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Thread: Received police report from Madison PD on my detainment from three weeks ago

  1. #1
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    I have three people who can testify to the following:

    1. When asked what the holster was for, I replied "lawfully open carrying". When asked if I was "exercising my second amendment rights", I replied "self defense". I did not confirm their statement about exercising anything.

    2. When asked where my weapon was, I said it was in the backseat, out of my reach.

    3. I was told that if I continued to open carry, I could expect to be arrested.

    Now...from the Madison police report:

    1. "I asked him why he was armed in the grocery store. He said that he was exercising his right to open carry."

    2. "The pistol was in a case under the passenger's seat." (this would be illegal if it was true)

    3. I explained the circumstances to him and advised him that he should be prepared for more incidents like this if he chooses to go armed in public."

    Did I learn my lesson? Yes. I will no longer ever open carry without a voice recorder. If I can get a good enough model that holds lots of hours, I'll turn it on as soon as I leave the house.

    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did.

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    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did

    The only thing I understand is that you are lazy. Filing a lawsuit is not that hard, you are just lazy and you don't want to do it. EVERY federal court website has a pro-se manual with forms, examples, flow charts, etc... If you want to pretend it is expensive and time consuming, fine suit yourself. You just shouldn't complain when you are hassled.

    It isn't very expensive (informa paupis allows you to file without cost and you can serve the opposing party with a US marshal your only other costs are postage) and it isn't very time consuming. Your problem is one of motivation, not time and money.



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    codename_47 wrote:
    The only thing I understand is that you are lazy.
    Good for you.



    I swear, some of the attitudes here make me wonder why I even come to this website.

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    If it's so easy, go get yourself detained/arrested/hassled and then file the lawsuit.

    I agree with the mission of all who exercise their rights, however, attitudes like yours are counterproductive at best and damaging at worst if that's how you present yourself to the public while exercising those rights.



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    EVERY federal court website has a pro-se manual with forms,
    So if you file pro-se and you lose, are you responsible for attorneys fees of those you filed against?

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    Wouldn't the Attorney for the defendant be the City Attorney?

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    I don't know... I do know that the attorney for west milwaukee and chilton in Jesus's federal case is NOT a city attorney but a private attorney on Plankinton in Milwaukee. Which is why I question if you file pro-se and lose are you responsible for those attorney fees.

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    Yes, very true. I would think that could be a possibility if they ask for attorney fees. Which I am sure the tyrants would.

  9. #9
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    MadisonRebel wrote:
    I have three people who can testify to the following:

    1. When asked what the holster was for, I replied "lawfully open carrying". When asked if I was "exercising my second amendment rights", I replied "self defense". I did not confirm their statement about exercising anything.

    2. When asked where my weapon was, I said it was in the backseat, out of my reach.

    3. I was told that if I continued to open carry, I could expect to be arrested.

    Now...from the Madison police report:

    1. "I asked him why he was armed in the grocery store. He said that he was exercising his right to open carry."

    2. "The pistol was in a case under the passenger's seat." (this would be illegal if it was true)

    3. I explained the circumstances to him and advised him that he should be prepared for more incidents like this if he chooses to go armed in public."

    Did I learn my lesson? Yes. I will no longer ever open carry without a voice recorder. If I can get a good enough model that holds lots of hours, I'll turn it on as soon as I leave the house.

    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did.
    As for Point #1--- As you know you can have a gun for "any lawful reason" which would certainly include "open carry" (which is not a "right" technically, it's a carry method.) But any answer they wrote down, even inaccurately, wouldn't hurt as long as it's a "lawful reason." Hell, they could have said you carried as "a fashion statement." So what? That's a lawful reason. Obviously though, your recollection and that of your witnesses is probably better than the officer who wrote the report who is probably relying on their preconceived notions of why you would be carrying more than they're relying on their actual memory.

    As for Point #2--- Somewhere-- and I will look for it when I can-- I have a letter from the Madison Police from a few years back where they acknowledged that it is completely legal (although they said that they are not in favor of it) to have an unloaded encased firearm under the seat, on your lap, next to you on the seat.


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    MadisonRebel wrote:
    codename_47 wrote:
    The only thing I understand is that you are lazy.
    Good for you.



    I swear, some of the attitudes here make me wonder why I even come to this website.
    I would like to take a second to say that I am sorry, but you know...

    Gun rights bring out a very wide spread of people. Some piss me off, most don't. Just got to learn to take the dirt, to get to the gold... This is still the best place I have seen to help me make sure my gun rights do not fall to the side of the road...

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    MadisonRebel wrote:
    ...

    Did I learn my lesson? Yes. I will no longer ever open carry without a voice recorder. If I can get a good enough model that holds lots of hours, I'll turn it on as soon as I leave the house.

    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did.
    Well done. In fact, the first thing I did before my first OC in public was pick up a voice recorder. I keep it in my truck, and before I step out of the vehicle I turn it on and put it in my pocket. Unfortunately for Frank (recent arrest) it looks like he didn't have it on while it was in his pocket, and a LEO probably doesn't want you fidgeting in your pocket while he's approaching you.

