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Thread: OC & the DNR Plus, Should you give up your gun?

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    Regular Member hardballer's Avatar
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    I have always OC'd while hunting. .45 on hip and shot gun or rifle in hand.

    DNR says if the wardon demands your guns (no reason, just hand them over), you hand 'em over. Smells of fear to me.

    Sounds like "unreasonable search and seizure", not to mention "shall not infringe". What do ya'all think.

    DNR out of hand or what? Time to reign them in? After all, whether they believe it or not, they work for us. "We the People"
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    The topic of DNR practices comes up periodically. We can speculate all we want, but there doesn't seem to be many case studies to review. Makes me wonder one of two things. Are the gestapo-like tactics a bit exagerated or are they so bad no one dares challenge them?

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    JimE wrote:
    The topic of DNR practices comes up periodically. We can speculate all we want, but there doesn't seem to be many case studies to review. Makes me wonder one of two things. Are the gestapo-like tactics a bit exagerated or are they so bad no one dares challenge them?
    It depends on which warden you get the "Pleasure" of dealing with. One Warden that was really bad with his attitue, and veryrudewas Tom Kroeplin.
    After an investigation of his latest questionable actions, he resigned with some pressure from the superiors. He was involved with several questionable dealings and convicted of using his authority for personal gain. The drug-planting ordeal he was involved in also did help his reputationtoo much .
    I attended seminars with him as a guest speaker, and his verbal skill were not what you would want to represent anything besides a spoof beer commercial.

    The name 'Wrasse" comes up quite often in these parts too.

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    I can only speak for my self, If I am approached by a warden and he instantly demands that I hand over my fire arms, I am not going to comply. I will keep walking. Yeah he may call for back up and maybe even arrest me, but I will not be subject to unlawful search and seizure and do so compliantly.

    This is exactly the reason why these wardens have had their hats shot off of their heads while in the sticks. Wardens like them deserve the same intimidation they give the tax payers.

    They can ask my name and for my hunting license, that is within the scope of their job. My fire arm that I am legally carrying is not within the scope of their job and whether or not the fire arm is in my possession or theirs does not stop them from doing their job.

    This is just a feeble attempt at the wardens trying to be street cops.

    Molon Labe!

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    JimE wrote:
    The topic of DNR practices comes up periodically. We can speculate all we want, but there doesn't seem to be many case studies to review. Makes me wonder one of two things. Are the gestapo-like tactics a bit exagerated or are they so bad no one dares challenge them?
    No they are not.... the DNR is actually not in favor of 2nd Admendent rights and only in favor of the state constitution rights to firearms only to the extent that it pertains to hunting. The DNR is filled with badge heavy cop wannabes sitting behind a desk in Madisonand tree hugging elitists.

    http://johnjacobh.wordpress.com/2009...eize-your-gun/
    When in danger you can dial 911 and hope for the police to arrive a few minutes later armed with guns.
    Why do police carry guns?

    The Joyce Foundation funded firearm control empire:
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    I can only speak for my self, If I am approached by a warden and he instantly demands that I hand over my fire arms, I am not going to comply. I will keep walking. Yeah he may call for back up and maybe even arrest me, but I will not be subject to unlawful search and seizure and do so compliantly.

    This is exactly the reason why these wardens have had their hats shot off of their heads while in the sticks. Wardens like them deserve the same intimidation they give the tax payers.

    They can ask my name and for my hunting license, that is within the scope of their job. My fire arm that I am legally carrying is not within the scope of their job and whether or not the fire arm is in my possession or theirs does not stop them from doing their job.

    This is just a feeble attempt at the wardens trying to be street cops.

    Molon Labe!
    This is an interesting situation. And an interesting assertion.

    So, wardens have been shot at with a deadly weapon? I wonder by whom?

    And you seem to endorse shooting at the heads ofcertain wardens.

    Doesn't that violate the 4 Rules of Gun Safety or something?

    Guns are not supposed to be for playing tricks making rhetorical arguments. Are they? Guns are not toys. Are they?



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    Mystified at that reasoning, Palan sought out a legislative viewpoint, asking his state senator, Dale Schultz (R-Richland Center), whether a DNR warden in fact possessed any authority to take custody of a legal firearm, absent any probable cause.

