempt from that particluar law.

imported post

Doctor Jenks wrote:

so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this.

Click to expand...

They are violating Utah law by posting this. State Entities may not regulate firearms.

53-5a-102. Uniform firearm laws.
(1) The individual right to keep and bear arms being a constitutionally protected right under Article I, Section 6 of the Utah Constitution, the Legislature finds the need to provide uniform civil and criminal firearm laws throughout the state.
(2) Except as specifically provided by state law, a local authority or state entity may not:
(a) prohibit an individual from owning, possessing, purchasing, selling, transferring, transporting, or keeping a firearm at the individual's place of residence, property, business, or in any vehicle lawfully in the individual's possession or lawfully under the individual's control; or
(b) require an individual to have a permit or license to purchase, own, possess, transport, or keep a firearm.
(3) In conjunction with Title 76, Chapter 10, Part 5, Weapons, this section is uniformly applicable throughout this state and in all its political subdivisions and municipalities.
(4) All authority to regulate firearms is reserved to the state except where the Legislature specifically delegates responsibility to local authorities or state entities.
(5) Unless specifically authorized by the Legislature by statute, a local authority or state entity may not enact, establish, or enforce any ordinance, regulation, rule, or policy pertaining to firearms that in any way inhibits or restricts the possession or use of firearms on either public or private property.
(6) As used in this section:
(a) "firearm" has the same meaning as defined in Subsection 76-10-501(9); and
(b) "local authority or state entity" includes public school districts, public schools, and state institutions of higher education.
(7) Nothing in this section restricts or expands private property rights.

imported post

SGT Jensen wrote:

Doctor Jenks wrote:

so I don't believe they are entirely incorrect by posting this.

Click to expand...

They are violating Utah law by posting this. State Entities may not regulate firearms.

Click to expand...

With respect, I do not think they are regulating firearms, only posting an existing state law. This law does not require them to post any sign, but they have. I think it is rather decent of them to let people who might not otherwiseknow thatit is a violation. Again, this law also states who is exempt from this law; this includes concealed firearm permit holders.

The sign, of course, would be more accurate if they added "in accordance with Utah law 76-10-505.5", but lets not get too picky, shall we?

Edit: In retrospect, I think it would be better if they added that last part about "in accordance with Utah law". I have to admit that I realized I would be more upset about a sign at say, Salt Lake Community College. The fact this was a elementary school and was on a sign I think was at least in part meant for the children attending the school made me think it was not such a big deal. I still think I brought up a good point. Shouldn't it be posted somewhere that without a CFP it is still illegal to carry firearms on school grounds?


76-10-505.5. Possession of a dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises -- Penalties.
(1) A person may not possess any dangerous weapon, firearm, or sawed-off shotgun, as those terms are defined in Section 76-10-501, at a place that the person knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is on or about school premises as defined in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1).
(2) (a) Possession of a dangerous weapon on or about school premises is a class B misdemeanor.
(b) Possession of a firearm or sawed-off shotgun on or about school premises is a class A misdemeanor.
(3) This section does not apply if:
(a) the person is authorized to possess a firearm as provided under Section 53-5-704, 53-5-705, 76-10-511, or 76-10-523, or as otherwise authorized by law;
(b) the possession is approved by the responsible school administrator;
(c) the item is present or to be used in connection with a lawful, approved activity and is in the possession or under the control of the person responsible for its possession or use; or
(d) the possession is:
(i) at the person's place of residence or on the person's property;
(ii) in any vehicle lawfully under the person's control, other than a vehicle owned by the school or used by the school to transport students; or
(iii) at the person's place of business which is not located in the areas described in Subsection 76-3-203.2(1)(a)(i), (ii), or (iv).
(4) This section does not prohibit prosecution of a more serious weapons offense that may occur on or about school premises.

imported post

I think the most accurate and succinct way to post a sign about the GFSZ would be along the lines of,

"Gun Free School Zone. Firearms prohibited unless otherwise authorized."

That would cover the authorization from a CCW permit, the authorization from a school official giving permission, the authorization from the gun being used in a school sanctioned activity, and so on.

Of course, posting the sign on the doors of the building are not really very useful as the GFSZ extends out 1000' from the property line of the school campus.

We need to repeal the whole stupid law. Get the trouble making kids out of school and guns won't be a problem. It has only been a couple of decades since I graduated high school and it was common for kids to have guns in their trucks. Most men and boys carried a knife of some kind as a matter of course. We NEVER had a weapons issue.

Those a bit older than I remember when high schools in Utah made use of their indoor shooting ranges rather than using them for storage.

It isn't the guns.

Charles