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Thread: how to open car carry?

  1. #1
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    im wondering how to legally open carry in a car or truck

    ideally id like to have my unloaded pistol with an unloaded mag inside, in a holster, sitting on my passenger or rear seat in plain view along with loaded magazines in a separate magazine holster sitting right next to the firearm (not touching)
    is there any code or case law that prohibits this?

    would the passenger floorboard of a car be ok as long as it dosent slide under the seat?

    also if i don't want to open carry while i drive, when i store my unloaded pistol along with separate loaded magazines inside the same locked container do i need to keep this container out of reach while im driving? in my truck basically anywhere is within reach of the driver

    thanks for your help

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    As long as you are not within 1000' of a school, you are legal. However, you better have a voice recorder if you are pulled over.

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    Safest bet would be that someone looking in either side window should be able to see the gun plainly, so on the floorboard would probably not be best. If you have to disclose you have a gun in the car and you have to reach down to the floorboard where the officer can't see it, they're probably not going to be too happy (not that they'll be thrilled anyway!)

    Most common recommendations are either on the dashboard or on the passenger seat.

    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    When you're not OC, the gun must still remain unloaded and be in a secure locked container (locked backpack/range bag, metal case, etc.) I'm personally unsure about the loaded magazines being inside the same locked container - even if it's legal I'd be careful that there's not a situation where the magazine and gun could slide around and the mag end up anywhere in the magwell.

    Of course the biggest problem with OC in your vehicle is avoiding school zones. If you get pulled over after you passed any sort of sign that indicated a school was near by, they may have you - or at least will try to get for violating a school zone saying that you should have known, given the signage. I guess this depends on where you live, as to how much time avoiding school zones would add to your travels.

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    Lomic wrote:
    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    what is the norm here? to keep an emtpy mag inside the mag-well or no mag

    i just thought it might be slightly safer in the eyes of an officer, since popping out the empty mag is one extra step id have to take before id be able to discharge the gun. also i tend keep both loaded magazines and my gun locked in the same case or bag, and i thought keeping an empty mag in the gun might make it harder for a cop that dosent know the law to say that the gun is loaded because of the extra loaded mags being so close to the firearm.. also maybe it could even prevent any nearby loaded magazine from somehow finding its way into the mag well, or keeping anything out of your magwell for that matter.


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    The unloaded mag in the mag well serves two purposes. One is to keep the appearance of a loaded weapon. You don't necessarily want to advertise to the world that your weapon is not loaded. Cops have to assume the weapon is loaded no matter what and will verify that with a 12031e check. The other purpose is to remove any ambiguity as to which magazine was inserted into the weapon. When I OC I have three magazines on my person, two of them loaded on the opposite side of my body from my weapon. That is 20 total rounds of ammunition for feeding devices capable of holding a total of 30 rounds. It would be evidence in your favor if you somehow found yourself in a situation without any independent witnesses and an officer accusing you of having a loaded mag in the weapon. Not that that is likely to happen but it is not outside the realm of possibility. As to the unloaded mag increasing load times, I have not found that to be the case. I can very easily operate the mag release during the draw and still be able to slap in a loaded mag at the proper time. Now if your weapon does not have drop-free magazines that will obviously slow you down but most should not have that problem with their modern weapons.
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    warmvalley wrote:
    Lomic wrote:
    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    what is the norm here? to keep an emtpy mag inside the mag-well or no mag

    i just thought it might be slightly safer in the eyes of an officer, since popping out the empty mag is one extra step id have to take before id be able to discharge the gun. also i tend keep both loaded magazines and my gun locked in the same case or bag, and i thought keeping an empty mag in the gun might make it harder for a cop that dosent know the law to say that the gun is loaded because of the extra loaded mags being so close to the firearm.. also maybe it could even prevent any nearby loaded magazine from somehow finding its way into the mag well, or keeping anything out of your magwell for that matter.
    If you want the best of both worlds, then get one of these:



    CENTER OF MASS GUN SAFE

    Just have the combinationone number away from being open. It is just as fast to remove the gun from this and load it as it would be to drop an empty mag a load the firearm. And it avoids the pesky school zone issue. You could essentially leave your gun laying in the safe with the lid open (open carry in the car) and if approaching a school zone, or being pulled over, just close the lid and spin the combo. 12026.1 compliance is achieved.



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    So it is perfectly legal (outside of a school zone of course) to UOC in a holster on a person while driving a vehicle?

