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Thread: Story of 12031 check, mostly respectful

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    So I decided to run off to Home Depot this afternoon for some errands but upon trying to re-enter my truck, I realized the key had broken off in the ignition, disabling me from entering my truck. Worse yet (or was it better?) I was wearing my service 9mm and a loaded magazine in the opposing pouch. Seeing this to be a fine time to exercise my 2nd Amendment rights, I realized that I was still in California and had to figure out all the necessary legal obstacles.I was (and currently still am) unclear with public transportation and taxi cab travel while carrying and I was in no mood to challenge the law (being sick for the last 3 days, I didn't really feel like a trip downtown if I accidentally overlooked some of their rules) so I used my GPS to check on school zones and discovered that I must walk another 2.2 miles out of the way in order to adhere to these guidelines.

    I had just climbed to the top of a hill on my 6.25 mile walk home to retrieve my keys, breathless and nearly expired when a patrol car passed by. Seconds later another patrol car passed. I heard it slow down behind me and the sirens chirped as it came to a stop. I threw my arms out to the sides (not up, I'm not going to look even TALLER than I already am). "Keep your hands where I can see them!" was his stern order. I had half a mind to make a Napoleon Dynamite flying bird impersonation, but his lack of smile kept my heart beating at a worried tempo.
    "Is there anything wrong officer?" I asked, smiling confidently and keeping my hands far away from my weapon. He then asked me if I always carry a gun, and I said with a nonchalant "No, but I've got a funny story." I continued, "My key busted off in my ignition, so rather than leaving my firearm in the truck, I opted to carry it, and since the lockbox weighs 11lbs, the only legal way to transport it was walking with it open for all to see."

    "Is the gun loaded?" barked the concerned police officer. "Currently, no sir, it is not." "Alright, just sit tight until backup arrives" (he chatters something into the radio) "Do you have any warrants?" The officer asked as the second car rolled up. "No sir, I am not a prohibit person. It would be insanely stupid for me to be open carrying if I have any blemishes on my record." The officer nodded and smiled in agreeing.

    Backup arrived; an officer with braces came up and asked me what I was doing. I said "Walking." He asked where, I replied with a general wave in the direction of the road. "That way." "And where are you coming from?" He asked, notepad out and jotting down everything I said (or didn't say) "Over there, my truck's key broke off in the ignition and I didn't want to leave my pistol. I'm sure you fellows understand."

    Two other patrol cars arrived and I became I was out mobbed by a wall of badges, at least 5-6 officers were present. The original police asked if I was part of "...that open-carry dot org group..." to which Ireplied that I had no affiliation with any group. I am an American, and the Second Amendment guarantees my right to bear arms."

    "Well sir, "said the original police. We are going to have to do a check to see if it is loaded. I can't recall the exact wording, but I answered "I will comply with all ORDERS" and then corrected their laymen's terms and said, "Oh, a 12031 check, sure, to be on my way." I turned around and placed my hands on my head so they could ATTEMPT at retrieving my weapon from its snug holster. "Have you done this before?" one officer asked. I said no, and had he? He answered no (with a laugh). They struggled with the holster and asked if it had any retention clips (I said no, but it's designed for no one but me to draw the gun out except for myself). They pulled my gun out, checked the magazine (empty) and chamber (also empty) and put it on the dash board of a patrol car and started asking questions into the radio.

    The second he put it down onto the car I raised my voice "Is there a problem with my firearm, sir?" He said "No" andthat he was looking at buying a 9mm and was looking at the model number (I didn't want to tell him the serial number was on the BOTTOM, not where he claimed he was looking for model description) My 9mm is a Honda to his current Camaro, What the heck interest does he have he possibly have in an undeniably inferior firearm? The other officer seemed to be trying to cover for his buddy and said they were unsure if I could have an empty magazine in the gun, to which I said that it was not illegal. I asked if there was any law I was breaking because I really would like to be on my way. Officer BraceFace leaned over and whispered something in the other officer's ear and an interest in running the serial number were expressed, at which point I chirped up and said "Sir, I haven't broken any laws and there is no probable cause which suggests that I am, have been or am going to break the law. Under these guidelines, I don't believe you have probable cause. Remember sir, it MUST be reasonable, articulablesuspicion." After this, my gun became a hot potato that no one wanted to touch. They tried to give it back to me but being surrounded by police it was rather difficult to retrieve my weapon. As such, I lifted my hands and leaned my hip over for him to return my firearm but since this officer doubted his ability to insert the firearm (following his inability to effectively draw it) back into my holster, he assured me it was ok to put my hands on it and thus I put my gun back into the holster.