    Schultz retrieved an opinion from a senior staff attorney for the Wisconsin Legislative Council. The answer was vague, at best. Still, the attorney, Mark Patronsky, could find no blanket authority, except that arising from certain specifically defined statutory reasons.

    "Within the scope of the constitutional prohibition of unreasonable searches and seizures, the courts have carved out authorization for law enforcement officers (such as conservation wardens) to take control of a firearm to protect the safety of the law enforcement officer," Patronsky wrote. "The officer, after further investigation and determination of a probable cause, may proceed to arrest the individual and seize the firearm."

    Other situations in which a firearm might be seized included violations of various ammunitions and transporting regulations or the creation of a public nuisance.

    The bottom line was, though, police needed some reason for the seizure.

    "The statutes and administrative rules described in this memorandum, as well as a variety of other statutes and rules, do allow a warden to take a person's firearm for various reasons," he wrote.

    Palan says that means a warden simply can't take a firearm without some probable cause.

    "Nowhere in the hunters' education manual, nowhere in the instructors manual, nowhere in any state statutes that I can find, does it say you must hand over your firearm," he said. "Nowhere."
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    HankT wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:
    I can only speak for my self, If I am approached by a warden and he instantly demands that I hand over my fire arms, I am not going to comply. I will keep walking. Yeah he may call for back up and maybe even arrest me, but I will not be subject to unlawful search and seizure and do so compliantly.

    This is exactly the reason why these wardens have had their hats shot off of their heads while in the sticks. Wardens like them deserve the same intimidation they give the tax payers.

    They can ask my name and for my hunting license, that is within the scope of their job. My fire arm that I am legally carrying is not within the scope of their job and whether or not the fire arm is in my possession or theirs does not stop them from doing their job.

    This is just a feeble attempt at the wardens trying to be street cops.

    Molon Labe!
    This is an interesting situation. And an interesting assertion.

    So, wardens have been shot at with a deadly weapon? I wonder by whom?

    And you seem to endorse shooting at the heads ofcertain wardens.

    Doesn't that violate the 4 Rules of Gun Safety or something?

    Guns are not supposed to be for playing tricks making rhetorical arguments. Are they? Guns are not toys. Are they?

    Hmmmm, and just where Hank T did it say I endorse shooting at the heads of certain wardens?

    don't let your head swell to much here. Read my words exactly as they are written and do not include your own definitions.

    In the North woods wardens have been shot at many times, it was reported in the news many times and will more than likely continue many times.

    I suppose that when the time comes and the tyrants come knocking on your door to collect your fire arms, you will be one of the sheep that peacefully hand them over because you wouldn't want to violate any of the "4 Rules of gun safety or something."

    It would be much easier to just hand them over as "Guns are not supposed to be for playing tricks making rhetorical arguments. Are they? Guns are not toys. Are they?"

    Just like many here over read the statutes and the codes, do not over read my comments or contend to make definition of my words for anything other then they were written. Thankyou.

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    Hank, I can relay a situation with a warden that happened a few years ago, I watched it all unfold from a set of binoculars.

    It was not legal to leave a portabletreestand in a tree on state owned, or forest crop-law land.
    A hunting partner of mine lowered his stand from the tree, and stashed it in the bushes next to the treeso he would not need to hoof it in the next morning.

    a warden confronted him on the practice but did not ticket him for it. Then for the next several hours, this warden stood about 10 yards from this mans hunting spot while he was in his treestand for the sole purpose of being an annoyance and practically guarenteeing no deer would comne near his stand, Hewas chatting on his radio with the volume turned up to the highest level, talking loudly to the guy in the tree. it was pure harrassment on the wardens part.

    Another tactic this particular warden liked to ticket people wrongfully, he would wait by people vehicles on the road for them to return from the woods. If their bow was not encased while they walked out of the woods, he would cite them for hunting after hours. Snowmobiling; he would write tickets for prohibited exhaust systems even though it was a factory equipped system that someone had polished or coated with ceramic compounds. There is no law that prohibits aftermarket exhaust systems! Just a noise level ordinance and the people that have received citations for exhaust modifications were under the legal limit for noise.

