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my useless opinions

Woodchuck

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Gordie wrote:
PrayingForWar wrote:
Agent19 wrote:
PrayingForWar wrote:
 I think 10mm will eventually be phased out because .40S&W is basically the same  (ballistically speaking) if I'm not mistaken.
You are mistaken.
People have been saying that nonsense since 1989.

While all the none 10mm shooters have to search far and wide for ammo I haven't had that problem with 10mm.

Can you name one 40S&W loading that can reach 700 ft/lbs of energy from a standard sized (<5" barreled) SA.

I can name several 10mm loads that exceed 750 ft/lbs.
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_25

I have a hand load that propels a 10mm 135gr JHP to 1800fps from a 6" SA that isn't over pressured.
Can you do that with a .40SW without blowing up you and your gun??:lol:



[line]

 
As for the OP's observations regarding caliber I don't agree with them.
All handgun calibers have preformed perfectly and miserably at one time or another.

One man's cannon is another mans water pistols and vice versa.
Carry what makes you feel comfortable and what you can shoot well.

Thanks for setting me straight. I never looked into it myself, just took other people's word for it. I suppose since the fed's switched to .40 it made sense. So if 10mm is superior, why did anyone switch? Why don't more people use it?

From my own experience, I rarely see 10mm period, let alone training ammo, but the again, I don't use it, so I never really look for it. Thanks for the info though, perhaps I'll look into a new caliber.
10 mm was considered to have to heavy of recoil.  Reduce the load and shorten the case, you get .40 S&W.

And that's why us 10mm guys call 40 s&w the 40 short and weak.

Same bullet, shorter casing and weaker load.
 

Marco

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McX wrote:
So what's a .41 cal like?

Imho, if introduced before the .357mag/44mag it would have stood a better chance.

The lack of a good loading caused the demise of this excellent caliber.

It offers reduced recoil and a flatter trajectory compared to .44mag with similar ballistics and out performs the .357mag for Hunting situations.



The caliber stillneeds a good SD loading, the Win ST w/170gr at 1250 is okay but not great.
I would go with a GD/GS:
135gr @ 1800 fps
165gr @ 1450 fps
180gr @ 1600+ fps
And a 180/190 gr JFP @ 1600+fps for field use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.41_Magnum


[line]

As for your question I was speaking about 10mm not 10 mm mag.

10mm mag propels a 180gr JHP to >1600fps
 

Nutczak

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the .41that I had was a Desert Eagle, it was great gun, but totally uncarryable due to its size and weight. I had both the 6", and the 10" barrel for it, and a holographic sight sitting on top of it. I tried tactical holsters, bandolier holsters, and nothing I tried made that a carryable gun. Shooting a gas-operated semi-auto pistol of that weight is really a treat..

I had to part withmy Desert Eagledue to a medical/financial emergency and I really really miss that gun!:cry::cry:I hope to be able to replace it one of these days, and in the same caliber.
It's replacement was a .40 Springfield XDm Bi-tone (OD Green & Black)

If anyone else shoots .41 Mag, I have at least 100 rounds of fresh brass that has been sized and primed, and another 100-150 rounds of once-fired brass that has been cleaned, sized & primed. and another 100-150 rounds of loaded ammunition with Hornady XTP/JHP's on top. I also have an unopenedbox of hornady.41 XTPs that I purchased to load before I was forced to part with that gun.
 

crisisweasel

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Pima County, Arizona, USA
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Trendy, perhaps, but 9mm is anything but "cute."

One of the most anti-gun - possibly the single most anti-gun - congressperson is on office because of the LIRR massacre (Carolyn McCarthy - her husband was one of the victims.) Remember Colin Ferguson? He murdered six people and wounded nineteen before he was stopped, with a Ruger P-89.

You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson_(convict)

Is 9mm the best round for self defense? Maybe not. It is, in fact, a documented deadly round. Is it as deadly as other rounds? There is a lot of theorizing on that issue, and a lot of unverified anecdotes ("this ex-cop I know said..."), but little hard evidence. There is no round in existence for civilian-ownable firearms which hasn't failed, in some circumstance, to do the job.