    Immediately after I put my gun away, thebracesofficer asked "Do you mind if I ask for your ID?" (Ah, a tricky fellow, he knew that I had done no wrong and I should have been on my way)."Is there a law that forces me to relinquish my identification if I haven't committed a crime?" I challenged. "There is no law that forces you to relinquish your ID if you have not committed a crime."(He repeated with a partial sigh of impatience, hehe). He then asked again "So, do you mind if I ask for your ID?" "Sir, I do mind, as you just stated that I am not doing anything wrong, and it is my right to be right here right now and I have cooperated in all of the ways I feel are needed to carry out a 12031 check. Am I free to go?""Yes, you are, thank you for your compliance.""And thank you for your time; I'm glad it's been a learning experience for you. Good day"

    I didn't remember to ask for THEIR ID, as it IS our right to be able to identify THEM. They are PUBLIC SERVANTS, serving US, the legal tax payers! Next time all, next time.

    I know I did a few things wrong, but I was very impressed by their knowledge and that I very well could be recording their proceedings. I stood by most of my rights, with the exception of cooperating with their requests, but sometimes a little honey calms the bees down. I informed them of the law when they were hazy, and managed to leave without them cussing under their breath about "radical gun activist nuts". I smiled a lot, but most of them were not completely genuine, except when they showed hits of being human. Great experience, no regrets.

    OK, some question/comments/concerns.

    1) Where was this and which PD was involved? I don't know. Being sick fogged my head


    2) Things that went wrong.

    a) When the sirens chirp, don't throw your arms out. You aren't doing anything illegal and for all you know, they could be stopping a drug addict walking behind you. Until you are ORDERED to do so, don't raise/levitate your hands/arms. Doing so without provocation shows guilt and you have nothing to be guilty for.

    b)Do not tell them where you came from, where you are going to or why you are there, even if it is a general direction. Just say "Somewhere", "Someplace", etc. Remember, they are there to try to arrest you.

    c) Do not help them in any way with pulling your weapon.By me allowing them to struggle with it, it dashed their mighty image and showed they were human, just for a second.


    d)Good job on denying ID and sticking your ground with the serial number thingy.

    e) You need a voice recorder if you are going to carry. No exceptions!


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    Welcome to OCDO! And overall, well done in my opinion.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Welcome!

    Couldn't you have called a friend to come and pick you up?

    Take a friendly witness with you if possible.
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

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    Thanks x2! Its so amazing how it could have gone had I notknown/exercised my rights. Thanks for the support!

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    Thanks for the advice, I was the only one not going to the Dave Matthews Band Concert cause I was sick, so all my friends were in the process of arival. I usualy open-carry with my sister and her friends, but again, dave matttews. Could have I taken a taxi? Bus? Trolly? I most certainly wasnt gonna ask the police for a ride~!

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    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society(w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!



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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    You did an outstanding job here. It sounds like you walked the fine line of protecting your rights while allowing the police to do their job. Bravo!

    You can certainly take a taxi providing that he doesn't drive through a school zone unless you've locked up. A bus might cause more problems for you. It might be perfectly legal for you to carry on a bus but the police response might have been more crazy.

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    PM's inbound.

    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

    NA MALE SUBJ ON FOOT, LS NB 3 AGO HAD A HOLSTERED HANDGUN ON HIS RIGHT HIP. WAS NOT BRANDISHING THE WEAPON, BUT RP FOUND SUSPICIOUS.
    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    me too!

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    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society (w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!

    They can ask but they cannot demand nor seize. See any of my videos or any of my IA writeups for more information.

    http://caopencarry.blogspot.com (Videos link on the right hand side)

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    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society (w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!
    Sounds like you need the waiting period to brush up on your legal knowledge. What law says you have to even own an ID card (let alone possess one at all times)?

    (Please realize my jabs are half-jest; I realize inflection doesn't communicate well in writing. I can't think of a single person here who hasn't at one point repeated gun-shop FUD and then had to eat crow when they couldn't provide a factual citation.)

    The first thing you must learn is that everything you know is wrong. Next, start from scratch and build a factual knowledge base. KNOW the laws you're required to abide by; KNOW your rights and all the things you do not have to do.
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    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right to¬*open carry,¬*Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If not¬*every felon would carry a¬*gun and state "It's¬*my right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!"¬* and then where would be...¬*Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gun¬*unless there's probable cause to check.¬*I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, ¬*but I'm pretty sure they have every right to¬*check who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,¬*must¬*have been their¬*inexperience in dealing with the open¬*carry law.¬* Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society¬*(w/¬*people going "postal") it might be¬*kind of scary to see¬*a guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!¬*
    The police can ask you any question they want (for the most part), but you have the right to refuse to answer them, unless you are legally required to. In the state of California, you are not required to carry identification, or to surrender identification on demand, or to even verbally identify yourself to police. You can choose to do so, at your own peril, but you have the right not to.

    The police, however, do not have the right to detain you any longer than it takes to determine the loaded state of your weapon. That should reasonably last all of 15 seconds. They do not have the right to detain you in order to call in the serial number. That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons. Even if the cops suspect that you may be dangerous, they must be able to articulate reasonable facts that support their suspicion. Simply being armed is not probable cause to believe that someone is also dangerous.

    Any time someone is open carrying, as long as it is not in a prohibited area, and the carrier is not acting in a threatening or otherwise unlawful manner, the police only have the right to demand to briefly inspect the carrier's weapon to determine if it is loaded or unloaded, and if the weapon is unloaded, they are to be discharged to go about their lawful business. The law does not permit the police to demand anything else, or to assume anything else, and any detainment beyond a reasonable time to inspect the weapon is an unreasonable detainment.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

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    Opencarry Larry wrote:
    I didn't remember to ask for THEIR ID, as it IS our right to be able to identify THEM. They are PUBLIC SERVANTS, serving US, the legal tax payers! Next time all, next time.
    [/quote]
    California Peace Officers are required to wear name plates (usually above their right shirt pocket) with at least their first initial and last name. They are also required to have a badge with a number clearly visible (usually in the center at the bottom of the badge). Both were visible to you so no additional ID ofthemselves is required.

    1) Where was this and which PD was involved? I don't know. Being sick fogged my head.
    If you were still in Lemon Grove it was SDSO. If you were not, just look at the uniform. Tan shirt over green pants = SDSO. Blue uniform = SDPD. All tan uniform =LaMesa PD.

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    Old Timer wrote:
    1) Where was this and which PD was involved? I don't know. Being sick fogged my head.
    (If you were still in Lemon Grove it was SDSO. If you were not, just look at the uniform. Tan shirt over green pants = SDSO. Blue uniform = SDPD. All tan uniform =LaMesa PD.)
    [/quote]
    I was walking on Campo road, possibly technically Spring Valley. Im pretty sure I overheard "all available units" so some I believe were Sheriffs, yet I was close enough to the trolley station for one of them to respond as well.I don't believe they were called by civilians, I think the one officer just spotted it as he drove past.

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    Thanks for the great information.......

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    wewd wrote:
    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society(w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!
    The police can ask you any question they want (for the most part), but you have the right to refuse to answer them, unless you are legally required to. In the state of California, you are not required to carry identification, or to surrender identification on demand, or to even verbally identify yourself to police. You can choose to do so, at your own peril, but you have the right not to.

    The police, however, do not have the right to detain you any longer than it takes to determine the loaded state of your weapon. That should reasonably last all of 15 seconds. They do not have the right to detain you in order to call in the serial number. That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons. Even if the cops suspect that you may be dangerous, they must be able to articulate reasonable facts that support their suspicion. Simply being armed is not probable cause to believe that someone is also dangerous.

    Any time someone is open carrying, as long as it is not in a prohibited area, and the carrier is not acting in a threatening or otherwise unlawful manner, the police only have the right to demand to briefly inspect the carrier's weapon to determine if it is loaded or unloaded, and if the weapon is unloaded, they are to be discharged to go about their lawful business. The law does not permit the police to demand anything else, or to assume anything else, and any detainment beyond a reasonable time to inspect the weapon is an unreasonable detainment.
    Thanks.....for the information "WEWD" and "CA Libertarian"! CA Libertarian you almost knocked me down with those half Jabs. haha but thanks for all the info and I will look more into that law.

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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society (w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!
    Sounds like you need the waiting period to brush up on your legal knowledge. What law says you have to even own an ID card (let alone possess one at all times)?

    (Please realize my jabs are half-jest; I realize inflection doesn't communicate well in writing. I can't think of a single person here who hasn't at one point repeated gun-shop FUD and then had to eat crow when they couldn't provide a factual citation.)

    The first thing you must learn is that everything you know is wrong. Next, start from scratch and build a factual knowledge base. KNOW the laws you're required to abide by; KNOW your rights and all the things you do not have to do.
    Thanks.....for the information "WEWD" and "CA Libertarian"! CA Libertarian you almost knocked me down with those half Jabs. haha but thanks for all the info and I will look more into that law

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    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    GunPride wrote:
    Wow....I'm sure you were probably sweating like a pig! Thinking what is going on?? Even though it's your right toopen carry,Law Enforcement have the right to ask for identification to identify who you are and make sure you can "legally" carry it. Now if you don't want to give them your ID that is another story, but If notevery felon would carry agun and state "It'smy right to carry and I don't have to give you any ID!" and then where would be...Our country would not be safe! Maybe the Law Enforcement Officers hadn't had the experience with "Open Carry" individuals. And what I have heard, Law Enforcement Officers don't have the right to check the serial numbers on the gununless there's probable cause to check.I don't know how Law Enforcement found out that you were carrying or if they just saw you walking with the gun on your hip, but I'm pretty sure they have every right tocheck who you are. Honestly, I'm surprised they didn't push foward to get your ID,musthave been theirinexperience in dealing with the opencarry law. Even though you were just walking doing nothing, the general public and Law Enforcement Officers don't know who you are and in today's society (w/people going "postal") it might bekind of scary to seea guy carrying a gun in public. Anyway, I can't wait to get my gun!!

    They can ask but they cannot demand nor seize. See any of my videos or any of my IA writeups for more information.

    http://caopencarry.blogspot.com (Videos link on the right hand side)
    Thanks for the info.....

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    wewd wrote:
    The police can ask you any question they want (for the most part), but you have the right to refuse to answer them, unless you are legally required to. In the state of California, you are not required to carry identification, or to surrender identification on demand, or to even verbally identify yourself to police. You can choose to do so, at your own peril, but you have the right not to.

    The police, however, do not have the right to detain you any longer than it takes to determine the loaded state of your weapon. That should reasonably last all of 15 seconds. They do not have the right to detain you in order to call in the serial number. That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons. Even if the cops suspect that you may be dangerous, they must be able to articulate reasonable facts that support their suspicion. Simply being armed is not probable cause to believe that someone is also dangerous.

    Any time someone is open carrying, as long as it is not in a prohibited area, and the carrier is not acting in a threatening or otherwise unlawful manner, the police only have the right to demand to briefly inspect the carrier's weapon to determine if it is loaded or unloaded, and if the weapon is unloaded, they are to be discharged to go about their lawful business. The law does not permit the police to demand anything else, or to assume anything else, and any detainment beyond a reasonable time to inspect the weapon is an unreasonable detainment.
    Cites, please.

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    Fairfax Co., VA
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    Opencarry Larry wrote:
    So I decided to run off to Home Depot this afternoon for some errands but upon trying to re-enter my truck,...
    On a quick read-through, you seem to have done pretty well. Very well compared to some who pretty much complied with everything.

    One thing that stands out, as you have already hinted at, is to talk less.

    Here are some videos that will help illustrate the point:

    Busted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA



    Talking to Police: http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/



    Here is a website with lots of useful info about rights: http://www.flexyourrights.com/


    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  22. #22
    Regular Member wewd's Avatar
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    May 2009
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    Oregon
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    Citizen wrote:
    Cites, please.
    California Penal Code 12025:
    (a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
    he or she does any of the following:
    (1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
    control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person.
    (2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
    or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
    (3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
    or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person.
    (b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
    punishable, as follows:
    (1) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
    or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.
    (2) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
    reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.
    (3) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
    gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
    Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
    (commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

    (4) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
    as defined in this section, or the person is within a class of
    persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to
    Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
    Welfare and Institutions Code, as a felony.
    (5) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a
    person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by
    imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county
    jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand
    dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
    (6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
    county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
    thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
    both of the following conditions are met:
    (A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
    concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
    being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
    possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
    pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
    the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

    (B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
    pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
    registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
    of being concealed upon the person.
    (7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to
    (6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one
    year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
    both that imprisonment and fine.
    (c) A peace officer may arrest a person for a violation of
    paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) if the peace officer has probable
    cause to believe that the person is not listed with the Department of
    Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section
    11106 as the registered owner of the pistol, revolver, or other
    firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, and one or more
    of the conditions in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (6) of subdivision
    (b) is met.
    (d) (1) Every person convicted under this section who previously
    has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section
    12001.6 shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for at
    least three months and not exceeding six months, or, if granted
    probation, or if the execution or imposition of sentence is
    suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be
    imprisoned in a county jail for at least three months.
    (2) Every person convicted under this section who has previously
    been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by this
    chapter, if probation is granted, or if the execution or imposition
    of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or
    she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.
    (e) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence as
    specified in subdivision (d), except in unusual cases where the
    interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or
    suspending the imposition or execution of sentence without the
    minimum imprisonment required in subdivision (d) or by granting
    probation or suspending the imposition or execution of sentence with
    conditions other than those set forth in subdivision (d), in which
    case, the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the
    minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice
    would best be served by that disposition.
    (f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
    within the meaning of this section.
    (g) For purposes of this section, "lawful possession of the
    firearm" means that the person who has possession or custody of the
    firearm either lawfully owns the firearm or has the permission of the
    lawful owner or a person who otherwise has apparent authority to
    possess or have custody of the firearm. A person who takes a firearm
    without the permission of the lawful owner or without the permission
    of a person who has lawful custody of the firearm does not have
    lawful possession of the firearm.
    (h) (1) The district attorney of each county shall submit annually
    a report on or before June 30, to the Attorney General consisting of
    profiles by race, age, gender, and ethnicity of any person charged
    with a felony or a misdemeanor under this section and any other
    offense charged in the same complaint, indictment, or information.
    (2) The Attorney General shall submit annually, a report on or
    before December 31, to the Legislature compiling all of the reports
    submitted pursuant to paragraph (1).
    (3) This subdivision shall remain operative until January 1, 2005,
    and as of that date shall be repealed.
    California Penal Code 12031:
    (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
    (2) Carrying a loaded firearm in violation of this section is
    punishable, as follows:
    (A) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
    or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.
    (B) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
    reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.
    (C) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
    gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
    Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
    (commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

    (D) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
    as defined in this section, or is within a class of persons
    prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section
    12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare
    and Institutions Code, as a felony.
    (E) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a
    person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by
    imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county
    jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand
    dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
    (F) Where the person is not listed with the Department of Justice
    pursuant to Section 11106, as the registered owner of the pistol,
    revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
    person, by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
    county jail not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed one
    thousand dollars ($1,000), or both that fine and imprisonment.
    (G) In all cases other than those specified in subparagraphs (A)
    to (F), inclusive, as a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a
    county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
    thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
    (3) For purposes of this section, "lawful possession of the
    firearm" means that the person who has possession or custody of the
    firearm either lawfully acquired and lawfully owns the firearm or has
    the permission of the lawful owner or person who otherwise has
    apparent authority to possess or have custody of the firearm. A
    person who takes a firearm without the permission of the lawful owner
    or without the permission of a person who has lawful custody of the
    firearm does not have lawful possession of the firearm.
    (4) Nothing in this section shall preclude prosecution under
    Sections 12021 and 12021.1 of this code, Section 8100 or 8103 of the
    Welfare and Institutions Code, or any other law with a greater
    penalty than this section.
    (5) (A) Notwithstanding paragraphs (2) and (3) of subdivision (a)
    of Section 836, a peace officer may make an arrest without a warrant:

    (i) When the person arrested has violated this section, although
    not in the officer's presence.
    (ii) Whenever the officer has reasonable cause to believe that the
    person to be arrested has violated this section, whether or not this
    section has, in fact, been violated.
    (B) A peace officer may arrest a person for a violation of
    subparagraph (F) of paragraph (2), if the peace officer has probable
    cause to believe that the person is carrying a loaded pistol,
    revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person
    in violation of this section and that person is not listed with the
    Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of
    Section 11106 as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or
    other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
    (6) (A) Every person convicted under this section who has
    previously been convicted of an offense enumerated in Section
    12001.6, or of any crime made punishable under this chapter, shall
    serve a term of at least three months in a county jail, or, if
    granted probation or if the execution or imposition of sentence is
    suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be
    imprisoned for a period of at least three months.
    (B) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence except
    in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served
    by granting probation or suspending the imposition or execution of
    sentence without the minimum imprisonment required in this
    subdivision or by granting probation or suspending the imposition or
    execution of sentence with conditions other than those set forth in
    this subdivision, in which case, the court shall specify on the
    record and shall enter on the minutes the circumstances indicating
    that the interests of justice would best be served by that
    disposition.
    (7) A violation of this section which is punished by imprisonment
    in a county jail not exceeding one year shall not constitute a
    conviction of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding
    one year for the purposes of determining federal firearms
    eligibility under Section 922(g)(1) of Title 18 of the United States
    Code.
    (b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following:
    (1) Peace officers listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or
    subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, whether active or honorably
    retired, other duly appointed peace officers, honorably retired peace
    officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, other honorably
    retired peace officers who during the course and scope of their
    employment as peace officers were authorized to, and did, carry
    firearms, full-time paid peace officers of other states and the
    federal government who are carrying out official duties while in
    California, or any person summoned by any of those officers to assist
    in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is
    actually engaged in assisting that officer. Any peace officer
    described in this paragraph who has been honorably retired shall be
    issued an identification certificate by the law enforcement agency
    from which the officer has retired. The issuing agency may charge a
    fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the agency
    in issuing certificates pursuant to this paragraph and paragraph
    (3).
    Any officer, except an officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
    subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section
    830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have an endorsement
    on the identification certificate stating that the issuing agency
    approves the officer's carrying of a loaded firearm.
    No endorsement or renewal endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph
    (2) shall be effective unless it is in the format set forth in
    subparagraph (D) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
    12027, except that any peace officer listed in subdivision (f) of
    Section 830.2 or in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, who is retired
    between January 2, 1981, and on or before December 31, 1988, and who
    is authorized to carry a loaded firearm pursuant to this section,
    shall not be required to have an endorsement in the format set forth
    in subparagraph (D) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
    12027 until the time of the issuance, on or after January 1, 1989, of
    a renewal endorsement pursuant to paragraph (2).
    (2) A retired peace officer, except an officer listed in Section
    830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
    of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall
    petition the issuing agency for renewal of his or her privilege to
    carry a loaded firearm every five years. An honorably retired peace
    officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section
    830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 who retired prior to
    January 1, 1981, shall not be required to obtain an endorsement from
    the issuing agency to carry a loaded firearm. The agency from which
    a peace officer is honorably retired may, upon initial retirement of
    the peace officer, or at any time subsequent thereto, deny or revoke
    for good cause the retired officer's privilege to carry a loaded
    firearm. A peace officer who is listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
    subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section
    830.5 who is retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have his or her
    privilege to carry a loaded firearm denied or revoked by having the
    agency from which the officer retired stamp on the officer's
    identification certificate "No CCW privilege."
    (3) An honorably retired peace officer who is listed in
    subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 and authorized to carry loaded
    firearms by this subdivision shall meet the training requirements of
    Section 832 and shall qualify with the firearm at least annually.
    The individual retired peace officer shall be responsible for
    maintaining his or her eligibility to carry a loaded firearm. The
    Department of Justice shall provide subsequent arrest notification
    pursuant to Section 11105.2 regarding honorably retired peace
    officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 to the agency
    from which the officer has retired.
    (4) Members of the military forces of this state or of the United
    States engaged in the performance of their duties.
    (5) Persons who are using target ranges for the purpose of
    practice shooting with a firearm or who are members of shooting clubs
    while hunting on the premises of those clubs.
    (6) The carrying of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
    of being concealed upon the person by persons who are authorized to
    carry those weapons pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section
    12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
    (7) Armored vehicle guards, as defined in Section 7521 of the
    Business and Professions Code, (A) if hired prior to January 1, 1977,
    or (B) if hired on or after that date, if they have received a
    firearms qualification card from the Department of Consumer Affairs,
    in each case while acting within the course and scope of their
    employment.
    (8) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they
    reside, honorably retired federal officers or agents of federal law
    enforcement agencies, including, but not limited to, the Federal
    Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, the United States
    Customs Service, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
    Firearms, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the Drug Enforcement
    Administration, the United States Border Patrol, and officers or
    agents of the Internal Revenue Service who were authorized to carry
    weapons while on duty, who were assigned to duty within the state for
    a period of not less than one year, or who retired from active
    service in the state.
    Retired federal officers or agents shall provide the sheriff with
    certification from the agency from which they retired certifying
    their service in the state, the nature of their retirement, and
    indicating the agency's concurrence that the retired federal officer
    or agent should be accorded the privilege of carrying a loaded
    firearm.
    Upon approval, the sheriff shall issue a permit to the retired
    federal officer or agent indicating that he or she may carry a loaded
    firearm in accordance with this paragraph. The permit shall be
    valid for a period not exceeding five years, shall be carried by the
    retiree while carrying a loaded firearm, and may be revoked for good
    cause.
    The sheriff of the county in which the retired federal officer or
    agent resides may require recertification prior to a permit renewal,
    and may suspend the privilege for cause. The sheriff may charge a
    fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the
    county.
    (c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have completed a regular course in firearms training approved by the
    Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training:
    (1) Patrol special police officers appointed by the police
    commission of any city, county, or city and county under the express
    terms of its charter who also, under the express terms of the
    charter, (A) are subject to suspension or dismissal after a hearing
    on charges duly filed with the commission after a fair and impartial
    trial, (B) are not less than 18 years of age or more than 40 years of
    age, (C) possess physical qualifications prescribed by the
    commission, and (D) are designated by the police commission as the
    owners of a certain beat or territory as may be fixed from time to
    time by the police commission.
    (2) The carrying of weapons by animal control officers or
    zookeepers, regularly compensated as such by a governmental agency
    when acting in the course and scope of their employment and when
    designated by a local ordinance or, if the governmental agency is not
    authorized to act by ordinance, by a resolution, either individually
    or by class, to carry the weapons, or by persons who are authorized
    to carry the weapons pursuant to Section 14502 of the Corporations
    Code, while actually engaged in the performance of their duties
    pursuant to that section.
    (3) Harbor police officers designated pursuant to Section 663.5 of
    the Harbors and Navigation Code.
    (d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
    have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The
    certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace
    officer, who has completed all training required by law for the
    exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed
    while not on duty as a peace officer.
    (1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
    financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
    shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
    bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.
    (2) Guards of contract carriers operating armored vehicles
    pursuant to California Highway Patrol and Public Utilities Commission
    authority (A) if hired prior to January 1, 1977, or (B) if hired on
    or after January 1, 1977, if they have completed a course in the
    carrying and use of firearms which meets the standards prescribed by
    the Department of Consumer Affairs.
    (3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are
    licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of,
    and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6
    (commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and
    Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their
    employment.
    (4) Uniformed security guards or night watch persons employed by
    any public agency, while acting within the scope and course of their
    employment.
    (5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated
    in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and
    uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while
    actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their
    employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their
    places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route
    to or from their residences or employer-required range training.
    Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit cities and
    counties from enacting ordinances requiring alarm agents to register
    their names.
    (6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators and private
    investigators licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with
    Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code,
    while acting within the course and scope of their employment.
    (e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
    the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
    to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
    Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
    this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
    this section.
    (f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place
    where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
    this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
    consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
    shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
    not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
    attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
    deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
    charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
    (h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
    any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
    officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
    purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
    within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
    possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
    property.
    (i) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from carrying
    a loaded firearm in an area within an incorporated city while
    engaged in hunting, provided that the hunting at that place and time
    is not prohibited by the city council.
    (j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
    carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
    otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
    person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
    immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
    necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
    in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
    after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
    been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
    assistance.
    (2) A violation of this section is justifiable when a person who
    possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave
    danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current
    restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons
    who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or
    safety. This paragraph may not apply when the circumstances involve
    a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing
    with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a
    specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent
    of the Legislature to limit, restrict, or narrow the application of
    current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other
    justifications to defendants charged with violating Section 12025 or
    of committing other similar offenses.
    Upon trial for violating this section, the trier of fact shall
    determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief
    that he or she was in grave danger.
    (k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
    of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
    or attempting to make a lawful arrest.
    (l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
    loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
    residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.
    (m) (1) The district attorney of each county shall submit annually
    a report on or before June 30, to the Attorney General consisting of
    profiles by race, age, gender, and ethnicity of any person charged
    with a felony or a misdemeanor under this section and any other
    offense charged in the same complaint, indictment, or information.
    (2) The Attorney General shall submit annually, a report on or
    before December 31, to the Legislature compiling all of the reports
    submitted pursuant to paragraph (1).
    (3) This subdivision shall remain operative only until January 1,
    2005.
    First Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Second Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
    Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
    Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
    Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
    The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
    I think that about covers it as far as the law is concerned. There are of course numerous court cases but I don't have an extensive list of those handy right now. Some of the most important ones are Terry v. Ohio (SCOTUS), Florida v. J.L. (SCOTUS), People v. Clark (CA), St. John v. McColley, et. al. (NM) to name a few. That should get you started.
    Do you want to enjoy liberty in your lifetime?

