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Story of 12031 check, mostly respectful

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

Opencarry Larry wrote:
So I decided to run off to Home Depot this afternoon for some errands but upon trying to re-enter my truck,...
On a quick read-through, you seem to have done pretty well. Very well compared to some who pretty much complied with everything.

One thing that stands out, as you have already hinted at, is to talk less.

Here are some videos that will help illustrate the point:

Busted: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA



Talking to Police: http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/



Here is a website with lots of useful info about rights: http://www.flexyourrights.com/
 

wewd

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
664
Location
Oregon
imported post

Citizen wrote:
Cites, please.

California Penal Code 12025:
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when
he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her
control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver,
or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he
or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(b) Carrying a concealed firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:
(1) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.
(2) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.
(3) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
(commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

(4) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
as defined in this section, or the person is within a class of
persons prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to
Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, as a felony.
(5) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a
person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by
imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county
jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
(6) By imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment if
both of the following conditions are met:
(A) Both the pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being
concealed upon the person and the unexpended ammunition capable of
being discharged from that firearm are either in the immediate
possession of the person or readily accessible to that person, or the
pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon
the person is loaded as defined in subdivision (g) of Section 12031.

(B) The person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section 11106, as the
registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable
of being concealed upon the person.
(7) In all cases other than those specified in paragraphs (1) to
(6), inclusive, by imprisonment in a county jail not to exceed one
year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by
both that imprisonment and fine.
(c) A peace officer may arrest a person for a violation of
paragraph (6) of subdivision (b) if the peace officer has probable
cause to believe that the person is not listed with the Department of
Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of Section
11106 as the registered owner of the pistol, revolver, or other
firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, and one or more
of the conditions in subparagraph (A) of paragraph (6) of subdivision
(b) is met.
(d) (1) Every person convicted under this section who previously
has been convicted of a misdemeanor offense enumerated in Section
12001.6 shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail for at
least three months and not exceeding six months, or, if granted
probation, or if the execution or imposition of sentence is
suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be
imprisoned in a county jail for at least three months.
(2) Every person convicted under this section who has previously
been convicted of any felony, or of any crime made punishable by this
chapter, if probation is granted, or if the execution or imposition
of sentence is suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or
she be imprisoned in a county jail for not less than three months.
(e) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence as
specified in subdivision (d), except in unusual cases where the
interests of justice would best be served by granting probation or
suspending the imposition or execution of sentence without the
minimum imprisonment required in subdivision (d) or by granting
probation or suspending the imposition or execution of sentence with
conditions other than those set forth in subdivision (d), in which
case, the court shall specify on the record and shall enter on the
minutes the circumstances indicating that the interests of justice
would best be served by that disposition.
(f) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed
within the meaning of this section.
(g) For purposes of this section, "lawful possession of the
firearm" means that the person who has possession or custody of the
firearm either lawfully owns the firearm or has the permission of the
lawful owner or a person who otherwise has apparent authority to
possess or have custody of the firearm. A person who takes a firearm
without the permission of the lawful owner or without the permission
of a person who has lawful custody of the firearm does not have
lawful possession of the firearm.
(h) (1) The district attorney of each county shall submit annually
a report on or before June 30, to the Attorney General consisting of
profiles by race, age, gender, and ethnicity of any person charged
with a felony or a misdemeanor under this section and any other
offense charged in the same complaint, indictment, or information.
(2) The Attorney General shall submit annually, a report on or
before December 31, to the Legislature compiling all of the reports
submitted pursuant to paragraph (1).
(3) This subdivision shall remain operative until January 1, 2005,
and as of that date shall be repealed.

California Penal Code 12031:
(a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
(2) Carrying a loaded firearm in violation of this section is
punishable, as follows:
(A) Where the person previously has been convicted of any felony,
or of any crime made punishable by this chapter, as a felony.
(B) Where the firearm is stolen and the person knew or had
reasonable cause to believe that it was stolen, as a felony.
(C) Where the person is an active participant in a criminal street
gang, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 186.22, under the
Street Terrorism Enforcement and Prevention Act (Chapter 11
(commencing with Section 186.20) of Title 7 of Part 1), as a felony.