    Secondly, I fully and completely understand the issue of not having time/money to take up the cause of fighting a legal battle. Some people are so used to manipulating others into fighting for THEIR rights that it seems second nature to call you lazy for not pushing an issue that would clearly benefit THEM. It seems flagrantly ignorant that someone with no knowledge of your situation can assume that you DON'T have kids and/or parents to attend to, a job (or two) to go to, a house being rebuilt, limited internet access... really the list of possibilities could go on.

    So while SOME of you might have all the time in the world to read up on how to represent yourself and file charges on your own, don't make an ass of yourself and assume everyone else that doesn't is "lazy."

    But let me finish this long-winded post with an agreement with Aarons... this IS still the best place I have found online for like-minded individuals willing to fight for their Rights. So don't give us all up on account of a few jackasses. BEST of luck Rebel!

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    Again, the question of a legal fund is at hand.

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    Who would be in charge of said fund? How would we decide for who and how the money should be removed. If I walk into a shcool, should I still get a lawyer from the fund. We have to get this stuff ironed out before we start this fund. My wife is at a large bank, so I guess opening the fund is no problem at all. I think we might want to set up a "board" to manage the funding. About 5 people should do it, as so we never have any split vote. Any time money is removed, we should have the 5 votes. Hugh Jarmis, and BNH will get my votes so far. So we got two (if both will take it). What do you all think?

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    codename_47 wrote:

    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did

    The only thing I understand is that you are lazy. Filing a lawsuit is not that hard, you are just lazy and you don't want to do it. EVERY federal court website has a pro-se manual with forms, examples, flow charts, etc... If you want to pretend it is expensive and time consuming, fine suit yourself. You just shouldn't complain when you are hassled.

    It isn't very expensive (informa paupis allows you to file without cost and you can serve the opposing party with a US marshal your only other costs are postage) and it isn't very time consuming. Your problem is one of motivation, not time and money.

    Then go through what he went through, and file.

    It is his choice as to 'course of action' forward. It isn't yours, OCDOs, or mine. It is HE who must live with all consequences of his actions forward of this point. That does not make him "lazy," it only makes his choices different than yours. Get over it.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    I don't know... I do know that the attorney for west milwaukee and chilton in Jesus's federal case is NOT a city attorney but a private attorney on Plankinton in Milwaukee. Which is why I question if you file pro-se and lose are you responsible for those attorney fees.
    Hugh, your liability for attorney's fees does not really hinge on if you file pro se or not. The Civil Rights Act has a "fee-shifting" provision that says the prevailing party can get his attorney's fees. On its face, it appears to be symmetric. In practice, though, courts have determined that a prevailing plaintiff is entitled to fees. A prevailing defendant rarely gets fees, and essentially has to show that the case was frivolous when filed.

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    AaronS wrote:
    Who would be in charge of said fund? How would we decide for who and how the money should be removed. If I walk into a shcool, should I still get a lawyer from the fund. We have to get this stuff ironed out before we start this fund. My wife is at a large bank, so I guess opening the fund is no problem at all. I think we might want to set up a "board" to manage the funding. About 5 people should do it, as so we never have any split vote. Any time money is removed, we should have the 5 votes. Hugh Jarmis, and BNH will get my votes so far. So we got two (if both will take it). What do you all think?
    That is why We can not rush this event. It needs to be done carefully and with thought to all aspects.
    A trustee would be a bank or law firm, I would think.
    A Board is a great idea. Someone acting out of negligence or outside the law would not qualify for legal financial assistance.
    To be honest the event will probably not take place until February of 2010. I know this will disappoint many, but the object is to have 1000 or more attending. Preferably more.
    I have Food/Catering lined up, Entertainment, Just need to reserve the fair grounds, hit up some sponsors for donations.
    I was going to use either the city park or the fair grounds and decided on the fair grounds because the fair grounds is not government owned and we will be able to use the bathrooms with out having to worry about getting permission.
    Selling copies of the flexyourrights videos would be a great idea.
    I have 1 guest speaker already (Nik Clark)
    It would be great if we could get our state researchers to speak. I think we have two of them. one could speak on the School zone restrictions and the other on transportation laws.
    The problem is getting people on here to participate. Best case scenario, we even get members from out of state to attend.
    I realize there have been picnics in this state with 200 to 400 people attending. If this works those events would look small in comparison.
    With this OpenCarryWisconsin will evolve and the event will become an annual event.
    Any thoughts?


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    There are several actions going on right now that people seem to agree are meritorious, yet contributions are not apparently significant in volume. It may be premature to worry about a board and a fund for future cases when the current ones are unfunded.

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    jrm wrote:
    There are several actions going on right now that people seem to agree are meritorious, yet contributions are not apparently significant in volume. It may be premature to worry about a board and a fund for future cases when the current ones are unfunded.
    You got a good point.

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    Enough said, I will spend my time on other things. I have no legal worries.

    What has been insignificant to date is the turn out for any of the events in comparison to our membership numbers.

    This is a forum of lets talk about change rather than lets make change.

    Unless certain people take up the lead on something no one wants to get involved.

    Sounds like sheep to me.

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    hugh jarmis wrote:
    EVERY federal court website has a pro-se manual with forms,
    So if you file pro-se and you lose, are you responsible for attorneys fees of those you filed against?
    The good news in about filing in federal court under Section 1983 is the atty fee shifing provision for prevailing plaintiffs.

    The bad news is that federal courts do not like to and cannot really construe state law, see Pennhurst- and Wisconsin apparently has no fee shifitng statute for civil rights actions, though if damage recovery possibility is high, then contringency may be option.

    But as for the apparentl custom or practice of making people sue to get theirguns back anfter confiscation incident to bogus arrests, this may be attacked directly by suing police departments under Section 1983 in federal court not for return of the gun, but for failure to have provided you post-deprivation due process.

    affected folks should try to fnd a WI barred atty to look into such an action - the idirect approach is often more successful tha the frontal wave head on method

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    So if you file pro-se and you lose, are you responsible for attorneys fees of those you filed against?

    Not under the American rule. Each side pays their own costs, unless a law or contract states that you have to pay the other sides costs. As long as you have some basis in reality for filing the lawsuit, you aren't likely going to be penalized.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_rule

    I agree with the mission of all who exercise their rights, however, attitudes like yours are counterproductive at best and damaging at worst if that's how you present yourself to the public while exercising those rights.

    I don't go out looking for a fight, I'm just not going to tolerate someone walking on my rights, and you shouldn't either. What is wrong with that?

    It isn't hard, there are lots of sample forms already on the website (dickson city)


    Secondly, I fully and completely understand the issue of not having time/money to take up the cause of fighting a legal battle.

    I don't. Have you guys ever filed a Federal lawsuit? State lawsuit? Small claims even? I have. I even wrote up a thread here on filing pro-se lawsuits.

    Wouldn't the Attorney for the defendant be the City Attorney?

    Not necessarily. They likely have an insurance company that would pay and the insurance company will be driving the lawsuit defense. They tend to hire these things out to a local atty.


    Then go through what he went through, and file.
    Been there, done that. Hence the lazy comment.

    Yes, very true. I would think that could be a possibility if they ask for attorney fees. Which I am sure the tyrants would.

    They very well may ask, and they are quite unlikely to receive attorney's fees.

    It seems flagrantly ignorant that someone with no knowledge of your situation can assume that you DON'T have kids and/or parents to attend to, a job (or two) to go to, a house being rebuilt, limited internet access... really the list of possibilities could go on.

    You obviously don't know the time requirements for filing a lawsuit.

    Again, the question of a legal fund is at hand.


    Outside of paying the $350 filing fee, I don't see how one would be necessary. If you can read the dickson city lawsuit, you should be able to copy, paste, and change the dates and file your own.

    A prevailing defendant rarely gets fees, and essentially has to show that the case was frivolous when filed.

    Bingo! We have a winner.



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    I have mentioned representing ones self a long time ago.

    Got the same response then.

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    It's awesome that some people can toss down a few hundred bucks on a lawsuit where they had no voice recorder, and testimony from a few friends in their 20s against police officers.

    Some of us can't. Apparently if we're not rich, we're lazy.

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    It's awesome that some people can toss down a few hundred bucks on a lawsuit where they had no voice recorder, and testimony from a few friends in their 20s against police officers.

    Look, if you have no recorder, that is your own fault. You carry around a gun that costs hundreds of dollars, but can't spring for a $30 recorder?

    Filing a lawsuit can cost ZERO dollars for those inclined to read. If you are really that broke, you present your case to the judge and they will likely grant an informa paupis. Of course you have to be willing to write up a lawsuit and file it....

    Rich has nothing to do with it.

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    codename_47 wrote:
    It's awesome that some people can toss down a few hundred bucks on a lawsuit where they had no voice recorder, and testimony from a few friends in their 20s against police officers.

    Look, if you have no recorder, that is your own fault. You carry around a gun that costs hundreds of dollars, but can't spring for a $30 recorder?

    Filing a lawsuit can cost ZERO dollars for those inclined to read. If you are really that broke, you present your case to the judge and they will likely grant an informa paupis. Of course you have to be willing to write up a lawsuit and file it....

    Rich has nothing to do with it.
    To reiterate:

    wrightme wrote:
    codename_47 wrote:

    Understand, before you comment, that I do not have the time or finances to prosecute over this. I wish I did

    The only thing I understand is that you are lazy. Filing a lawsuit is not that hard, you are just lazy and you don't want to do it. EVERY federal court website has a pro-se manual with forms, examples, flow charts, etc... If you want to pretend it is expensive and time consuming, fine suit yourself. You just shouldn't complain when you are hassled.

    It isn't very expensive (informa paupis allows you to file without cost and you can serve the opposing party with a US marshal your only other costs are postage) and it isn't very time consuming. Your problem is one of motivation, not time and money.

    Then go through what he went through, and file.

    It is his choice as to 'course of action' forward. It isn't yours, OCDOs, or mine. It is HE who must live with all consequences of his actions forward of this point. That does not make him "lazy," it only makes his choices different than yours. Get over it.
    It ain't your choice. It is his. Respect it.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

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