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John Wolver's carrying stories

John Wolver

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Caldwell, Idaho, USA
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So tonight, Wednesday the 16th, I was walking around my neighborhood with my dogs and my son. I was carrying. Didn't have any problems it seemed. I dropped my kids off at home and took another walk with out them. I get about a hundred yards from the house and one of the "neighbors" was outside and started talking at me asking me I am carrying my gun around like that, if it makes me feel (he cut himself off). I told him it was my 2nd amenment right to carry and no, it didnt make me feel anything. He cut me off said conversation was over, i said ok well have a good night. He started in again, saying i shouldnt be carrying my gun around like that, kids my think its ok. I told him it is ok, it is legal, then he stormed off.

I went to a friends house that is kaddy korner of him and was talking to him for awhile (he oc's too) We watched a cop pull up to his house, and I decided to continue my walk. I made it 60 yards down the road and got stopped by another cop. I was told to keep my hand off of my gun and I was disarmed. I then said hi to this officer because I knew him slightly. He asked me what I was doing and then said we would wait for another officer to come down. I was asked if i had my ID with me and i said no, but i would identify myself, i said this again after I was asked about my id.

He tookd my information when another cop showed up. I assume this was the one who spoke to the nieghbor. I was then asked where i was going, if i had a concealed weapons permit, why i diddnt havea permit (fishing for info) did i know i could get one if i didnt have any problems with my record, that i should think about getting one cause then i wouldnt make people nervous. and when that didnt get them all they wanted, they flat out asked if i had any convictions or felonies. They then looked at my belt and holster and asked if i was a cop, i said no, but i worked at the prison.

Another officer then said you were in law enforcement, i understand why you would want to carry. I was then told it makes people nervous for someone to be carrying especially this late. The officer said i support open carry and all but maybe you should walk around and hand out pamphlets instead of carrying a gun cause that makes people nervous. (STUPID ME FORGOT TO TURN ON RECORDER) I said it was my right, they agreed, they even got defensive when at one point. They were trying to lecture me a little, and I rebutted saying it was my right to carry, and one of them said " you used to work at the prison, and the inmates out there try to tell you your job, did you like that? well thats what your doing to us, and we have been pretty cool with you. (like i had done something wrong that they wouldnt be cool)

I said i know, i been pretty cool with you too, to which he also agreed. At this point it pretty much ended with another warning that if i was out carrying and they got a call the same thing would probably happen, and that i should make sure i have my id with me or next time i could be put in handcuffs til they could identify who i am. (i asked if that would be a terry stop and never got a straight answer, but the cop seem to get kinda pissy at this point knowing that what he was suggesting was a violation of 4th amendment and i knew it) my gun was given back to me after they made it 'Safe" unchambered the round, drop the clip and gave it all back to me. And that i could reload it after they left. which i did. ill add more if i remember it. I am going to request info on the stop/ call and see wht was said.



edited for some breaks
 

Vandal

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
557
Location
Spokane, Washington, USA
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Nice to see that the 4th Amendment is dead in Caldwell too. Might be time to get ahold of their supervisor and the LT and let them know they have a couple of cops who deem it reasonable to throw out the the 4th Amendment since they performed both an illegal search and seizure (however temporary) of your personal property, maybe even get a lawyer to send them a nasty-gram about the violation of basic Constitutionally guaranteed rights.

Keep us up to speed. Maybe the cops need a few flyers dropped off on the Chief's desk. Don't forget, cops get pissy when you know more about the law than they do. Next time cite State of Idaho v. Brickley. Case law establishing open carry as legal in Idaho.
 

John Wolver

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Caldwell, Idaho, USA
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yeah im gonna have to take some action, but im going to keep it nice for the time being. i usually dont have trouble, and seeing as i dont what the neighbor said, til i pick up the report friday, if it says, I dont know what crap he said.
 

Eric.

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2009
Messages
45
Location
Boise, , USA
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It's a good thing your neighbor's house is encountered on your regular walking route as it will give him the opportunity to see that his bullying tactics fall short.
 

John Wolver

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Caldwell, Idaho, USA
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widescreen wrote:
When obtaining a report, what all info do you need? Also, does it cost a filing fee or anything like that?
time, date, individuals involved maybe.. or the officer. i dont think it cost anything if its your report, but honestly dont know.
 

MJMcMahon

New member
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
8
Location
Boise, Idaho, USA
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It's unfortunate that the PD didn't simply inform the complaining neighbor that you were well within your rights to carry....even more unfortunate that people see a holstered gun and automatically assume bad intent or that you do it because it makes you "feel something".

I wouldn't have been the least bit surprised to hear of an incident like this in Seattle, where I lived up until January of '08. I'd expected more out of Idahoans. :(
 

wewd

Regular Member
Joined
May 5, 2009
Messages
664
Location
Oregon
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How long was this detention? Did you ask the officers at any time if you were under arrest or if you were being detained? Did they state that you were being detained? Did you ask them why you were being detained? Did they provide reasonable, articulable suspicion that you had broken, were breaking, or were about to break the law? Did you inform them that you were not breaking the law? Did you at any time ask if you were free to go? Did you reasonably believe that you were not free to go? Did any of the officers pat you down? Did they tell you that you were required to identify yourself to them?

You don't have to answer all of these questions in this thread, but you should ask them to yourself to determine how your rights may have been violated, and how you may proceed in a legal claim.