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    SouthBayr wrote:
    So it is perfectly legal (outside of a school zone of course) to UOC in a holster on a person while driving a vehicle?
    PC 12025 (the concealed weapon law) specifically exempts handguns openly carried in a belt holster from being considered concealed. It does not differentiate between carry as a pedestrian and vehicle carry. I suppose if the weapon is obscured by the seat and/or seatbelt it could still be considered concealed but I have not seen any case law on that.
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    warmvalley wrote:
    im wondering how to legally open carry in a car or truck

    Legally, there is no difference if you're driving or walking down the road.

    ideally id like to have my unloaded pistol with an unloaded mag inside, in a holster, sitting on my passenger or rear seat in plain view along with loaded magazines in a separate magazine holster sitting right next to the firearm (not touching)
    is there any code or case law that prohibits this?
    " "would the passenger floorboard of a car be ok as long as it dosent slide under the seat?
    First, I strongly urge you not to have your weapon on the floor. It would be too easy for it to slide under the seat. And it would also possibly be tempting to a dishonest officer to claim it was under the seat, even if it was not. I also discourage seat/dash carry. If you have to swerve or brake suddenly, it could mean your firearm going tumbling about the vehicle. I suggest carrying in a way that would prevent the firearm from becoming concealed even in a rollover. (I'm rather risk averse, and prefer to leave nothing to chance.)

    The firearm and full mags can even be touching, as long as they aren't touching in a way that allows the feeding of ammunition into the chamber (ref People v Clark)

    also if i don't want to open carry while i drive, when i store my unloaded pistol along with separate loaded magazines inside the same locked container do i need to keep this container out of reach while im driving? in my truck basically anywhere is within reach of the driver

    There is no law requiring this. It is common FUD spread by LE and gun shop owners.

    thanks for your help
    (my comments in bold; sorry for hack job on formatting - this forum doesn't do well with editing.)
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    wewd wrote:
    SouthBayr wrote:
    So it is perfectly legal (outside of a school zone of course) to UOC in a holster on a person while driving a vehicle?
    PC 12025 (the concealed weapon law) specifically exempts handguns openly carried in a belt holster from being considered concealed. It does not differentiate between carry as a pedestrian and vehicle carry. I suppose if the weapon is obscured by the seat and/or seatbelt it could still be considered concealed but I have not seen any case law on that.
    My 'detention' by Turlock PD in '07 was this exact sitution. My holstered firearm was about 95% concealed by the center console, and another 5% concealed by my arm resting on top of it. IMO, I wouldn't worry about visual obstructions; the 'open holster' exemption is pretty clear.

    (Disclaimer: this is not legal advice; your results may vary.)
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    I am inclined to agree with you, CA_Lib, but I still wonder if that theory has ever been tested in a court case. I'm not really interested in being the guinea pig.
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    SouthBayr wrote:
    So it is perfectly legal (outside of a school zone of course) to UOC in a holster on a person while driving a vehicle?
    Yeah, and in unincorporated areas you can open carry loaded provided you are not in a "public place" where the County has banned shooting.

    The problem remains of course, school zoes, and knowlegde of County ordinances.

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    A captain with my local sheriff's dept. tried to tell me that it is Illegal to OC loaded in unincorporated areas. I was contacted the other day for OCing and will undoubtedly be subject to an IA since I am employed by this very sheriff's dept. Go figure. It's election season and somebody needs to be made an example. I'm preparing for my political "short drop with a sudden stop". LOL.

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    grumpy wrote:
    A captain with my local sheriff's dept. tried to tell me that it is Illegal to OC loaded in unincorporated areas. I was contacted the other day for OCing and will undoubtedly be subject to an IA since I am employed by this very sheriff's dept. Go figure. It's election season and somebody needs to be made an example. I'm preparing for my political "short drop with a sudden stop". LOL.
    I'm guessing you are a non-sworn employee, since sworn officers are exempt from 12031 at all times...

    Keep us updated with any information that you and your attorney are comfortable releasing.

    ETA: Please post a new topic so more people will see what's going on; we're here to help any way we can, but if your problem is buried in another thread, it won't get much attention.
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    so we can UOC in a car in California? that doesn't sound right.

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    I wanted clarification about the gun laws in San Diego county, so I emailed the Distirct attorney, Here is the text of my email.

    I am trying to get clarification on gun laws in San Diego county. I emailed the DOJ

    about the open carry unloaded laws in Calif and they suggested I contact you

    about it.

    Lets assume I am in the local supermarket carrying an unloaded pistol in a belt

    holster (visible) and have a ammo clip on the belt (visible). Would I be in violation

    of any law?

    Also, would I be in violation of any law if I were driving in my car, carrying

    unconcealed, unloaded?

    Thanks for your attention to this matter.

    Here is the reply I recieved.

    Concealed Firearms: Subject to certain exceptions, the general rule in California

    is that it is illegal to carry a firearms concealed in a vehicle or concealed upon

    ones’ person (Penal Code 12025.) Our website fully explains the procedures as to

    how one may apply for a CCW.