    Many of these wardens only go out to terrorize the public instead of doing their jobs as prescribed.

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    We have a warden who patrols Beaver Dam Lake by the name of Heather.

    She has been known to beach her DNR boat (on the rocks) and jump out to write a citation to someone giving a child a ride on a lawn tractor.

    She led a raid on a bar/restaurant for having a fish fry using bullheads from the lake. Full out swat gear, guns drawn, cuffing everyone associated with the bar...all over some fish.

    How is that the responsibility of the DNR?

    Supposedly she has had a "talking to" regarding her actions

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    Stoney-Point wrote:
    We have a warden who patrols Beaver Dam Lake by the name of Heather.

    She has been known to beach her DNR boat (on the rocks) and jump out to write a citation to someone giving a child a ride on a lawn tractor.

    She led a raid on a bar/restaurant for having a fish fry using bullheads from the lake. Full out swat gear, guns drawn, cuffing everyone associated with the bar...all over some fish.

    How is that the responsibility of the DNR?

    Supposedly she has had a "talking to" regarding her actions
    Under what authority can she give some one a citation for giving a ride on a lawn mower?

    And under what authority can they raid a bar because of a fish fry?

    How many fish were present and how many people? What are the bag limits you can have in your possession.

    Believe me when I say a Revolution is coming. Enough is Enough.

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    J.Gleason wrote:

    And under what authority can they raid a bar because of a fish fry?

    There arenatural resources codesfor searving game to guests.

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    Hillmann wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:

    And under what authority can they raid a bar because of a fish fry?

    There arenatural resources codesfor searving game to guests.
    Oh, so she had a warrant due to probable cause and RAS that there was illegal game or fish in the establishment?

    A Raid is a Raid is a Raid. They need a warrant to conduct a Raid.

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    Some of the wardens are also deputized in their prospective territories. Buss, in Sauk county was. I've heard he even stopped people for speeding before.
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    J.Gleason wrote:
    Hillmann wrote:
    J.Gleason wrote:

    And under what authority can they raid a bar because of a fish fry?

    There arenatural resources codesfor searving game to guests.
    Oh, so she had a warrant due to probable cause and RAS that there was illegal game or fish in the establishment?

    A Raid is a Raid is a Raid. They need a warrant to conduct a Raid.
    You are assuming they didn't have a warrent. I am just sayin that there are laws about searving game to guests and that may be why the "raid" took place. I am not saying anything else about there actions, I don't know anything about this incident other than what was originaly posted.

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    One has to wonder if a judge would issue such a warrant simply for the cause of a fish fry. What a waste of tax payers dollars.

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    Fish Fry[/b] A La Gestapo?
    Capital Times :: Lifestyle :: 1D
    Saturday, August 9, 1997
    Rob Zaleski
    For sheer drama, it was like a scene from Fox 47's ``Cops'' show --and as chilling as any Tom Clancy novel.
    While an estimated 125 people were taking part in the annual free fish fryat The Bridge tavern's picnic grounds on Beaver Dam Lake[/b] two weeks ago, a halfdozen cars suddenly pulled into the parking lot.As the predominantly blue-collar crowd looked on with mouths agape, sixgrim-faced state Department of Natural Resources wardens and a Dodge Countysheriff's deputy jumped out of the vehicles. (There was another plainclotheswarden mingling with the crowd; two additional sheriff's deputies later joinedthe scene.)
    And before anyone could react, witnesses say, the wardens were barking outorders, interrogating certain individuals and checking out coolers filled witha variety of fish that Jerry Daley, the tavern's owner, says were donated forthe event by least 15 area fishermen.
    ``They came in here like a SWAT team,'' says Daley, 62, a former Janesvilleresident who bought The Bridge seven years ago. ``You would have thought itwas a drug raid. They had flak jackets on. They had their camcorders out. Theyhad their handcuffs ready in case anyone got out of control.''













