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Thread: Pulled over by LEO in Shenandoah County

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    I was traveling Friday night to a town called Woodstock in Shenandoah County. I was pulled over in a small town in Shenandoah County called New Marketbecause of suspician of DUI. I hadn't had a drop to drink. I drive a big ol' truck and I wasreading every sign to make sure I wasn't lost while constantly scanning my instrument panel to make sure I wasmaintaining thespeed limit.I have a tendancy to float a little when I read every sign, especially in the mountains on roads I am unfamiliar with; so I don't really have a problem with the officer's reason for checking on me.

    What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was. I felt like things would go bad if I didn't comply so I handed him my permit and told him where my pistol was. I know I was right and after I complied I attempted to educate him. He wasn't having any of it.

    This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
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    Sounds like you handled it appropriately. You attempted to inform him, but you didn't choose to escalate it beyond where it needed to go. Sounds like you were polite and complied.

    I would probably follow-up with a cordial and informative letter to the officer's agency, just to help raise their awareness.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    I agree, I would probably write a letter saying basically, your officer is mis-informed, it may help your organization in the future if you take some time to ensure that they are all aware of the law on this matter.

    T Dubya wrote:
    What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was. I felt like things would go bad if I didn't comply so I handed him my permit and told him where my pistol was. I know I was right and after I complied I attempted to educate him. He wasn't having any of it.

    This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?
    Now this raises a question for me. First, I am not a LEO basher, I know several either current or former LEOs and I have the utmost respect for them. And I fully know that a few bad apples do not spoil the bushel, so to speak.

    Here's the queestion: Where is the line drawn between "I have to act like I know everything, even when I clearly don't, so I maintain control of the situation, and look like I am in charge" and "I understand that I do not know every word of the Virginia and Federal code, therefore, I am willing to at least acknowledge to a citizen that I don't agree with their point, but I will check it out."

    LEOs who drive the first line aren't doing themselves any favors, nor any favors for their brothers in the LEO community. Taken to it's natural end, attitudes like that put you on the wrong end of a 1983 cash damages award.

    Is there any general training or standard for where along this line LEOs are supposed to drive?

    TFred

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    T Dubya wrote:
    What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was.
    You are correct that Virginia has no duty to inform -- "duty to inform" is having to immediately tell the officer about your permit and weapon. The officer "requesting" to see your CHP, as you've described it, does not fall within a "duty to inform" situation. Unfortunately , VA law wasn't on your side at that point. Paragraph H of § 18.2-308 states "the person issued the permit shall...display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency...upon demand by a law-enforcement officer."

    The officer had a valid reason to pull you over. In the course of his encounter with you, he learned you had a CHP and suspected you may be armed. And while he may have been a jerk about it, it doesn't appear the officer did anything wrong.

    It sucks and the officers demeanor could change how the whole encounter is perceived but that's the way it is.
    ---

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    rlh2005 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was.
    You are correct that Virginia has no duty to inform -- "duty to inform" is having to immediately tell the officer about your permit and weapon. The officer "requesting" to see your CHP, as you've described it, does not fall within a "duty to inform" situation. Unfortunately , VA law wasn't on your side at that point. Paragraph H of § 18.2-308 states "the person issued the permit shall...display the permit and a photo-identification issued by a government agency...upon demand by a law-enforcement officer."

    The officer had a valid reason to pull you over. In the course of his encounter with you, he learned you had a CHP and suspected you may be armed. And while he may have been a jerk about it, it doesn't appear the officer did anything wrong.

    It sucks and the officers demeanor could change how the whole encounter is perceived but that's the way it is.
    +1

    I was born in Shenandoah and understand the problem. The Deputy didn't intend to be rude, he was just speaking in his native dialect.

    That's normal for the area. Most people don't know it, but I wasn't always as charming as I am now. It took years to learn to talk "East of the Mountain":celebrate

    I can help with the translations....