    Open Carry: Unloaded weapons may be carried in belt holsters or transported

    openly in a vehicle, which are not concealed and do not fall under the general

    rule prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms (Penal Code 12025(f).

    In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded, peace officers are

    authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a

    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or

    prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. (Penal Code 12031(3)). Refusal to

    allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm constitutes probable cause for arrest for

    violation of Penal Code Section 12031.

    Loaded Firearms: A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she

    carries it on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any

    public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street

    in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory. (Penal Code 12031.)

    Possession of a Firearm While Wearing a Mask: It is a crime to possess a firearm

    in a public place or on any public street while masked so as to hide the identity of

    the person carrying the firearm. (Penal Code 12040).
    A citizen may not be required to offer a ―good and substantial reason-- why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The rightĎs existence is all the reason he needs.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    warmvalley wrote:
    Lomic wrote:
    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    what is the norm here? to keep an emtpy mag inside the mag-well or no mag

    i just thought it might be slightly safer in the eyes of an officer, since popping out the empty mag is one extra step id have to take before id be able to discharge the gun.¬* also i tend keep both loaded magazines and my gun locked in the same case or bag, and i thought keeping an empty mag in the gun might make it harder for a cop that dosent know the law to say that the gun is loaded because of the extra loaded mags being so close to the firearm.. also maybe it could even prevent any nearby loaded magazine from somehow finding its way into the mag well, or keeping anything out of your magwell for that matter.
    If you want the best of both worlds, then get one of these:



    CENTER OF MASS GUN SAFE

    Just have the combination¬*one number away from being open.¬* It is just as fast to remove the gun from this and load it as it would be to drop an empty mag a load the firearm.¬* And it avoids the pesky school zone issue.¬*¬*¬* You could essentially leave your gun laying in the safe with the lid open (open carry in the car) and if approaching a school zone, or being pulled over, just close the lid and spin the combo.¬* 12026.1 compliance is achieved.

    ¬*
    Decoligny,

    would this gun case be good to use for "plan b" as well? Say you have a range bag, but "locking" it is a bit of a problem. You can stick the pistol in this little case, lock it, and put it in the bag. If so, would you have to put any loaded magazines in this locked case as well? or can they go in the "unlocked" bag?

    Instead of just hijacking this thread, i'll ask a question pertaining to this discussion...

    So essentially, this gun case is really the best way to carry in the car. If you are carrying in a holster, there is a good chance a LEO can claim the firearm as being concealed (because of seat belt, center consoles, arm rests, etc...), but if you have this case, and you get pulled over, you can just as easily close it up, and lock it... then you have a firearm in a locked container... and its extremely portable, light-weight, and complies with the law. genius.

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    awesome!!! i just copied and pasted ur emailwith a little editand sent it to Sacramento's DA Office, i am sure i will get the same response. here is my email.

    To:
    daoffice@sacda.org

    I am trying to get clarification on gun laws in Sacramento County, specificallyOpen Carry.

    Lets assume I am in the local supermarket carrying an unloaded pistol in a belt

    holster (visible) and have a ammo clip on the belt (visible). Would I be in violation

    of any law?

    Also, would I be in violation of any law if I were driving in my car, carrying

    unconcealed, unloaded in the same manner?

    Thanks for your attention to this matter.


    I am trying to get clarification on gun laws in Sacramento County, specificallyOpen Carry.

    Lets assume I am in the local supermarket carrying an unloaded pistol in a belt

    holster (visible) and have a ammo clip on the belt (visible). Would I be in violation

    of any law?

    Also, would I be in violation of any law if I were driving in my car, carrying

    unconcealed, unloaded in the same manner?

    Thanks for your attention to this matter.

  19. #19
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    I just ordered one...

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    Me too.

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    J.A.G. wrote:
    So essentially, this gun case is really the best way to carry in the car. If you are carrying in a holster, there is a good chance a LEO can claim the firearm as being concealed (because of seat belt, center consoles, arm rests, etc...), but if you have this case, and you get pulled over, you can just as easily close it up, and lock it... then you have a firearm in a locked container... and its extremely portable, light-weight, and complies with the law. genius.
    You can also get a backpack with a pouch about that size that can be locked. My set up is visually unique enough that I won't post pictures of it online, but unless I pointed it out to you, you wouldn't notice the padlock or have reason to believe that it contained a firearm. I do recall reading that there is case law that says that 12031e applies to containers designed to hold guns. In other words, if it is reasonably suspected that your locked container has a gun in it, you can't refuse a search of it under 12031e. A locked backpack pouch however could contain anything of value and probably wouldn't even be noticed. I had my bag on the passenger seat the last time I was pulled over and the officer didn't give it a second thought. Get pulled over with a COM safe or a GunVault next to you and you may find it will become the center of attention. Even if you refuse to answer questions, fishing expeditions SUCK.

