Pulled over by LEO in Shenandoah County

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Citizen wrote:

T Dubya wrote:

SNIP This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

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Formal,written, harshcomplaint.

With a bit of ridicule thrown in.

As mentioned by theposter above, once demanded, you hadto supply the CHP. You were under no obligation to answer any questions about location (5th Amendment), but since US vs Baker[sup]1[/sup] pretty much lets the cops seize guns during a traffic stop, you might as well have told him where the gun was, or risk being ordered out thevehicle and the vehicle searched.

So, the main point of the complaint will be to slam home thelack of a duty to notify in VA.Maybe also write a little letter to the editor of the New Market newspaper to embarrass them into being a little more professional.


1. US V Baker http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf

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One, you have to show the CHP, but if you said you did not have it because you were not CCing what could the officer do???

He has no reason to suspect you are armed unless you tell him. Does the law allow him to assume that because you have a CHP ???

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Neplusultra wrote:

Citizen wrote:

T Dubya wrote:

SNIP This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

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Formal,written, harshcomplaint.

With a bit of ridicule thrown in.

As mentioned by theposter above, once demanded, you hadto supply the CHP. You were under no obligation to answer any questions about location (5th Amendment), but since US vs Baker[suP]1[/suP] pretty much lets the cops seize guns during a traffic stop, you might as well have told him where the gun was, or risk being ordered out thevehicle and the vehicle searched.

So, the main point of the complaint will be to slam home thelack of a duty to notify in VA.Maybe also write a little letter to the editor of the New Market newspaper to embarrass them into being a little more professional.


1. US V Baker http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/955287.P.pdf

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One, you have to show the CHP, but if you said you did not have it because you were not CCing what could the officer do???

He has no reason to suspect you are armed unless you tell him. Does the law allow him to assume that because you have a CHP ???

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We've been through this conversation before, Ne.

I'm not going to argue this with you. Read Baker. Its about traffic stops. It treatstraffic stops different than foot stops. Wanta bet the 4th Circuit will uphold that the CHP on the DMV return gives sufficient suspicion?

Want a rogue cop to search the car and then try to sue him in court over it? Where the law may not be totally settled? Where the cop can claim good-faith?

This is not a fight I would choose. Not with Baker as precedent.

If I really wanted to refuse, I would answer the question after refusing consent, "Officer, I do not consent to telling you the location of my firearm, but since you have demanded it in a way that makes me think compliance may be compelled, I will tell you..." If any criminal charges develop, you may be able to claim submission to authority.

Or, perhaps, politely refuse, as a 4A matter, to answer the question, and re-check if he isstilldemanding it. Thenkick in the submission-to-authority disclaimer, "...while I do not consent to telling you, I will answer your question since you have asked in away that makes me thinkyou will search the car over top of my refused consent." Or some such phrasing.

The key point being to preserve your 4A rights against search and seizure, rather than waive them by consent.

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T Dubya wrote:

I traveled back to Richmond today, but on my way back through Shenandoah County I made sure to read every historical marker I spotted Friday night. There are a pile of historic markers on that stretch of highway.

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I don't know if it's complete, but this site has a searchable database of the Virginia Historical Highway Markers. Handy.

TFred

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peter nap wrote:

Milbars wrote:

I gotta tell ya Peter, coming from a Michigan boy, those are some real nice pictures.  I'd love to live in a place like that for the rest of my days but I married a city girl so some compromises must be made.  Looks like a very beautiful area!

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That's what Old Va is all about Milbars. If we don'r preserve our rural heritage, another generation will see it completely gone.

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+1 on that. The Valley as a whole is beautiful, and the history is rich. Seems like the Yankees just keep finding there way back though, as evidenced by the rapid expansion of "northern virginia" and associated suburbs. A northern "army" of different sorts...

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Off topic, but did you happen to stop and eat at the Southern Kitchen while in New Market?Thefood is pretty good andhas been there forever. I think you handled it the right way.

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Citizen wrote:

I'm not going to argue this with you. Read Baker. Its about traffic stops. It treatstraffic stops different than foot stops. Wanta bet the 4th Circuit will uphold that the CHP on the DMV return gives sufficient suspicion?

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Because lawfully carrying in a car is different than lawfully carrying on foot?

Not to argue with YOU, Citizen, but the logic of that escapes me. Perhaps you are simply reiterating judicial "logic".