    Deputy..What the Hell you doin here boy.
    Translation.. May I see your Drivers License and Registration Sir

    Deputy...Where you got your gun at?
    Translation..Please leave your weapon in it; present location Sir

    Deputy...Get the hell outta my County
    Translation..Have a safe and pleasant trip Sir

    It's really not hard to learn, for instance...earl means Oil, unless it' preceded by another word like whup. Whup Earl, would mean Whip Aerial, as in antenna. Easy, isn't it.



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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    A few other things to remember are that many descriptive phrases relate to country labor. Knives are extremely important in the area and people take pride in their ability to properly sharpen them.
    A man who can't sharpen a knife i considered retarded or substandard.

    An often used phrase is:

    There ain't a sharp knife in Forestville.

    Translation:

    Everyone in Forestville married their sister

    Another thing to remember are articles of clothing.

    Example:

    Tar String

    Translation:

    An inexpensive belt

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    One last thing are danger signs. While most people at the base of the mountain are fine folks, some, most descendants of that no account George Custer who raided the valley during the war of Northern Aggression, are perverts.

    If you hear the phrase:

    You got a real purdy mouth boy....shoot him quick and drive away, very fast.


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    peter nap wrote:

    It's really not hard to learn, for instance...earl means Oil,
    Haha... I spent some time overseas in a truck full of boys from SW virginia. It took me about 15 minutes to figure out what my driver was talking about when he told me he wanted me to check the earl for him.

    I also have a standing invitation to head up the holler for a tar far.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    One last thing are danger signs. While most people at the base of the mountain are fine folks, some, most descendants of that no account George Custer who raided the valley during the war of Northern Aggression, are perverts.
    Would you be taken terribly aback if I told you I have a newfound appreciation for the cut of your jib, sir?
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    I was traveling Friday night to a town called Woodstock in Shenandoah County. I was pulled over in a small town in Shenandoah County called New Marketbecause of suspician of DUI. I hadn't had a drop to drink. I drive a big ol' truck and I wasreading every sign to make sure I wasn't lost while constantly scanning my instrument panel to make sure I wasmaintaining thespeed limit.I have a tendancy to float a little when I read every sign, especially in the mountains on roads I am unfamiliar with; so I don't really have a problem with the officer's reason for checking on me.

    What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was. I felt like things would go bad if I didn't comply so I handed him my permit and told him where my pistol was. I know I was right and after I complied I attempted to educate him. He wasn't having any of it.

    This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?
    Sounds like you handled it cooly and effectively.

    The officer was clearly wrong on the point of law. Focus on that in your letter of complaint, stressing your willingness to fully cooperate, even though he was wrong.

    Your complaint could very well make it easier on the next guy.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    One last thing are danger signs. While most people at the base of the mountain are fine folks, some, most descendants of that no account George Custer who raided the valley during the war of Northern Aggression, are perverts.
    Would you be taken terribly aback if I told you I have a newfound appreciation for the cut of your jib, sir?
    I'll tell you something that only families that go way back in the area know...and people that read my news:P

    When Custer came through it was to destroy all supplies. We didn't have any troops there. Just women and Children and a few old men. He burned and stole everything in sight. Stole a gold watch from us.

    Anyway, news was slow in getting around then and it took a few week for Little Bighorn to get to the area. When it did, the entire Shenandoah area had a big party. Some still do there on Custer Is Dead Day.

    This is where I was born.
    The Shenandoah River was our front yard.

    This


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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    Custer, Sherman, Sheridan, Butler, Grant... their M.O.s were all pretty much the same.

    God bless you for keeping the truth alive and for what your ancestors endured.

    Also, your "family" home is not too dissimilar from what any good Southron imagines Heaven must be like.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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    Regular Member ODA 226's Avatar
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    My Favorite: "You in my county now boy!"

    Translation: "You are SCREWED!"




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    B-2-10 SFG(A)/ A-2-11 SFG(A) 1977-1994

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    Custer, Sherman, Sheridan, Butler, Grant... their M.O.s were all pretty much the same.

    God bless you for keeping the truth alive and for what your ancestors endured.