    Jerry Neis, 54, who lives down the road and has his own electronicsbusiness, says he could tell by the wardens' ``aggressive'' behavior that thiswas serious business.
    ``I said to one of 'em, `Hey, we're just having a fish fry[/b] here -- peoplegetting together on a Saturday afternoon. Why don't you just let us be?' '' hesays.
    ``And they come on with this, `Just shut up and go away or you'll be next.'At one table people were booing. But you had to stay in a crowd. If they sawwho it was, they came after you.''
    Mike Spors, the warden who orchestrated the raid, says the wardensconfiscated about 6,000 fillets -- or about 3,000 fish.
    And while no charges have yet been filed -- there was one arrest fordisorderly conduct -- he emphasizes that the focus of the DNR investigationhas little to do with the fact that Daley violated a state law by serving gamefish without a permit.
    ``The issue,'' he says, ``is a very small number of people possessing alarge number of fish. And our investigation leads us to believe that thosefish may have been taken illegally and were grossly over the possessionlimit.''
    He also scoffs at the notion that the fish fry[/b] was free, pointing out thatthe wardens also seized a jar filled with almost $100 in donations.
    Further, he says, patrons had to pay for their drinks.
    ``Do you know how much profit there is when you sell beer at $1.75 a can?''he asks. ``These are things people need to think about. There's a huge profitto be made from something like this.''
    Asked if such a massive show of force by a government agency doesn't justfuel the paranoia of right-wing militia groups, Spors says he hopes that's notthe case ``because we only used the number of people we needed to shut downthat operation.
    ``There were many people there. We knew there was going to be a very largeamount of fish we'd have to take control of.''
    So the strategy, Spors says, was ``to get in and out as quickly as possible-- and to leave as little room for confrontation as possible.''
    Justifiable or not, the raid has infuriated many local residents, saysEditor James Kelsh of the Beaver Dam Daily Citizen. He says the paper hasreceived 10 letters -- five of them unsigned -- protesting the incident,several of which compared the DNR's tactics to Hitler's Gestapo.
    ``It's the dominant topic of conversation in coffee shops,'' he says.
    Daley, for his part, says he's outraged by any suggestion that he was outto gouge people. He questions if the DNR realizes how much work was involved-- or how popular the event has become. (Last year an estimated 500 peopleshowed up.)
    Yes, he makes money from the beer sales, he says. But he's also the guy whorents the tents and provides the use of his kitchen facilities.
    And money raised from donations goes to the local three-piece band thatalways plays at the event, he says.
    Moreover, he says wasn't aware that one needs a permit to serve a free fishfry -- and doubts other tavern owners are, either.
    ``I mean, we're not the only bar in Wisconsin that does this sort of thing,you know,'' he says.
    Ed Lewandowski, 48, who helped organize the fish fry[/b] with his girlfriend,Dawn Tuel, 33, says it's no great mystery what the DNR was really after.
    ``Me,'' he says matter of factly.
    How else does one explain that he was the only person hauled off to theBeaver Dam jail and grilled for almost an hour before being released?
    The DNR wants him, he maintains, because he happens to be a very successfulfisherman. So successful, he says, that some area fishermen are jealous.
    (``Unfortunately, he also tends to brag about how many fish he catches,''Tuel says.)
    And so successful, Lewandowski says, that he's under constant surveillancefrom area wardens -- particularly John Christian of the DNR's Horicon office.
    ``This is nothing but a witch hunt,'' says Lewandowski, a 27-year employeeof CP Railroad in nearby Fox Lake. ``They've got a vendetta out for me.''
    Spors acknowledges that Lewandowski is one of three individuals the DNR isinvestigating. But he denies that Christian or anyone else from the DNR is``out to get him.''
    ``We definitely want to get our side (of the story) out,'' Spors adds.``But this is a lengthy investigative process. We can't say everything we'dlike to say right now, to inform the public.
    ``But it'll all come out after the charges are filed and everyone has theirday in court.''
    As for those who insist the DNR got carried away, absolutely not, Sporssays.
    ``OK, so we did use seven wardens,'' he says. ``But, frankly, if we'd hadmore, I would have used more.''

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    Regular Member Decoligny's Avatar
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    Hillmann wrote:
    Fish Fry[/b] A La Gestapo?
    Capital Times :: Lifestyle :: 1D
    Saturday, August 9, 1997
    Rob Zaleski
    For sheer drama, it was like a scene from Fox 47's ``Cops'' show --and as chilling as any Tom Clancy novel.
    While an estimated 125 people were taking part in the annual free fish fryat The Bridge tavern's picnic grounds on Beaver Dam Lake[/b] two weeks ago, a halfdozen cars suddenly pulled into the parking lot.As the predominantly blue-collar crowd looked on with mouths agape, sixgrim-faced state Department of Natural Resources wardens and a Dodge Countysheriff's deputy jumped out of the vehicles. (There was another plainclotheswarden mingling with the crowd; two additional sheriff's deputies later joinedthe scene.)
    And before anyone could react, witnesses say, the wardens were barking outorders, interrogating certain individuals and checking out coolers filled witha variety of fish that Jerry Daley, the tavern's owner, says were donated forthe event by least 15 area fishermen.
    ``They came in here like a SWAT team,'' says Daley, 62, a former Janesvilleresident who bought The Bridge seven years ago. ``You would have thought itwas a drug raid. They had flak jackets on. They had their camcorders out. Theyhad their handcuffs ready in case anyone got out of control.''

    Jerry Neis, 54, who lives down the road and has his own electronicsbusiness, says he could tell by the wardens' ``aggressive'' behavior that thiswas serious business.
    ``I said to one of 'em, `Hey, we're just having a fish fry[/b] here -- peoplegetting together on a Saturday afternoon. Why don't you just let us be?' '' hesays.
    ``And they come on with this, `Just shut up and go away or you'll be next.'At one table people were booing. But you had to stay in a crowd. If they sawwho it was, they came after you.''
    Mike Spors, the warden who orchestrated the raid, says the wardensconfiscated about 6,000 fillets -- or about 3,000 fish.
    And while no charges have yet been filed -- there was one arrest fordisorderly conduct -- he emphasizes that the focus of the DNR investigationhas little to do with the fact that Daley violated a state law by serving gamefish without a permit.
    ``The issue,'' he says, ``is a very small number of people possessing alarge number of fish. And our investigation leads us to believe that thosefish may have been taken illegally and were grossly over the possessionlimit.''
    He also scoffs at the notion that the fish fry[/b] was free, pointing out thatthe wardens also seized a jar filled with almost $100 in donations.
    Further, he says, patrons had to pay for their drinks.
    ``Do you know how much profit there is when you sell beer at $1.75 a can?''he asks. ``These are things people need to think about. There's a huge profitto be made from something like this.''
    Asked if such a massive show of force by a government agency doesn't justfuel the paranoia of right-wing militia groups, Spors says he hopes that's notthe case ``because we only used the number of people we needed to shut downthat operation.
    ``There were many people there. We knew there was going to be a very largeamount of fish we'd have to take control of.''
    So the strategy, Spors says, was ``to get in and out as quickly as possible-- and to leave as little room for confrontation as possible.''
    Justifiable or not, the raid has infuriated many local residents, saysEditor James Kelsh of the Beaver Dam Daily Citizen. He says the paper hasreceived 10 letters -- five of them unsigned -- protesting the incident,several of which compared the DNR's tactics to Hitler's Gestapo.
    ``It's the dominant topic of conversation in coffee shops,'' he says.
    Daley, for his part, says he's outraged by any suggestion that he was outto gouge people. He questions if the DNR realizes how much work was involved-- or how popular the event has become. (Last year an estimated 500 peopleshowed up.)
    Yes, he makes money from the beer sales, he says. But he's also the guy whorents the tents and provides the use of his kitchen facilities.
    And money raised from donations goes to the local three-piece band thatalways plays at the event, he says.
    Moreover, he says wasn't aware that one needs a permit to serve a free fishfry -- and doubts other tavern owners are, either.
    ``I mean, we're not the only bar in Wisconsin that does this sort of thing,you know,'' he says.
    Ed Lewandowski, 48, who helped organize the fish fry[/b] with his girlfriend,Dawn Tuel, 33, says it's no great mystery what the DNR was really after.
    ``Me,'' he says matter of factly.
    How else does one explain that he was the only person hauled off to theBeaver Dam jail and grilled for almost an hour before being released?
    The DNR wants him, he maintains, because he happens to be a very successfulfisherman. So successful, he says, that some area fishermen are jealous.
    (``Unfortunately, he also tends to brag about how many fish he catches,''Tuel says.)
    And so successful, Lewandowski says, that he's under constant surveillancefrom area wardens -- particularly John Christian of the DNR's Horicon office.
    ``This is nothing but a witch hunt,'' says Lewandowski, a 27-year employeeof CP Railroad in nearby Fox Lake. ``They've got a vendetta out for me.''
    Spors acknowledges that Lewandowski is one of three individuals the DNR isinvestigating. But he denies that Christian or anyone else from the DNR is``out to get him.''
    ``We definitely want to get our side (of the story) out,'' Spors adds.``But this is a lengthy investigative process. We can't say everything we'dlike to say right now, to inform the public.
    ``But it'll all come out after the charges are filed and everyone has theirday in court.''
    As for those who insist the DNR got carried away, absolutely not, Sporssays.
    ``OK, so we did use seven wardens,'' he says. ``But, frankly, if we'd hadmore, I would have used more.''
    I think the proper response for this raid would be to give the wardens more fish. Everyone in the county should have caught their legallimit and deposited the entire catch (after sitting in the sun for a few days) on the front steps of her office building.