(D) Where the person is not in lawful possession of the firearm,
as defined in this section, or is within a class of persons
prohibited from possessing or acquiring a firearm pursuant to Section
12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare
and Institutions Code, as a felony.
(E) Where the person has been convicted of a crime against a
person or property, or of a narcotics or dangerous drug violation, by
imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a county
jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
(F) Where the person is not listed with the Department of Justice
pursuant to Section 11106, as the registered owner of the pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the
person, by imprisonment in the state prison, or by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, or by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or both that fine and imprisonment.
(G) In all cases other than those specified in subparagraphs (A)
to (F), inclusive, as a misdemeanor, punishable by imprisonment in a
county jail not to exceed one year, by a fine not to exceed one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that imprisonment and fine.
(3) For purposes of this section, "lawful possession of the
firearm" means that the person who has possession or custody of the
firearm either lawfully acquired and lawfully owns the firearm or has
the permission of the lawful owner or person who otherwise has
apparent authority to possess or have custody of the firearm. A
person who takes a firearm without the permission of the lawful owner
or without the permission of a person who has lawful custody of the
firearm does not have lawful possession of the firearm.
(4) Nothing in this section shall preclude prosecution under
Sections 12021 and 12021.1 of this code, Section 8100 or 8103 of the
Welfare and Institutions Code, or any other law with a greater
penalty than this section.
(5) (A) Notwithstanding paragraphs (2) and (3) of subdivision (a)
of Section 836, a peace officer may make an arrest without a warrant:

(i) When the person arrested has violated this section, although
not in the officer's presence.
(ii) Whenever the officer has reasonable cause to believe that the
person to be arrested has violated this section, whether or not this
section has, in fact, been violated.
(B) A peace officer may arrest a person for a violation of
subparagraph (F) of paragraph (2), if the peace officer has probable
cause to believe that the person is carrying a loaded pistol,
revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person
in violation of this section and that person is not listed with the
Department of Justice pursuant to paragraph (1) of subdivision (c) of
Section 11106 as the registered owner of that pistol, revolver, or
other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(6) (A) Every person convicted under this section who has
previously been convicted of an offense enumerated in Section
12001.6, or of any crime made punishable under this chapter, shall
serve a term of at least three months in a county jail, or, if
granted probation or if the execution or imposition of sentence is
suspended, it shall be a condition thereof that he or she be
imprisoned for a period of at least three months.
(B) The court shall apply the three-month minimum sentence except
in unusual cases where the interests of justice would best be served
by granting probation or suspending the imposition or execution of
sentence without the minimum imprisonment required in this
subdivision or by granting probation or suspending the imposition or
execution of sentence with conditions other than those set forth in
this subdivision, in which case, the court shall specify on the
record and shall enter on the minutes the circumstances indicating
that the interests of justice would best be served by that
disposition.
(7) A violation of this section which is punished by imprisonment
in a county jail not exceeding one year shall not constitute a
conviction of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding
one year for the purposes of determining federal firearms
eligibility under Section 922(g)(1) of Title 18 of the United States
Code.
(b) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following:
(1) Peace officers listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, or
subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, whether active or honorably
retired, other duly appointed peace officers, honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, other honorably
retired peace officers who during the course and scope of their
employment as peace officers were authorized to, and did, carry
firearms, full-time paid peace officers of other states and the
federal government who are carrying out official duties while in
California, or any person summoned by any of those officers to assist
in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is
actually engaged in assisting that officer. Any peace officer
described in this paragraph who has been honorably retired shall be
issued an identification certificate by the law enforcement agency
from which the officer has retired. The issuing agency may charge a
fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the agency
in issuing certificates pursuant to this paragraph and paragraph
(3).
Any officer, except an officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section
830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have an endorsement
on the identification certificate stating that the issuing agency
approves the officer's carrying of a loaded firearm.
No endorsement or renewal endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph
(2) shall be effective unless it is in the format set forth in
subparagraph (D) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
12027, except that any peace officer listed in subdivision (f) of
Section 830.2 or in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5, who is retired
between January 2, 1981, and on or before December 31, 1988, and who
is authorized to carry a loaded firearm pursuant to this section,
shall not be required to have an endorsement in the format set forth
in subparagraph (D) of paragraph (1) of subdivision (a) of Section
12027 until the time of the issuance, on or after January 1, 1989, of
a renewal endorsement pursuant to paragraph (2).
(2) A retired peace officer, except an officer listed in Section
830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c)
of Section 830.5 who retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall
petition the issuing agency for renewal of his or her privilege to
carry a loaded firearm every five years. An honorably retired peace
officer listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2, subdivision (a) of Section
830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 who retired prior to
January 1, 1981, shall not be required to obtain an endorsement from
the issuing agency to carry a loaded firearm. The agency from which
a peace officer is honorably retired may, upon initial retirement of
the peace officer, or at any time subsequent thereto, deny or revoke
for good cause the retired officer's privilege to carry a loaded
firearm. A peace officer who is listed in Section 830.1 or 830.2,
subdivision (a) of Section 830.33, or subdivision (c) of Section
830.5 who is retired prior to January 1, 1981, shall have his or her
privilege to carry a loaded firearm denied or revoked by having the
agency from which the officer retired stamp on the officer's
identification certificate "No CCW privilege."
(3) An honorably retired peace officer who is listed in
subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 and authorized to carry loaded
firearms by this subdivision shall meet the training requirements of
Section 832 and shall qualify with the firearm at least annually.
The individual retired peace officer shall be responsible for
maintaining his or her eligibility to carry a loaded firearm. The
Department of Justice shall provide subsequent arrest notification
pursuant to Section 11105.2 regarding honorably retired peace
officers listed in subdivision (c) of Section 830.5 to the agency
from which the officer has retired.
(4) Members of the military forces of this state or of the United
States engaged in the performance of their duties.
(5) Persons who are using target ranges for the purpose of
practice shooting with a firearm or who are members of shooting clubs
while hunting on the premises of those clubs.
(6) The carrying of pistols, revolvers, or other firearms capable
of being concealed upon the person by persons who are authorized to
carry those weapons pursuant to Article 3 (commencing with Section
12050) of Chapter 1 of Title 2 of Part 4.
(7) Armored vehicle guards, as defined in Section 7521 of the
Business and Professions Code, (A) if hired prior to January 1, 1977,
or (B) if hired on or after that date, if they have received a
firearms qualification card from the Department of Consumer Affairs,
in each case while acting within the course and scope of their
employment.
(8) Upon approval of the sheriff of the county in which they
reside, honorably retired federal officers or agents of federal law
enforcement agencies, including, but not limited to, the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, the United States
Customs Service, the Federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and
Firearms, the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, the Drug Enforcement
Administration, the United States Border Patrol, and officers or
agents of the Internal Revenue Service who were authorized to carry
weapons while on duty, who were assigned to duty within the state for
a period of not less than one year, or who retired from active
service in the state.
Retired federal officers or agents shall provide the sheriff with
certification from the agency from which they retired certifying
their service in the state, the nature of their retirement, and
indicating the agency's concurrence that the retired federal officer
or agent should be accorded the privilege of carrying a loaded
firearm.
Upon approval, the sheriff shall issue a permit to the retired
federal officer or agent indicating that he or she may carry a loaded
firearm in accordance with this paragraph. The permit shall be
valid for a period not exceeding five years, shall be carried by the
retiree while carrying a loaded firearm, and may be revoked for good
cause.
The sheriff of the county in which the retired federal officer or
agent resides may require recertification prior to a permit renewal,
and may suspend the privilege for cause. The sheriff may charge a
fee necessary to cover any reasonable expenses incurred by the
county.
(c) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
have completed a regular course in firearms training approved by the
Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training:
(1) Patrol special police officers appointed by the police
commission of any city, county, or city and county under the express
terms of its charter who also, under the express terms of the
charter, (A) are subject to suspension or dismissal after a hearing
on charges duly filed with the commission after a fair and impartial
trial, (B) are not less than 18 years of age or more than 40 years of
age, (C) possess physical qualifications prescribed by the
commission, and (D) are designated by the police commission as the
owners of a certain beat or territory as may be fixed from time to
time by the police commission.
(2) The carrying of weapons by animal control officers or
zookeepers, regularly compensated as such by a governmental agency
when acting in the course and scope of their employment and when
designated by a local ordinance or, if the governmental agency is not
authorized to act by ordinance, by a resolution, either individually
or by class, to carry the weapons, or by persons who are authorized
to carry the weapons pursuant to Section 14502 of the Corporations
Code, while actually engaged in the performance of their duties
pursuant to that section.
(3) Harbor police officers designated pursuant to Section 663.5 of
the Harbors and Navigation Code.
(d) Subdivision (a) shall not apply to any of the following who
have been issued a certificate pursuant to Section 12033. The
certificate shall not be required of any person who is a peace
officer, who has completed all training required by law for the
exercise of his or her power as a peace officer, and who is employed
while not on duty as a peace officer.
(1) Guards or messengers of common carriers, banks, and other
financial institutions while actually employed in and about the
shipment, transportation, or delivery of any money, treasure,
bullion, bonds, or other thing of value within this state.
(2) Guards of contract carriers operating armored vehicles
pursuant to California Highway Patrol and Public Utilities Commission
authority (A) if hired prior to January 1, 1977, or (B) if hired on
or after January 1, 1977, if they have completed a course in the
carrying and use of firearms which meets the standards prescribed by
the Department of Consumer Affairs.
(3) Private investigators and private patrol operators who are
licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with Section 7512) of,
and alarm company operators who are licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.6
(commencing with Section 7590) of, Division 3 of the Business and
Professions Code, while acting within the course and scope of their
employment.
(4) Uniformed security guards or night watch persons employed by
any public agency, while acting within the scope and course of their
employment.
(5) Uniformed security guards, regularly employed and compensated
in that capacity by persons engaged in any lawful business, and
uniformed alarm agents employed by an alarm company operator, while
actually engaged in protecting and preserving the property of their
employers or on duty or en route to or from their residences or their
places of employment, and security guards and alarm agents en route
to or from their residences or employer-required range training.
Nothing in this paragraph shall be construed to prohibit cities and
counties from enacting ordinances requiring alarm agents to register
their names.
(6) Uniformed employees of private patrol operators and private
investigators licensed pursuant to Chapter 11.5 (commencing with
Section 7512) of Division 3 of the Business and Professions Code,
while acting within the course and scope of their employment.
(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for
the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized
to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a
vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory.
Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to
this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of
this section.
(f) As used in this section, "prohibited area" means any place
where it is unlawful to discharge a weapon.
(g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.
(h) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person engaged in
any lawful business, including a nonprofit organization, or any
officer, employee, or agent authorized by that person for lawful
purposes connected with that business, from having a loaded firearm
within the person's place of business, or any person in lawful
possession of private property from having a loaded firearm on that
property.
(i) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from carrying
a loaded firearm in an area within an incorporated city while
engaged in hunting, provided that the hunting at that place and time
is not prohibited by the city council.
(j) (1) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the
carrying of any loaded firearm, under circumstances where it would
otherwise be lawful, by a person who reasonably believes that the
person or property of himself or herself or of another is in
immediate, grave danger and that the carrying of the weapon is
necessary for the preservation of that person or property. As used
in this subdivision, "immediate" means the brief interval before and
after the local law enforcement agency, when reasonably possible, has
been notified of the danger and before the arrival of its
assistance.
(2) A violation of this section is justifiable when a person who
possesses a firearm reasonably believes that he or she is in grave
danger because of circumstances forming the basis of a current
restraining order issued by a court against another person or persons
who has or have been found to pose a threat to his or her life or
safety. This paragraph may not apply when the circumstances involve
a mutual restraining order issued pursuant to Division 10 (commencing
with Section 6200) of the Family Code absent a factual finding of a
specific threat to the person's life or safety. It is not the intent
of the Legislature to limit, restrict, or narrow the application of
current statutory or judicial authority to apply this or other
justifications to defendants charged with violating Section 12025 or
of committing other similar offenses.
Upon trial for violating this section, the trier of fact shall
determine whether the defendant was acting out of a reasonable belief
that he or she was in grave danger.
(k) Nothing in this section is intended to preclude the carrying
of a loaded firearm by any person while engaged in the act of making
or attempting to make a lawful arrest.
(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a
loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of
residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.
(m) (1) The district attorney of each county shall submit annually
a report on or before June 30, to the Attorney General consisting of
profiles by race, age, gender, and ethnicity of any person charged
with a felony or a misdemeanor under this section and any other
offense charged in the same complaint, indictment, or information.
(2) The Attorney General shall submit annually, a report on or
before December 31, to the Legislature compiling all of the reports
submitted pursuant to paragraph (1).
(3) This subdivision shall remain operative only until January 1,
2005.

First Amendment to the United States Constitution:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Second Amendment to the United States Constitution:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Ninth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

I think that about covers it as far as the law is concerned. There are of course numerous court cases but I don't have an extensive list of those handy right now. Some of the most important ones are Terry v. Ohio (SCOTUS), Florida v. J.L. (SCOTUS), People v. Clark (CA), St. John v. McColley, et. al. (NM) to name a few. That should get you started.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

wewd wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Cites, please.
SNIP California Penal Code 12025...[entire post]
Wewd,

I count about fourteen statements of law in the your post for which I requested cites, give or take some that combine with others.

I don't need to "get started". As a long time member and avid 4th Amendment student, I already know whether your statements are true and most of the cases that would be cited.

The cites request was for new guys, as I mentioned.

You do no one any favors by declaring the law without citation or quote. New readers have no way to evaluate the accuracy.

If you do not have time for extensive quotes and citations, perhaps just selecting one or two relevant points to cite and quote would be the way to go.
 

Sons of Liberty

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Mar 7, 2009
Messages
638
Location
Riverside, California, USA
imported post

Citizen wrote:
wewd wrote:
Citizen wrote:
Cites, please.
SNIP California Penal Code 12025...[entire post]
Wewd,

I count about fourteen statements of law in the your post for which I requested cites, give or take some that combine with others.

I don't need to "get started". As a long time member and avid 4th Amendment student, I already know whether your statements are true and most of the cases that would be cited.

The cites request was for new guys, as I mentioned.

You do no one any favors by declaring the law without citation or quote. New readers have no way to evaluate the accuracy.

If you do not have time for extensive quotes and citations, perhaps just selecting one or two relevant points to cite and quote would be the way to go.

I agree that citing is a practice with many benefits; not just for new posters but also for those who respond. After awhile, repetitious citing enables a memory to be embedded in your mind. You may surprise yourself what you can quote when on the street without the aid of a computer and Internet.

This is one thing I have always appreciated about this forum! :)
 

bigtoe416

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Messages
1,747
Location
Oregon
imported post

wewd wrote:
The police can ask you any question they want (for the most part), but you have the right to refuse to answer them, unless you are legally required to. In the state of California, you are not required to carry identification, or to surrender identification on demand, or to even verbally identify yourself to police. You can choose to do so, at your own peril, but you have the right not to.
Kolender v. Lawson made California's old stop and ID statute disappear.

The police, however, do not have the right to detain you any longer than it takes to determine the loaded state of your weapon. That should reasonably last all of 15 seconds. They do not have the right to detain you in order to call in the serial number.
Coolidge v. New Hampshire says, "Under certain circumstances, the police may, without a warrant seize, evidence in 'plain view,' though not for that reason alone, and only when the discovery of the evidence is inadvertent." Arizona v. Hicks says, "Probable cause is required to invoke the 'plain view' doctrine as it applies to seizures."

That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons.
Not sure about the citations for these.

Even if the cops suspect that you may be dangerous, they must be able to articulate reasonable facts that support their suspicion. Simply being armed is not probable cause to believe that someone is also dangerous.
Terry v. Ohio, Florida v. JL.

Any time someone is open carrying, as long as it is not in a prohibited area, and the carrier is not acting in a threatening or otherwise unlawful manner, the police only have the right to demand to briefly inspect the carrier's weapon to determine if it is loaded or unloaded, and if the weapon is unloaded, they are to be discharged to go about their lawful business. The law does not permit the police to demand anything else, or to assume anything else, and any detainment beyond a reasonable time to inspect the weapon is an unreasonable detainment.
12031(e)
 

coolusername2007

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bigtoe416 wrote:
wewd:
That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons.
Not sure about the citations for these.

Isn't this also4A andTerry v. Ohio


“No right is held more sacred, or is more carefully guarded, by the common law than the right of every individual to the possession and control of his own person, free from all restraint or interference of others, unless by clear and unquestionable authority of law.”
Terry v Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)


 

wewd

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Thank you bigtoe, I am currently researching citations for some of those statements. I only stated what I believe to be facts based on previous citations on this board.

That would, in almost every case, constitute an unlawful search and seizure of your property, and would violate your fourth amendment protection. They also do not have the right to draw down on you, to cuff you (a de facto arrest), to disarm you (except incidentally as part of a loaded check), or to even pat you down. Unless they have a reasonable, articulable suspicion that you are both armed AND dangerous, they have no cause to search your person for concealed weapons.

I believe Terry applies here, as well as U.S. v. Ubiles, and U.S. v. King.

Gilles v. Repicky may apply for unreasonably long detainments but I have also seen another case cited which I cannot remember.

St. John v. McColley (New Mexico, 2009) is a very new case which is an excellent case that pertains to detainment of open carriers and fourth amendment violations. That case is extremely well cited and I recommend that every open carrier read the decision. You can read it here
 

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Kolender v. Lawson

This guy was a pro-se litigant no less and went all the way to the supreme court. He is my hero.
 

Citizen

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Wow!!

Thanks for the cites, fellas. 'Way toeducate the new guys!

Anybody got time forpulling and posting more quotes?

I'll chip in one.

Can government require you toshow ID to police during an investigative encounter on the street? Can police demand to see ID during an investigative encounter on the street,rather can you be arrested for not showing it? No to both.*

This from Kolender vs Lawson:

...Section 647(e) is not simply a "stop-and-identify" statute. Rather, the statute requires that the individual provide a "credible and reliable" identification that carries a "reasonable assurance" of its authenticity, and that provides "means for later getting in touch with the person who has identified himself."...

...It is clear that the full discretion accorded to the police to determine whether the suspect has provided a "credible and reliable" identification necessarily "entrust lawmaking to the moment-to-moment judgment of the policeman on his beat.'"...

...We conclude § 647(e) is unconstitutionally vague on its face because it encourages arbitrary enforcement by failing to describe with sufficient particularity what a suspect must do in order to satisfy the statute.

http://supreme.justia.com/us/461/352/case.html

*However, another case, Hiibel v 6th Judicial Court, says, inso many words,the police may demand verbal identification if 1) there is a state statute, or presumably a local ordinance,requiring you to identify yourself, and 2) the police have enough suspicion to justify a forcible encounter also known asa Terry Stop, namedafter Terry vs Ohio.The difference being one is talking about an ID document (Kolender) and the other is talking aboutverbally identifying yourself (Hiibel).
 

wewd

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Here's a very important quote from Kolender:

In contrast, police knowledge of the identity of an individual they have deemed "suspicious" grants the police unfettered discretion to initiate or continue investigation of the person long after the detention has ended. Information concerning the stop, the arrest and the individual's identity may become part of a large scale data bank.

And that, quite simply, is why you should never identify yourself to police. Theseus's case should be warning enough. His case is also why I strongly advocate "sterile carry", which is not carrying any identifying documents on your person while you are open carrying. Theseus refused to identify himself, but (if I recall correctly) the police searched his person and retrieved his wallet.

You have nothing to gain and quite possibly everything to lose by identifying yourself to police. They're not there to be your friend or advocate, they are there to bust you and take you to jail. That's their job. And even if you believe that you are in full compliance with the law, it may later prove that you were not, and it will come back to bite you.
 

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Opencarry Larry wrote:
I was walking on Campo road, possibly technically Spring Valley. Im pretty sure I overheard "all available units" so some I believe were Sheriffs, yet I was close enough to the trolley station for one of them to respond as well.I don't believe they were called by civilians, I think the one officer just spotted it as he drove past.
[/quote]
Yes, Spring Valley is patrolled by the Sheriff's Department. The SDSO doesn't get a lot of open carriers so they may be slightly behind the curve in handling the situation. Good to hear they got a schooling on the subject! Good job! :)
 
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