You said they disarmed you. That may be justifiable for officer safety in a legal detention or arrest, but as far as I can tell this was not a legal detention. No crime was being committed and they did not have RAS for a Terry stop.

It seems to me that you were illegally detained, and your fourth amendment rights were violated. Your property was seized, and possibly searched (weapon was disassembled and they may have called in the serial). Your person was seized, because you had a reasonable belief that you were not free to go. The length of the detainment is also a factor. They had no right to stop you for doing something lawful, and they also informed you that they would do the same again if called out. They had no right to detain you, as there was no RAS of a crime being afoot. They had no right to disarm you, as there was no reason for them to contact you in the first place, so the officer safety aspect does not come into play here.

You could, if you wish, pursue a federal civil rights complaint and lawsuit against the officers. I suggest that you go through the usual complaint channels first with the police department as well as any county or state departments that may have oversight here. An official reprimand from an internal affairs investigation would be a good way to discourage these officers and others in their department from illegally detaining a lawful open carrier in the future.

Please read the cases Terry v. Ohio, Florida v. J.L., United States v. Ubiles, and most importantly, St. John v. McColley (New Mexico District Court). The case of St. John is one where an open carrier, who was breaking no law, was physically seized, had his property seized and his person and property searched, and was detained for an extended period of time. All because someone called the cops to report an MWAG. St. John is a great example of a 42 USC 1983 civil rights lawsuit regarding an illegal detention, search and seizure of a lawful open carrier. Mr. St. John is also a member of this forum and posts on the NM board. If you decide to pursue this matter, and I recommend that you do, his case would be a great source of quotes and citations.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
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John Wolver wrote:
yeah im gonna have to take some action, but im going to keep it nice for the time being. i usually dont have trouble, and seeing as i dont what the neighbor said, til i pick up the report friday, if it says, I dont know what crap he said.

Filing a complaint would be in order given the details. Will you be doing that?

What is this "i usually don't have trouble" stuff? You had trouble this evening.
 

John Wolver

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Caldwell, Idaho, USA
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I will hopefully follow up with the chief next week, have a lot going on and trying to get it all done.

Today I spoke with one of the owners of Idaho Pizza Co. He was very ope and receptive. He told me what he heard about our meetings. Somehow, in someway, someone lied or imagined something, but they got the idea we would be showing off our guns to each other at these meeting or something. I set the record straight and asked to meet with all the owners. hopefully soon I will know more about it.
 

GoldCoaster

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2008
Messages
646
Location
Stratford, Connecticut, USA
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Money is what leaves a mark in the memories of those who did the violating. Apologies are cheap. With a nice settlement you could get a bigger pistol to walk the dog with and spread the gospel according to Smith & Wesson.
 

ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
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Have the next BBQ at your house and invite the neighborhood along with the OC-crew.

We can cook some extra dogs and bring some more chipsfor the PD.
 

ecocks

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
1,040
Location
USA
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You know this is a part of that passively aggressive SWAT-team approach we could be taking to provide a gentle education for the community.

Heck, in the last few days, I have OC'd in 2 different bank locations, Golden Corral, Fred Meyer, Impact Guns, Jerry's Restaurant (Fairview - Boise),Albertson's, Cabellas and the Public Library without any problems whatsoever.

I really am wondering these last few days why it is that no one EVER causes any problems or says anything to me about it.

Maybe I need an AR or a tooled leather shoulder rig?
 

Augustin

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Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
337
Location
, ,
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wewd wrote:
How long was this detention? Did you ask the officers at any time if you were under arrest or if you were being detained? Did they state that you were being detained? Did you ask them why you were being detained? Did they provide reasonable, articulable suspicion that you had broken, were breaking, or were about to break the law? Did you inform them that you were not breaking the law? Did you at any time ask if you were free to go? Did you reasonably believe that you were not free to go? Did any of the officers pat you down? Did they tell you that you were required to identify yourself to them?

wewd,

Nice post! I was going to reply to John's story, but after reading your thorough and accurateanalysis, why bother?

AUGustin
 

jdgypsy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2009
Messages
185
Location
was Meridian ID, just moved to Killeen, Texas, USA
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Ed,

I'm with you. I seem to never get bothered by anti-gun folks, strange. I went into Cabelas and ignored the "warning sign" the one where they ask you check gun at service counter. I think it is if you are planning on dealing with the gun it self, but I walked around and had no issues, no looks.
I OC everyday and no where have I had a problem. No sure why. Not to say that I don't think the public needs education, they do. I am all for that. Let see what IDPC says this afternoon when we walk in there. That may tell us something. If we are in there and not a word is said to us, I think I will stop and talk to the manager on the way out and ask why the group was turned away and we were let in. See what the answer is then.
 

John Wolver

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Caldwell, Idaho, USA
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So Its been awhile since I have posted in this thread, most however know I have still been busy. In the last 2 weeks I have had a target on me and have been stopped 3 times by Nampa pd. It is my fault, no citations were given and the officers were all decent guys, all had strong 2A beliefs. I found this out because while I was talking to them, I notified them I was carrying. This caused no problems, no ruckus was raised, they took small steps for their safety, such as ask me to show my hands when they walked back up, (which having been in boise more then once i usually do even when i am not carrying). Anyway these three stops went great with no problems. I recommend just having a good attitude and it will be returned.
 
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