That Wisconsin judge just recently set an exceptional precedent, if we can capitalize on it. Simply being in possession of a firearm, openly, does not present sufficient authorization to stop. Applying that logic to the other situation, simply being pulled over for a traffic violation and being discovered to be lawfully ABLE to conceal-carry does not seem to pass the logic test (in my mind) for demanding ones permit.

Would the courts see it differently? It appears possible by Baker. I'm just saying it sounds squirreley when I try to wrap my head around it, that's all.

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peter nap wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

peter nap wrote:

One last thing are danger signs. While most people at the base of the mountain are fine folks, some, most descendants of that no account George Custer who raided the valley during the war of Northern Aggression, are perverts.

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Would you be taken terribly aback if I told you I have a newfound appreciation for the cut of your jib, sir?

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I'll tell you something that only families that go way back in the area know...and people that read my news

When Custer came through it was to destroy all supplies. We didn't have any troops there. Just women and Children and a few old men. He burned and stole everything in sight. Stole a gold watch from us.

Anyway, news was slow in getting around then and it took a few week for Little Bighorn to get to the area. When it did, the entire Shenandoah area had a big party. Some still do there on Custer Is Dead Day.

This is where I was born.
The Shenandoah River was our front yard.

This

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I read your post this morning before leaving for work, then ran across the following article in the Harrisonburg paper at lunch today. The timing was too much and wanted to point it out to you.

A ‘Burning' History
Heatwole's Novel Of Valley Torching Inspires Man To Make Documentary

http://www.dnronline.com/news_details.php?AID=40726&CHID=2

Stan

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wylde007 wrote:

Citizen wrote:

I'm not going to argue this with you. Read Baker. Its about traffic stops. It treatstraffic stops different than foot stops. Wanta bet the 4th Circuit will uphold that the CHP on the DMV return gives sufficient suspicion?

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SNIP Because lawfully carrying in a car is different than lawfully carrying on foot?

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Of course it is squirrelly. The point isn't whether it fits founding principles, the point is the law and latitudes arising therefrom, both for the cop and the carrier. Which is the direction NePlusUltra was headed--"what can the cop do?"

Has a court ever ruled that a CHP is sufficient to justify a car search? I doubt it. These matters are criminal in nature, thecourts are ruling on criminal cases. You just don't see very many CHPers in criminal court in connection with a search arising from their CHP. So, I doubt there are any VA cases where an appellate court has ruled that a CHP computer return does or does not give sufficient suspicion to...(insert list here).

Since there isn't any case law (I'm thinking), any court is going to fall back to whatever precedent exists, or whatever it issteered to by the state. Or invent new--which too often sides with the government.

Its just not a fight I would expect to be able to win--refusing to show a CHP during a traffic stop when demanded after a computer return. Too much advantage to the government.

Just think through some scenarios on how it might play out during the traffic stop.

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Citizen wrote:

Its just not a fight I would expect to be able to win--refusing to show a CHP during a traffic stop when demanded after a computer return. Too much advantage to the government.

Just think through some scenarios on how it might play out during the traffic stop.

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Thing is... if I'm OC and I left my CHP at home, I *cannot* show it to him. Simple rules of reality prevent me from doing so. So in such a case, he can demand all he wants. I won't comply because I can't. If that upsets the officer, that is the officer's problem, not mine. I cannot present what I do not have.

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darthmord wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Its just not a fight I would expect to be able to win--refusing to show a CHP during a traffic stop when demanded after a computer return. Too much advantage to the government.

Just think through some scenarios on how it might play out during the traffic stop.

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Thing is... if I'm OC and I left my CHP at home, I *cannot* show it to him. Simple rules of reality prevent me from doing so. So in such a case, he can demand all he wants. I won't comply because I can't. If that upsets the officer, that is the officer's problem, not mine. I cannot present what I do not have.

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I think we skipped a groove somewhere.

We're talking about CC during a traffic stop. According to 18.2-308H, you are only required to have and show the CHP while CCing.

If the cop wants notification while you are OCing, he's an idiot. The damn gun is visible. Just let some cop pull the "you didn't notify" lecture on an OCd gun in a traffic stop. By the time I'm done with the formal complaint, he'll have a new nickname in the PD locker room. Something along the lines of "Blindman."

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Citizen wrote:

darthmord wrote:

Citizen wrote:

Its just not a fight I would expect to be able to win--refusing to show a CHP during a traffic stop when demanded after a computer return. Too much advantage to the government.

Just think through some scenarios on how it might play out during the traffic stop.

Click to expand...