Seung-Hui Cho murdered 32 people with a Glock 9mm and a Walther .22LR.

Cute?

Really?
 

Flintlock

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crisisweasel wrote:
Trendy, perhaps, but 9mm is anything but "cute."

One of the most anti-gun - possibly the single most anti-gun - congressperson is on office because of the LIRR massacre (Carolyn McCarthy - her husband was one of the victims.) Remember Colin Ferguson? He murdered six people and wounded nineteen before he was stopped, with a Ruger P-89.

You can read about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Ferguson_(convict)


And that was 16 years ago. Ammunition technology has advance in leaps and bounds since that time as avidenced by the slayings at VA Tech by Cho.
 

CommonMan101

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May 20, 2009
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Dallas, Texas, USA
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smash29 wrote:
What is a 10mm Mag? Never heard of it.

Ditto. Until today.


10mm mag... Talk about oddballniche ammo.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Handgun/Standarddata/40Cal(10mm)/10mm%20Magnum%20pages%20124%20and%20125.pdf

Looks like a really, really, REALLYsmall market for that. Doesn't look like somethingany avg person would pick for daily SD use.

I own a Glock20. Awesome gun. Have conversion barrels so I can shoot 40s&w and 357sig out of it too. Easy to find some kind of ammoyou can shoot if SHTF. Easy to reload too. The range of possible loads is greater than most other handguns too.

I picked the Glock20 because it was like having a 357mag (close ballistic equivilent)in semi-auto form with 15 rounds per magazine compared to the avg 357mag having 6 per cylinder ( 357Desert Eagle cost too much and I wasn't convinced of it's reliability). I wanted to hunt hogs with agun that could take the roughness of being in the woods a lotAND have a reliable SD weapon.

I think it would be fair to call the 10mm a 40s&w-Mag. If you wanted to. The diff between them is like the diff between a 38sp and 357mag - same bullet, longer casing, more powder, bigger bang, deeper penetration.

The 10mm will live a long life because people like me won't let it die. We know awesome when we see it.

Love my G20

Doesn't mean I won't get many other smaller calibers to join it at some point. CC is the only option around here when out in public so all the smaller guns have a better chance of being carried by me in the future than the G20. For now it stays nearby either in the truck or on the night stand. I go on many private properties to do my work and getting permissions would get awkward and may lose me customers. At least my truck is still my property wherever it goes.

Really dislike having to ask permission to protect myself - whether from the Gov or my customers - but that's the way it is in TX. For now.

P.S. I find it odd that TX has a "gun nut" reputation when we can't open carry and only recently had the issue of having a gun in the car relaxed a bit. I never understood why we couldn't have a gun for protection in the car (I'm screwed royally if my truck gets jacked with all my biz equipment on it) but someone from out of state could drive through with theirs in the glove box ready for action - be it good or bad.
 

Dreamer

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I know I'm getting into this one a little late, but as a previous 10mm owner and enthusiast, I feel I need to chime in...

I owned one of the original versions of the Mk VI Colt Delta Elites in stainless. It was a marvelous pistol. The all-steel construction and match-grade barrel made it nice and hefty. I installed a Videki trigger, Wilson full-length 2-piece Dwyer "Group-Gripper" guide rod and Wilson Shok-Buf pads in it, and to be honest, even with +P loads (yes, they did in fact make +P 10mm rounds, and they were HOT, although totally over-the-top) it had less recoil than a "premium" standard-pressure .45acp in a stock 1911.

I always thought my Delta was the best gun I owned, and it was. (until I got hip to Para Ords, and had enough scratch to have one custom built by a top-shlf gunsmith like John Novak.)

But if I had a few grand to throw at a new 1911-style pistol, I'd be ALL OVER the new Colt Deltas, and I'd ship it off to Novaks to get tuned to my specs.

The 10mm got a bad rap mostly because of the poor choice the FBI made when they briefly switched to the S&W 10mm. They had a LOT of problems with that platform--rail wear, slide failures, feed and jam issues--that piece was just a colossal failure on all counts. It's light weight just added to the bad press, because it was a punishing gun to shoot, and had tremendous perceived recoil. The Bureau (and the gun press, and civilian owners who didn't understand the 10mm) all blamed the round, saying it was "too powerful" and that it was "over powered". The fact of the matter was that the original S&W 10mm was built on a 9mm receiver, and it just wasn't engineered to handle the round. The guns literally beat themselves to pieces. If the FBI had adopted the Colt Delta Elite, chances are they would have used them for a decade or more as service-issue sidearms, rather than phasing the 10mm out after about one year.

And shortly after the original S&W 10mm came out, Glock released a 10mm, which also had some problems. Even though Glock had the presence of mind to build their 10mm on their .45acp platform, the recoil form the rounds tended to cause the rails to work loose in the polymer frames, and they had ALL sorts of problems, including a fe catastrophic failures in the field. I was working for a DOJ contractor at the time, and did the graphic design on some of the reports. Glock seems to have figured out the problems with their 10mm though, and the current ones seem to be much more durable and reliable. But if it were my dime, I'd still buy a steel-frame 10mm over any polymer frame pistol that sported a 10mm stamp on it's slide...

The 1911 platform is sort of presciently purpose-built for the 10mm. It's beefy, heavy, and has all-metal construction with nice, strong, thick rails and a VERY solid slide. The only other 10mm platform that is arguably better-suited to 10mm is the original Bren-Ten, and that pistol was purpose-built from the ground up to handle the round. And on top of that, the Bren-Ten is just an ultra-cool looking piece. Supposedly VLTOR is working on a Bren clone, calling their version the "Fortis", and it was received with much fanfare at the 2008 Shot Show, but not much has been heard about it since. We 10mm enthusiasts wish VLTOR would start cranking these out--it would be nice to have a new BrenTen on the market. The Colt Delta is a great gun, but the Bren has it all over the Colt in terms of looks and style...

And saying that that 10mm and the .40 are ballistically similar because they have the same diameter is like saying that a standard-pressure .38 Special is ballistically similar to a +P .357 Magnum. I mean, they are the same diameter, right?...

The 10mm is basically a .40 magnum, and in a full-length 1911, it's more like a .40 magnum +P.

All that said, there is a reason why 15-year-old Colt Deltas are currently selling on the used market for MORE than the new Deltas are priced retail--it is a fantastic pistol. It is reliable, durable, easy to shoot, and VERY accurate and effective. The 10mm is a very good round, but you have to use it in a pistol that is appropriate to it's power and pressures...
 
M

McX

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Sweet. Purely Sweet. Like Christmas......with guns. So who on here's gonna buy my Multitude of HiPoints, SO I can get this rascal?
 

Dreamer

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McX wrote:
ahh, back to our original topic. Sorry about the rant guys. I'm having a hard time finding any serious heavy load shotgun shells. Birdshot is everywhere. I hears 00 buck is now illegal?

Not here in NC. I just bought a 5-round box of Federal Premium Vital-Shok 00 buck 3" 12ga shells for $5.95 and a 25 round box of 2.5" 00 buck Remington in 12ga for $11.95 at WalMart...

And I also recently picked up a 25-round box of #2 Federal Premium 12ga for about $18.
 

The Wolfhound

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!0mm spawned .40S&W. !0 mm was too hot a load for some shooters and the FBI needed a similar performance round just toned down. A shorter case meant smaller magazine stacks and a smaller grip was possible. At its most powerful loading it is still 10mm "lite". !0mm can be loaded (and is loaded for hunting) much hotter than .40S&W. Where did this 00Buck illegal nonsense come from? I just left my local "Wally World and there was plenty of 00Buck on the shelf.
 

Flintlock

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Dreamer wrote:
And saying that that 10mm and the .40 are ballistically similar because they have the same diameter is like saying that a standard-pressure .38 Special is ballistically similar to a +P .357 Magnum. I mean, they are the same diameter, right?...

The 10mm is basically a .40 magnum, and in a full-length 1911, it's more like a .40 magnum +P.
I ama fellow 10mm enthusiast andthis is aunique, butaccurate description of the power of the 10mm.Thank you for posting this.
 
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