Results 1 to 12 of 12

Thread: Voice Recorder use

  1. #1
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Manistee, , USA
    Posts
    2

    Post imported post

    I ran across an interesting article that I wanted to pass along. It is from a Yahoo story about the present-day use of audio recorders, and mentions Michigan as a state where you need permission of all parties to use a recorder.

    http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/150820

    [line]
    Digital audio recorder in pocket earns man wiretapping charges Thu Sep 10, 2009 2:36PM EDT
    See Comments (0)
    Buzz up!80 votes YAHOO.util.Event.addListener( window, "load", function() { setTimeout(function(){ var buzz = new YAHOO.Media.Buzz("buzz-top",{"sync":"buzz-top","countPosition":"after","loc_strings":{"buzz_ up":"Buzz up!","buzzed":"Buzzed!","one_vote":"{0} vote","n_votes":"{0} votes"}}); }, 15); }); Got a digital voice recorder like one of these? Watch out how you use it or you could land yourself in scorching legal trouble. One man recently found that out the hard way, after he was arrested and discovered to be recording the goings-on with just such a device in his pocket. Not only is he now facing charges for disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, and trespassing, he's also charged with unlawful wiretapping and possessing a device for wiretapping.
    The story goes that one Chi Quang Truong was embroiled in a dispute with a Massachusetts auto service center, which didn't repair his car as quickly as Truong wanted. Truong got into a verbal scuffle with the service shop and the police were called. Apparently Truong was recording all of this -- for reasons unknown -- using a device stowed in his pocket, and cops added the wiretapping charges to his rap sheet during his arrest.
    But wait a second: Don't you need a wire to get charged with wiretapping? I thought so too, and the theory here is that since Truong didn't have explicit permission to record the conversation (memories of Linda Tripp), he was slapped with the additional charges. In 12 states (California, Connecticut, Florida, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Montana, Nevada, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and Washington) you're required to get the permission of all parties on the line before making any kind of recording. In the rest of the country, any single member that's part of the conversation can legally record it without consent from the other parties. And as Network World notes, wiretapping laws largely extend to in-person communications now, so no wire is required.
    Still, does the punishment really fit the crime? Wiretapping is a class D felony, and that can mean (based on my admittedly limited understanding of criminal statutes) up to 12 years in prison. While Truong is unlikely to face anything that severe (and, in all probability, will have the wiretapping charges dropped as his prosecution progresses), he probably shouldn't be facing charges for any of this. And "possession of a wiretapping device"? Yikes. Even my iPhone has a voice recorder feature built in. I'm in possession of such a device any time I step out in public.
    Check your own pockets, briefcase, purse, or backpack: You might be a criminal!
    [line]


    Does anybody know the status of doing this in Michigan? If I encounter an LEO, do I need to notify him of the recording in progress, and get their permission to continue?

  2. #2
    Campaign Veteran
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,544

    Post imported post

    badger98 wrote:
    Does anybody know the status of doing this in Michigan?* If I encounter an LEO, do I need to notify him of the recording in progress, and get their permission to continue?
    Hi Badger, welcome to the forum.

    In Michigan, we are a "one party" state. That means that if one party is aware of the conversation being recorded (and that person is you), you are able to legally record the conversation, no matter where it is.

    The only time you'll get in legal hot water is if you "eavesdrop" on a conversation that is private. As in - record a conversation of someone else - that you are not a party to.

    Law Citations:

    Definition for Eavesdrop: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-539a
    Law that prohibits eavesdropping: http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?mcl-750-539c

    Hope this helps.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    What I suggest and practice is the use of no less than 2 recorders, (I carry 3) and keeping it no secret that one of the recorders is in use, with the secret one being deep in a pocket or one of the spy button, pen, watch or similar type recorders.

    I suggest declaring the out in the open recorder, because this gets at least 70% of non OC friendly cops to be on better behavior. But the lesser police we have seen have been known to snatch the recorder and shut it off while violating your other rights.

    My theory is that if the main recorder gets them to increase their good behaior, good. If it gets them to snatch it, that's an unlawful seizure in gross violation of state and federal laws, and I want audio and video of that, not to mention the unlawful terry stop I'd be the subject of.

    I'm no lawyer, but whether or not you get the consent of a criminal to video tape him or her victimizing you shouldn't mean much, whether it's public and consented to or not.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  4. #4
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    Yep, Michigan law makes it illegal to use any device to eavesdrop upon a conversation without the consent of all parties. However, the Michigan Court of Appeals has ruled that a participant in a private conversation may record it without violating the statute; "eavesdrop" refers only to overhearing or recording the private conversations of others. (Sullivan v. Gray, 342 N.W. 2d 58, 60-61, Mich. Ct. App. 1982). The point being: if you record a conversation to which you are not a party , you have violated the law unless you get the consent of everyone involved.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  5. #5
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    Hm..
    I thought everyone had to consent to their recording as well.