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    I think the proper response for this raid would be to give the wardens more fish. Everyone in the county should have caught their legallimit and deposited the entire catch (after sitting in the sun for a few days) on the front steps of her office building.
    I think the proper response would have been to ask to see their warrant.
    With out the warrant I would have asked them to leave my property.

    And I would have done this so every one could hear it. Hence a video camera whether it is their video camera or yours is always a good tool to have at an event such as this. Even on stand by.

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    Law enforcement is always asking for the help of the public. How the hell can they expect us to help them catch the serious perps when the act like a bunch of foolish bullys. I was wondering, do these clowns go through any training like police acadamys or anything like that? In my state they can stop you for speeding just like the local police. Just what kind training do thet get?

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    Thought this applied as it seems sometimes LE doesn't have anything better to do than to bust people having a fish fry.



    Speaking of his bust for possesion of pot:

    ”This was Florida; these cops drove by three meth labs and a dead hooker just to get there” -- Ron White
    Of course Ron didn't say no when they asked to search his plane or his person.

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    JG wrote:
    I was wondering, do these clowns go through any training like police acadamys or anything like that? In my state they can stop you for speeding just like the local police. Just what kind training do thet get?
    http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/es/en...t/recruit.html

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    From the U. S, Supreme Court decision in Terry v. Ohio. Draw your own conclusions.

    In view of these facts, we cannot blind ourselves to the need for law enforcement officers to protect themselves and other prospective victims of violence in situations where they may lack probable cause for an arrest. When an officer is justified in believing that the individual whose suspicious behavior he is investigating at close range is armed and presently dangerous to the officer or to others, it would appear to be clearly unreasonable to deny the officer the power to take necessary measures to determine whether the person is in fact carrying a weapon and to neutralize the threat of physical harm.

    emphasis mine.

  24. #24
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    But they were only armed with Fish Fillets.

    Death by bull head

  25. #25
    Wisconsin Carry, Inc. Shotgun's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    This is an interesting situation. And an interesting assertion.

    So, wardens have been shot at with a deadly weapon? I wonder by whom?

    And you seem to endorse shooting at the heads ofcertain wardens.

    Doesn't that violate the 4 Rules of Gun Safety or something?

    Guns are not supposed to be for playing tricks making rhetorical arguments. Are they? Guns are not toys. Are they?

    1. All guns are always loaded.
    2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
    3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
    4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.


    Not to sound cold-blooded about it, but logically, if these are the "4 Rules of Gun Safety" to which you refer, it doesn't necessarily violate any of them. You are making the assumption that the shooter is unwilling to destroy what the muzzle is covering. If that is a correct assumption, I will concede that then, and only then, it to be a violation of Rule #2.
    A. Gold

    Failure to comply may result in discipline up to and including termination.
    The free man is a warrior. - Nietzsche "Twilight of the Idols"

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