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    Decoligny wrote:
    warmvalley wrote:
    Lomic wrote:
    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    what is the norm here? to keep an emtpy mag inside the mag-well or no mag

    i just thought it might be slightly safer in the eyes of an officer, since popping out the empty mag is one extra step id have to take before id be able to discharge the gun. also i tend keep both loaded magazines and my gun locked in the same case or bag, and i thought keeping an empty mag in the gun might make it harder for a cop that dosent know the law to say that the gun is loaded because of the extra loaded mags being so close to the firearm.. also maybe it could even prevent any nearby loaded magazine from somehow finding its way into the mag well, or keeping anything out of your magwell for that matter.
    If you want the best of both worlds, then get one of these:



    CENTER OF MASS GUN SAFE

    Just have the combinationone number away from being open. It is just as fast to remove the gun from this and load it as it would be to drop an empty mag a load the firearm. And it avoids the pesky school zone issue. You could essentially leave your gun laying in the safe with the lid open (open carry in the car) and if approaching a school zone, or being pulled over, just close the lid and spin the combo. 12026.1 compliance is achieved.

    Doesn't the ammo have to be seperate from the gun when locked in a container?Like for instance, gun in the locked container, ammo in the back seat?

  23. #23
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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    Decoligny wrote:
    warmvalley wrote:
    Lomic wrote:
    As long as a loaded magazine isn't in the gun, you should be okay, but remember the magazines must remain plainly visible as well. Is there a reason you want an unloaded magazine in the gun? To give the impression to a BG that it is loaded? I know some people OC with an empty magazine in but it just seems like it would increase your load time, especially in a stressful situation.

    what is the norm here? to keep an emtpy mag inside the mag-well or no mag

    i just thought it might be slightly safer in the eyes of an officer, since popping out the empty mag is one extra step id have to take before id be able to discharge the gun. also i tend keep both loaded magazines and my gun locked in the same case or bag, and i thought keeping an empty mag in the gun might make it harder for a cop that dosent know the law to say that the gun is loaded because of the extra loaded mags being so close to the firearm.. also maybe it could even prevent any nearby loaded magazine from somehow finding its way into the mag well, or keeping anything out of your magwell for that matter.
    If you want the best of both worlds, then get one of these:



    CENTER OF MASS GUN SAFE

    Just have the combinationone number away from being open. It is just as fast to remove the gun from this and load it as it would be to drop an empty mag a load the firearm. And it avoids the pesky school zone issue. You could essentially leave your gun laying in the safe with the lid open (open carry in the car) and if approaching a school zone, or being pulled over, just close the lid and spin the combo. 12026.1 compliance is achieved.

    Doesn't the ammo have to be seperate from the gun when locked in a container?Like for instance, gun in the locked container, ammo in the back seat?
    Outside of the gun only.

  24. #24
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    thanks, say i have a lot of ammo, I don't need all of the ammo to be locked up too do I? only the gun, correct?



    Oh by the way if anybody likes call of duty modern warfare, I am already playing the second one.

  25. #25
    Regular Member mjones's Avatar
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    Streetbikerr6 wrote:
    Doesn't the ammo have to be seperate from the gun when locked in a container?Like for instance, gun in the locked container, ammo in the back seat?
    Nope... Presuming you are not carrying them both with the intent to commit a felony and you are not in the prohibited areas of Sacramento.

    ...and I have it on good authority that it makes both the gun and the ammo happier when they travel together thus resulting in less felt recoil and tighter groups!

    On a more serious note; This is a common misunderstanding of'loaded' due to the following CA Penal Code:

    12031. (a) (1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when
    he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a
    vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an
    incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a
    prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
    (g) A firearm shall be deemed to be loaded for the purposes of
    this section when there is an unexpended cartridge or shell,
    consisting of a case that holds a charge of powder and a bullet or
    shot, in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including, but
    not limited to, in the firing chamber, magazine, or clip thereof
    attached to the firearm; except that a muzzle-loader firearm shall be
    deemed to be loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powder
    charge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder.

    This sort of makes it sounds like a magazine with rounds in it is a loaded firearm. Unfortunately the subordinate clause gets forgotten in reference to the magazine which is that it must be 'attached to the firearm'

    People vs Clark clarified this a bit further and held that that ammo can even be attached to the firearm provided that it is 'not in a position to be fired' Think of a sidesaddle on a shotgun...


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