    Also, your "family" home is not too dissimilar from what any good Southron imagines Heaven must be like.
    I traveled back to Richmond today, but on my way back through Shenandoah County I made sure to read every historical marker I spotted Friday night. There are a pile of historic markers on that stretch of highway.

    I was shocked to find out that Union troops from Ohio tore down a hospital inShenandoah to salvage the lumber to build of all things gallows.

    I also drove by the historic marker that commemorates the cadets at VMI that were very successful on the battlefield. Capturing a few cannons if I recall.
    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
    Ceasefire NJ Director Brian Miller, NJ.com, August 20, 2009

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    wylde007 wrote:
    Custer, Sherman, Sheridan, Butler, Grant... their M.O.s were all pretty much the same.

    God bless you for keeping the truth alive and for what your ancestors endured.

    Also, your "family" home is not too dissimilar from what any good Southron imagines Heaven must be like.
    I traveled back to Richmond today, but on my way back through Shenandoah County I made sure to read every historical marker I spotted Friday night. There are a pile of historic markers on that stretch of highway.

    I was shocked to find out that Union troops from Ohio tore down a hospital inShenandoah to salvage the lumber to build of all things gallows.

    I also drove by the historic marker that commemorates the cadets at VMI that were very successful on the battlefield. Capturing a few cannons if I recall.
    Yep, a ton of history and it goes to show that the Government hasn't changed much.
    My Great, Great Grandfather enlisted but they sent him home because he had a side business making saltpeter.
    That was one of the key ingredients in gunpowder and they thought he was more valuable doing that than on the line. He kept his rifle, a Virginia Manufactury of Arms. (There's a story about them too)...

    And I built a copy of it a few years ago.

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    Regular Member wylde007's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    I also drove by the historic marker that commemorates the cadets at VMI that were very successful on the battlefield. Capturing a few cannons if I recall.
    The defense of New Market is an impressive feather in the cap of the Cadet Corps. Cadets as young as 15 engaged a numerically superior adversary and made a valiant capture of several guns, even though they were originally intended as a "reserve" line.

    The museum and grounds at New Market are some of my favorite in the Commonwealth and well worth the visit if you can make the trip.
    The quiet war has begun, with silent weapons
    And the newest slavery is to keep the people poor, and stupid
    Novos ordo seclorum ~ Mustaine

    Never argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  17. #17
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    wylde007 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    I also drove by the historic marker that commemorates the cadets at VMI that were very successful on the battlefield. Capturing a few cannons if I recall.
    The defense of New Market is an impressive feather in the cap of the Cadet Corps. Cadets as young as 15 engaged a numerically superior adversary and made a valiant capture of several guns, even though they were originally intended as a "reserve" line.

    The museum and grounds at New Market are some of my favorite in the Commonwealth and well worth the visit if you can make the trip.
    I agree. The NM Museum should be on the must see list.
    Williamsburg and Jamestown are interesting and I spend a lot of time in Williamsburg especially with the Gunsmiths....but Virginia was really settled in the foothills and mountains.

    The history and culture goes way beyond the war.
    Next time you're out that way, you might want to stop by the Dayton, Otterbine area and see how the Mennonites live while there are still some living the old way.

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    I gotta tell ya Peter, coming from a Michigan boy, those are some real nice pictures. I'd love to live in a place like that for the rest of my days but I married a city girl so some compromises must be made. Looks like a very beautiful area!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Milbars wrote:
    I gotta tell ya Peter, coming from a Michigan boy, those are some real nice pictures. I'd love to live in a place like that for the rest of my days but I married a city girl so some compromises must be made. Looks like a very beautiful area!
    That's what Old Va is all about Milbars. If we don'r preserve our rural heritage, another generation will see it completely gone.

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    T Dubya wrote:
    SNIP This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

    Formal,written, harshcomplaint.

    With a bit of ridicule thrown in.

    As mentioned by theposter above, once demanded, you hadto supply the CHP. You were under no obligation to answer any questions about location (5th Amendment), but since US vs Baker1 pretty much lets the cops seize guns during a traffic stop, you might as well have told him where the gun was, or risk being ordered out thevehicle and the vehicle searched.

    So, the main point of the complaint will be to slam home thelack of a duty to notify in VA.Maybe also write a little letter to the editor of the New Market newspaper to embarrass them into being a little more professional.


    1. US V Baker http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member Neplusultra's Avatar
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    Citizen wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    SNIP This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

    Formal,written, harshcomplaint.

    With a bit of ridicule thrown in.

    As mentioned by theposter above, once demanded, you hadto supply the CHP. You were under no obligation to answer any questions about location (5th Amendment), but since US vs Baker1 pretty much lets the cops seize guns during a traffic stop, you might as well have told him where the gun was, or risk being ordered out thevehicle and the vehicle searched.

    So, the main point of the complaint will be to slam home thelack of a duty to notify in VA.Maybe also write a little letter to the editor of the New Market newspaper to embarrass them into being a little more professional.


    1. US V Baker http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf
    One, you have to show the CHP, but if you said you did not have it because you were not CCing what could the officer do???

    He has no reason to suspect you are armed unless you tell him. Does the law allow him to assume that because you have a CHP ???

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    Neplusultra wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    SNIP This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

    Formal,written, harshcomplaint.

    With a bit of ridicule thrown in.

    As mentioned by theposter above, once demanded, you hadto supply the CHP. You were under no obligation to answer any questions about location (5th Amendment), but since US vs Baker1 pretty much lets the cops seize guns during a traffic stop, you might as well have told him where the gun was, or risk being ordered out thevehicle and the vehicle searched.

    So, the main point of the complaint will be to slam home thelack of a duty to notify in VA.Maybe also write a little letter to the editor of the New Market newspaper to embarrass them into being a little more professional.


    1. US V Baker http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf
    One, you have to show the CHP, but if you said you did not have it because you were not CCing what could the officer do???

    He has no reason to suspect you are armed unless you tell him. Does the law allow him to assume that because you have a CHP ???
    We've been through this conversation before, Ne.

    I'm not going to argue this with you. Read Baker. Its about traffic stops. It treatstraffic stops different than foot stops. Wanta bet the 4th Circuit will uphold that the CHP on the DMV return gives sufficient suspicion?

    Want a rogue cop to search the car and then try to sue him in court over it? Where the law may not be totally settled? Where the cop can claim good-faith?

    This is not a fight I would choose. Not with Baker as precedent.

    If I really wanted to refuse, I would answer the question after refusing consent, "Officer, I do not consent to telling you the location of my firearm, but since you have demanded it in a way that makes me think compliance may be compelled, I will tell you..." If any criminal charges develop, you may be able to claim submission to authority.

    Or, perhaps, politely refuse, as a 4A matter, to answer the question, and re-check if he isstilldemanding it. Thenkick in the submission-to-authority disclaimer, "...while I do not consent to telling you, I will answer your question since you have asked in away that makes me thinkyou will search the car over top of my refused consent." Or some such phrasing.

    The key point being to preserve your 4A rights against search and seizure, rather than waive them by consent.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    I traveled back to Richmond today, but on my way back through Shenandoah County I made sure to read every historical marker I spotted Friday night. There are a pile of historic markers on that stretch of highway.
    I don't know if it's complete, but this site has a searchable database of the Virginia Historical Highway Markers. Handy.

    TFred

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    peter nap wrote:
    Milbars wrote:
    I gotta tell ya Peter, coming from a Michigan boy, those are some real nice pictures.* I'd love to live in a place like that for the rest of my days but I married a city girl so some compromises must be made.* Looks like a very beautiful area!
    That's what Old Va is all about Milbars. If we don'r preserve our rural heritage, another generation will see it completely gone.
    +1 on that. The Valley as a whole is beautiful, and the history is rich. Seems like the Yankees just keep finding there way back though, as evidenced by the rapid expansion of "northern virginia" and associated suburbs. A northern "army" of different sorts...

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    Off topic, but did you happen to stop and eat at the Southern Kitchen while in New Market?Thefood is pretty good andhas been there forever. I think you handled it the right way.

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