    So for example, if a fellow employee at my work is trying to get me fired, then goes off on a rant about the boss, throwing f-bombs, and being inappropriate in front of my patients, if I record that, since I'm one of the parties involved in her rant, all is legal?
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  6. #6
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Michigander wrote:
    What I suggest and practice is the use of no less than 2 recorders, (I carry 3) and keeping it no secret that one of the recorders is in use, with the secret one being deep in a pocket or one of the spy button, pen, watch or similar type recorders.

    I suggest declaring the out in the open recorder, because this gets at least 70% of non OC friendly cops to be on better behavior. But the lesser police we have seen have been known to snatch the recorder and shut it off while violating your other rights.

    My theory is that if the main recorder gets them to increase their good behaior, good. If it gets them to snatch it, that's an unlawful seizure in gross violation of state and federal laws, and I want audio and video of that, not to mention the unlawful terry stop I'd be the subject of.

    I'm no lawyer, but whether or not you get the consent of a criminal to video tape him or her victimizing you shouldn't mean much, whether it's public and consented to or not.
    More then one recorder makes a lot of sense but if you dont mention the recording part then most likely they wont find it unless they search you in which they would find all the recorder maybe except for something that doesnt look like a "Recorder". So when I buy my recorder I'm going to also get a pen recorder or something of the non-recorder look. Great info guys. I appreciate all the great details. It might be fun making a print out of the details of the court case in case they gave me a hard time about the recorder. I'll put it with the trespass one

    Mike

  7. #7
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    Malignity, if what you said is happening in real life, and if recorders are allowed at where you work, what I would do is use a recorder all day, and wear one of dougwg's awesome recording consent stickers, or perhaps one that you make yourself, just as a way to try to make sure you don't violate any laws.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Mulligan's Valley
    Posts
    4,830

    Post imported post

    mikestilly wrote:
    So when I buy my recorder I'm going to also get a pen recorder or something of the non-recorder look.

    Mike
    I would suggest instead of a pen one of the button or watch kinds. Pens will probably be harder to aim the lens. A watch you can simply cross your arms and do hand gestures in a seemingly meaningless way, meanwhile aiming the lens straight at what you're trying to record.

    Of course, there is always the option to use both. That's the beauty of the modern cheap chinese electronics. If you've got 100 bucks or so you can set aside for spy cams, you can carry 2 or 3 pretty easily.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Macomb County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,865

    Post imported post

    Oh btw I forgot to mention that if you carry these recorders I dont recommend going to any military bases with them. If a MP or anyone else catches you everything would be confiscated and most likely you will never get them back. I'm on military bases every now and then and all I bring is a camera (I'm usually on vacation) and ask where it's safe for me to take pics if I do normally I don't take any on base. There may be also charges involved as well. Same can be said about courtrooms. When I was on a jury they specifically told us not to record anything and phones must be turned off as we entered. The TV stations were there one day an I was like wtf but they get written approval beforehand apparently.

    Mike

  10. #10
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    malignity wrote:
    Hm..
    I thought everyone had to consent to their recording as well.

    So for example, if a fellow employee at my work is trying to get me fired, then goes off on a rant about the boss, throwing f-bombs, and being inappropriate in front of my patients, if I record that, since I'm one of the parties involved in her rant, all is legal?
    You mention "patients", I know some hospitals have rules against employees carrying any type of recording devices. Probably something to do with HIPPA law.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  11. #11
    Regular Member malignity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Warren, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    1,101

    Post imported post

    Bronson wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Hm..
    I thought everyone had to consent to their recording as well.

    So for example, if a fellow employee at my work is trying to get me fired, then goes off on a rant about the boss, throwing f-bombs, and being inappropriate in front of my patients, if I record that, since I'm one of the parties involved in her rant, all is legal?
    You mention "patients", I know some hospitals have rules against employees carrying any type of recording devices.* Probably something to do with HIPPA law.

    Bronson



    Ugh. You're right. Damn HIPPA crap.
    All opinions posted on opencarry.org are my own, and do not necessarily reflect the views of opencarry.org or Michigan Open Carry Inc.

  12. #12
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    malignity wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    malignity wrote:
    Hm..
    I thought everyone had to consent to their recording as well.

    So for example, if a fellow employee at my work is trying to get me fired, then goes off on a rant about the boss, throwing f-bombs, and being inappropriate in front of my patients, if I record that, since I'm one of the parties involved in her rant, all is legal?
    You mention "patients", I know some hospitals have rules against employees carrying any type of recording devices. Probably something to do with HIPPA law.

    Bronson



    Ugh. You're right. Damn HIPPA crap.
    Hippa was ultimately all the health reform that the Clintons managed to get done.... As stupid as that is it is nothing compared to what the ONE wants to do!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •