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Thread: Negative LEO/IKEA Encounter

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:47 PM.

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    Aahhh.

    Hopefully IKEA corporate will be on our side.

    -Richard-

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:47 PM.

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    Vance I can't believe this happened in Canton. What a bunch of ass wipe's. The trespass card is the usual MO for these cops trying to talk tough. Good thing that the trespass statute is very specific. No judge or even prosecutor would accept a trespass charge when you were never asked to leave/ What was that about porcupine comment? Is that someone from the board?

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    (I did not have a recorder going so this is what I can remember - I think I did better this time than the last time!)
    Yes, sounds like you handled things perfectly. You were under extreme pressure, and you did fine.

    To clarify, you didn't have a recorder, or you had a recorder but didn't have it going? Either way, this is why folks need to considerhavinga recorder AND setting itgoing before going into public. If folks don't want to suffer from, "Damn, if only I coulda got that recorded!" Because these situations are on you unpredictably and FAST, most of the time.

    Well done, though, T Vance.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Vance definitely handled it great! I hear that trespass crap so often as a lame excuse I'm printing off the damn MCL and carrying it with me. I've actually heard of Porcupine 411 they are a libertarian group. How offensive is that. So because you're open carrying they classify you as a libertarian?? So only libertarians should care about their rights? What friggin nonsense. Sounds like the something Nancy Palosi would say.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:48 PM.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:48 PM.

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    I added to my post above. This crap really pisses me off. What recorded do you guys recommend?

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    The Canton picnic should be interesting. You should invite those cops to it. I'm definitely going I love chili lol.

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    What a bunch of jackasses! Keep us informed!

    And Good job buddy!!!!:celebrate
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.

    Truth be told since the store employee had called the police and articulated that he didn't want T Vance in the store there was no need for police to engage in that elaborate game. A simple statement from the officer that the store wanted T Vance to leave would have been sufficient.

    T Vance's knowledge of the law, and how it is applied, is what carried the day.

    Edited to add: Good job of staying calm (at least on the outside) while thinking on your feet T Vance!

    I have great respect for police officers since there isn't enough money in the world to get me to do their job. Yet it seems upside down when officers go out of their way to "play the game" with someone who is engaged in legal activities.

    Friends... and I know I'm speaking to the choir... educating folks that guns alone do not a criminal make is going to be a long and difficult task.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Good going, TVance.

    Even though the cops knew where the line was, they wanted to push it.

    Don't overlook theillegal detention that occurred when you moved to leave and the officer blocked your path.Nor, the attempt at collecting intelligence on membership inan (pro-rights?) organization.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:49 PM.

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    Well T we are tied on Fuzz coming up to us now. But this is some BULLHIT,I am going to OC there sometime soon. When there is a Picnic in Canton I am sure as shi6 going to that. Well antway though I would chime in on the subject and say ********. The FUZZ Need to LEAVE US ALONE

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:
    What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.
    Could you pleaseclarify what you mean in my situation? I'm not following you.
    He is saying they were trying to get you to admit you were trespassing so they could jam you up!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    mikestilly wrote:
    What recorded do you guys recommend?
    I carry an Olympus WS-321M. Small, slim, digital, and can directly plug into a USB port to d/l the sound files. Sound files are in standard Windows Media format, so no need for proprietary software at all to use the thing. Excellent sound recording quality. I spent a few more bucks on this than other less expensive recorders, butthisrecorder has proven to me to beworth every dollar I spent on it.

    I wear it suspended from a necklace around my neck, just underneath my top layer of clothing. It's in a good position to pick up what I say and what someone I'm facing is saying. It's so slim, there's nothing bulky noticeable on my chest.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    I have one in the same family... a WS-400s I really like it!
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

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    mikestilly wrote:
    What recorded do you guys recommend?
    In my experience, the most reliable electronics I use come from Sony.

    What I like to do is either have my recorder going on the hear a sound record it function, or off, but in hand. In the store, I may have used the record only sounds function.

    In regards to police stops, I have a theory. If it's not a serious felony stop situation, the first words that come out of your mouth need to be asking if you're being detained. If they say yes, immediately call 911 and ask for help from the MSP because of being illegally detained. If they say no, turn around and walk away. If they stop you, again call 911. If the cop is especially nasty, this may not be possible. But it should be the first thing you want to do. Another benefit of calling 911 is that it WILL be recorded by official means admissable in court.

    I know there is a lot of pressure that police know how to exert on you, but just remind yourself constantly, if the police want to question you, SHUT THE **** UP AND DON'T TALK TO THEM! It can't help you to talk to them. They'll make you think it will, but IT WON'T.

    There are spy video cameras available that take the shape of hats, pens, buttons, watches, and other common objects. If you get stopped, ideally you have one of these devices going from the very beginning to supplement any other actions.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:50 PM.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    T Vance wrote:
    Bikenut wrote:
    What I found .... "interesting" ... is that the officers were playing a little game of trying to help the person of interest (T Vance in this case) not only find something to be guilty of but to also help them find evidence of guilt.............. all by allowing the one being questioned to assume something was being said that wasn't, and had never actually been, said.
    Could you pleaseclarify what you mean in my situation? I'm not following you.
    The officers allowed you (and will allow any other person in a situation where confronted by an authority figure) to assume you MUST answer/comply with their requests simply because they are the authority figure.

    For example (not taken from your personal experience but offered as a generic encounter):

    LEO asks- "Can I see your ID?"
    This is really a question but most folks "assume" it is an order simply because of who is asking.

    LEO says- "Wait while I write you for trespass."
    Again, most folks would assume that the officer has already enough evidence of trespass or he/she would not be writing it up. Allowing that to happen (because it is an authority figure doing it) without questioning it would mean the person allows themselves to be guilty... at least right at that moment... and fighting it later will be much more difficult than questioning it right then.

    So it is a mind game being played hoping the one being questioned will fall right into being led down a path of assumption ending in being arrested/cited for something extremely difficult to prove otherwise later.

    In short, it is a game of asking questions that are known will be assumed to be orders just because the one asking the questions is an authority figure... ie.. a police officer.

    The good thing is that folks like you who know the law and counter questions (that are cloaked in the unspoken assumption of being orders from an authority figure.. ie.. a police officer) with questions that require answers directly from the law and not the officer himself/herself stop the "game".

    Example:
    LEO asks- "Can I see your ID?"
    Again, this is just a question.

    I reply- "Am I required to show you my ID?"
    That requires an answer directly from the laws governing the situation at hand regardless of what the individual officer thinks or how he/she wants the interview to go. That "stops" the "game".

    I had a conversation with an officer a while back where I was being given the officer's unfavorable opinion of open carry. The officer was in uniform in a place where there were other uninvolved people around listening intently.
    The uniform alone carried the unspoken message that someone in authority didn't like ordinary folks to openly carry guns around. Everyone heard that unspoken message... myself included... some folks heard it even if only on a subconscious level.
    When I had a chance I said in a voice that carried to everyone who was listening... and everyone was listening carefully hoping to hear me get my rear chewed:

    "Open carry in Michigan is legal............... isn't it?"

    And he replied "Yes."
    Everyone heard him say "Yes."
    So everyone heard someone in uniform, someone in authority, say that open carry is legal. Which countered all of his "opinions".

    It is a mind game being played to gain advantage by some officers who understand that most folks consider a question from someone in uniform as the same as an "order".

    So in your situation you knew the law and, more importantly, didn't play the "game" but kept the encounter focused upon the law.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    T, when you come up here, lunch is on me!springerdave.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Bikenut wrote:
    Again, most folks would assume that the officer has already enough evidence of trespass or he/she would not be writing it up. Allowing that to happen (because it is an authority figure doing it) without questioning it would mean the person allows themselves to be guilty... at least right at that moment... and fighting it later will be much more difficult than questioning it right then.
    Good post by you above, other than I disagree with your opinion here. A person exercisingtheirright to remain silent DOES NOT, as far as I know, EVER "allow themselves to be guilty". You are guilty of trespass if, in fact,you are lawfully asked to leave a property and, in fact,you unlawfully refuse to comply and you stay on the property.

    An officer can say they will cite or arrest you for anything and your silence does not make you guilty, to any degree whatsoever,of whatever they may follow through and cite or arrest you for.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:50 PM.

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    Last edited by T Vance; 09-20-2010 at 01:50 PM.

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