Thing is... if I'm OC and I left my CHP at home, I *cannot* show it to him. Simple rules of reality prevent me from doing so. So in such a case, he can demand all he wants. I won't comply because I can't. If that upsets the officer, that is the officer's problem, not mine. I cannot present what I do not have.

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I think we skipped a groove somewhere.

We're talking about CC during a traffic stop. According to 18.2-308H, you are only required to have and show the CHP while CCing.

If the cop wants notification while you are OCing, he's an idiot. The damn gun is visible. Just let some cop pull the "you didn't notify" lecture on an OCd gun in a traffic stop. By the time I'm done with the formal complaint, he'll have a new nickname in the PD locker room. Something along the lines of "Blindman."

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In the OP T Dubya doesn't say if he was CC or not only that the Officer demanded to see his CHP and location of gun, after running his DL and Registration. Wether OC or no carry either one he would not have to have CHP with him. This is another case where Voice Recorder would be good.

Emphasis and color added.

T Dubya wrote:

I was traveling Friday night to a town called Woodstock in Shenandoah County. I was pulled over in a small town in Shenandoah County called New Marketbecause of suspician of DUI. I hadn't had a drop to drink. I drive a big ol' truck and I wasreading every sign to make sure I wasn't lost while constantly scanning my instrument panel to make sure I wasmaintaining thespeed limit.I have a tendancy to float a little when I read every sign, especially in the mountains on roads I am unfamiliar with; so I don't really have a problem with the officer's reason for checking on me.

What I do have a problem with is the officer demanding my CHP and the location of my pistol after he ran my license and registration. I informed him that there is no duty to inform in Virginia. He told me that there was. I felt like things would go bad if I didn't comply so I handed him my permit and told him where my pistol was. I know I was right and after I complied I attempted to educate him. He wasn't having any of it.

This was clearly wrong. How should I handle this?

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Wolf_shadow wrote:

SNIP [last post]

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Yes.

We were following a side-line begun by NePlusUltra a few posts up.

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peter nap wrote:

wylde007 wrote:

peter nap wrote:

One last thing are danger signs. While most people at the base of the mountain are fine folks, some, most descendants of that no account George Custer who raided the valley during the war of Northern Aggression, are perverts.

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Would you be taken terribly aback if I told you I have a newfound appreciation for the cut of your jib, sir?

Click to expand...

I'll tell you something that only families that go way back in the area know...and people that read my news

When Custer came through it was to destroy all supplies. We didn't have any troops there. Just women and Children and a few old men. He burned and stole everything in sight. Stole a gold watch from us.

Anyway, news was slow in getting around then and it took a few week for Little Bighorn to get to the area. When it did, the entire Shenandoah area had a big party. Some still do there on Custer Is Dead Day.

This is where I was born.
The Shenandoah River was our front yard.

This

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I'm trying to remember about asshole Custer hanging a teenage (I beleive mute) boy he thought was a spy.

My GG Grandfather was from Singers Glen and was in the 1st VA Cavalry

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UPDATE:



I called the New Market Police yesterday and left a message for a supervisor to call me. The Chief eventually called me and I talked to him.

I didn't want to put him on the offensive or make him think that I was being too pompus or a know-it-all.

I told him I had no problem with the professionalism, demeanor, or appearance of his officer. I mentioned that I had no issue or gripes about being stopped. I told the chief his officer seemed like a nice man and I enjoyed my visit to New Market and I told the chief I thought it was a nice town.

After the pleasantries I gave the chief my gripe. I told him that in Virginia there is no "duty to inform" and that the only thing I was required by law to do was give the officer my C.H.P. because it was on my person and that is the law. I told him I could tell him the code if he wanted to reference it. He said he had it and that he would reference it.

He didn't say much just listened. After my gripe I wanted to end on a positive so I told him again I liked his town and how nice I thought it was.

The end. I don't know how itwill go from there. Just an FYI I had a pistol under the seat in the back and it would not have been very easy for me to get to unless I stopped and parked my truck to take my seatbelt off to lean back and get it.

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Based upon my reading of relevant case law, that would be considered possession of a concealed weapon. Apparently there are more than a few judges who are quite limber contortionists.

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paramedic70002 wrote:

Apparently there are more than a few judges who are quite limber contortionists.

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Both physically and ethically, no?

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wylde007 wrote:

paramedic70002 wrote:

Apparently there are more than a few judges who are quite limber contortionists.

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Both physically and ethically, no?

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