    Consider moving to New Hampshire as part of the Free State Project.

    "Live Free or Die"

  23. #23
    Founder's Club Member
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    Fairfax Co., VA
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    18,766

    Post imported post

    wewd wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Cites, please.
    SNIP California Penal Code 12025...[entire post]
    Wewd,

    I count about fourteen statements of law in the your post for which I requested cites, give or take some that combine with others.

    I don't need to "get started". As a long time member and avid 4th Amendment student, I already know whether your statements are true and most of the cases that would be cited.

    The cites request was for new guys, as I mentioned.

    You do no one any favors by declaring the law without citation or quote. New readers have no way to evaluate the accuracy.

    If you do not have time for extensive quotes and citations, perhaps just selecting one or two relevant points to cite and quote would be the way to go.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

  24. #24
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Sons of Liberty's Avatar
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    Mar 2009
    Location
    Riverside, California, USA
    Posts
    638

    Post imported post

    Citizen wrote:
    wewd wrote:
    Citizen wrote:
    Cites, please.
    SNIP California Penal Code 12025...[entire post]
    Wewd,

    I count about fourteen statements of law in the your post for which I requested cites, give or take some that combine with others.

    I don't need to "get started". As a long time member and avid 4th Amendment student, I already know whether your statements are true and most of the cases that would be cited.

    The cites request was for new guys, as I mentioned.

    You do no one any favors by declaring the law without citation or quote. New readers have no way to evaluate the accuracy.

    If you do not have time for extensive quotes and citations, perhaps just selecting one or two relevant points to cite and quote would be the way to go.
    I agree that citing is a practice with many benefits; not just for new posters but also for those who respond. After awhile, repetitious citing enables a memory to be embedded in your mind. You may surprise yourself what you can quote when on the street without the aid of a computer and Internet.

    This is one thing I have always appreciated about this forum!
    Clinging to God & Guns: The Constitution Restoration Project

  25. #25
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    wewd wrote:
    The police can ask you any question they want (for the most part), but you have the right to refuse to answer them, unless you are legally required to. In the state of California, you are not required to carry identification, or to surrender identification on demand, or to even verbally identify yourself to police. You can choose to do so, at your own peril, but you have the right not to.
    Kolender v. Lawson made California's old stop and ID statute disappear.

    The police, however, do not have the right to detain you any longer than it takes to determine the loaded state of your weapon. That should reasonably last all of 15 seconds. They do not have the right to detain you in order to call in the serial number.
    Coolidge v. New Hampshire says, "Under certain circumstances, the police may, without a warrant seize, evidence in 'plain view,' though not for that reason alone, and only when the discovery of the evidence is inadvertent." Arizona v. Hicks says, "Probable cause is required to invoke the 'plain view' doctrine as it applies to seizures."

    That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons.
    Not sure about the citations for these.

    Even if the cops suspect that you may be dangerous, they must be able to articulate reasonable facts that support their suspicion. Simply being armed is not probable cause to believe that someone is also dangerous.
    Terry v. Ohio, Florida v. JL.

    Any time someone is open carrying, as long as it is not in a prohibited area, and the carrier is not acting in a threatening or otherwise unlawful manner, the police only have the right to demand to briefly inspect the carrier's weapon to determine if it is loaded or unloaded, and if the weapon is unloaded, they are to be discharged to go about their lawful business. The law does not permit the police to demand anything else, or to assume anything else, and any detainment beyond a reasonable time to inspect the weapon is an unreasonable detainment.
    12031(e)

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