Racine,WI: Journal Times Editorial says unlawfully arrested citizen does not have moral high ground

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Setting up the police in a sting like operation is "unacceptable"? Don'tpolice do that all the time? Haven't some famous civil rights cases been "set up"? Rosa Parks?Roe V Wade?

Frank answered questions about the raccoon and the shooting of the BB gun as well as how an individual had scooped it up with a shovel. His refusalto give HIS OWN personal information as well asrefuse to answer questions pertaining to himself AND his firearm ishis right. It is beyond usor anyone else to degrade to some possible criminal or even sinister motive his right to do so.

"Be not intimidated... nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy,chicanery and cowardice." John Adams, 2nd President of the USA

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my perspective wrote:

The wording that I highlighted in red is the type of sneaky wording I detest. It says to me that his action(s) represent all OC-ers'. It doesn't say "if true, it means that he intentionally made false statements...".It reads that open carry advocates made false statements..., thus marring the OC community as a whole. Unfortunately, the actions of any single OC-er do represent the entire OC community in the public's eyes.

You hit the nail on the head!

Really???? Isn't that exactly how the majority of this site's posters talk about LE?

That's why this site is considered a cop bashing site and is partly to blame for losing it's credibility and seeming extremist.

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Accusing a single OCer of something and then translating it to the entire movement reeks of desperation.

Accusing countless cops of well-documented malfeasance going all the way to the federal court system in some cases is another thing altogether. They are a disgrace to their uniform, and should be held to account by their partners, but the thin blue line far too often prevents justice.

In one germane case, SDPD tried some entrapment of their own by trying to get OCers to go onto government property to violate CA PC 171(b).

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Let's just say that it would be very nice if the underhanded, illegal and immoral actions of police everywhere were as rare as stupid moves by those ordinary people who carry a gun.

Can we at least agree on that?

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MamaLiberty wrote:

Let's just say that it would be very nice if the underhanded, illegal and immoral actions of police everywhere were as rare as stupid moves by those ordinary people who carry a gun.

Can we at least agree on that?

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+1

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hopnpop wrote:

my perspective wrote:

The wording that I highlighted in red is the type of sneaky wording I detest. It says to me that his action(s) represent all OC-ers'. It doesn't say "if true, it means that he intentionally made false statements...".It reads that open carry advocates made false statements..., thus marring the OC community as a whole. Unfortunately, the actions of any single OC-er do represent the entire OC community in the public's eyes.

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You hit the nail on the head!

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...As did you. I'm no "cop-hater" and I don'twant to belabeled as one for being a member here. Most of those I converse with are like me, nothing against police, just want them to know what rights we have to excercise. I feel we're on the same team for the most part.

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You are both right, and, there is another perspective, or explanation. When one becomes victim of the errant LEO, one cries out. (S)he cannot be expected to always qualify the comments with praise for the “good” LEOs. So, it looks to many people like LEO bashing. I have always believed that most LEOs are good. All my life, until October 7, 2008, I have considered LEOs to be my friends. That changed that evening. Now, I still believe that there are some good ones, but I must wonder if they are the weak minority or the intimidated majority. For, caring about honor, and the quality of the services performed by their profession, one would think they would be, in groups or individually, pounding on desks down at headquarters or shouting their indignation from the rooftops. From all indications, either they are doing neither or their efforts have been ineffective. Thus, we are left with continuing offenses about which victims and others who care about the victims and the rights of the people will continue to cry out. And, all LEOs will appear to be painted with the same brush. So, the bad ones cause all the good ones to seem bad – guilt by association. So, LEO, if you don’t want to be made, by your colleagues, to look bad, get the errant among you squared away.

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So, LEO, if you don’t want to be made, by your colleagues, to look bad, get the errant among you squared away.

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And - for the very same reasons - when an ordinary person does something really stupid to discredit all gun owners, WE need to be in the front row calling a spade a spade and not making excuses for them.

Sometimes it is very difficult for us to learn the truth - about either one - but we must make an even greater effort to do so... and then "police our own," so to speak.

It cuts both ways.

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+ 1

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MamaLiberty wrote:

 So, LEO, if you don’t want to be made, by your colleagues, to look bad, get the errant among you squared away.

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And - for the very same reasons - when an ordinary person does something really stupid to discredit all gun owners, WE need to be in the front row calling a spade a spade and not making excuses for them.

Sometimes it is very difficult for us to learn the truth - about either one - but we must make an even greater effort to do so... and then "police our own," so to speak.

It cuts both ways.

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We cannot police our own because we are not police. The open carry movement has no formalized correction/punishment system for complaints about people exercising their liberty in ways we do not like, unlike the police, which have many layers of formal systems for complaints about destruction of liberty. (internal affairs, state courts, state police/attorney general, FBI/U.S. attorney general, federal courts...)

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We cannot police our own because we are not police. The open carry movement has no formalized correction/punishment system for complaints about people exercising their liberty in ways we do not like, unlike the police, which have many layers of formal systems for complaints about destruction of liberty. (internal affairs, state courts, state police/attorney general, FBI/U.S. attorney general, federal courts...)

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None of that has anything much to do with what I was talking about. To "police" something, you keep it clean, in order and working right.

We can do that as individuals by being very, very careful to follow the rules of gun safety, courtesy and ethical behavior in our own lives. We can also do that by not making excuses for those who do stupid things that make all gun owners look like maniacs.

The official "police" and other government gun toters can, and should do the same.

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+ 1 and + 1

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MamaLiberty wrote:

We cannot police our own because we are not police. The open carry movement has no formalized correction/punishment system for complaints about people exercising their liberty in ways we do not like, unlike the police, which have many layers of formal systems for complaints about destruction of liberty. (internal affairs, state courts, state police/attorney general, FBI/U.S. attorney general, federal courts...)

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None of that has anything much to do with what I was talking about. To "police" something, you keep it clean, in order and working right.

We can do that as individuals by being very, very careful to follow the rules of gun safety, courtesy and ethical behavior in our own lives. We can also do that by not making excuses for those who do stupid things that make all gun owners look like maniacs.

The official "police" and other government gun toters can, and should do the same.

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Police yourself, then. None of this has anything do with a way to keep those who might cross imagined lines of decency and sanity clean, in order and working right. The government has ways in theory, though seemingly rarely utilized, to do this to its own. As a disorganized movement, we do not.

Making excuses has no effect on the policed status of a disorganized movement. If you want to police OCers; force them to coalesce into a membership organization, and then kick those out who don't toe the party line, fine. SAY THAT.

But you can't herd cats.

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In relation to policing our own, a good example would be the recent banning of a handful (+?) of "members" here due to their incessent "cop-bashing". I'm fully in favor of that, as it's not a secret that this is not an anti-law enforcement organization. Just gotta clean house once in a while.We're for armed good guys, both with and without badges. Is part of our ultimate goal not to just make life a little safer for everybody?

edit: wow was that cliche :lol:

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After reading through several of the comments, one statement comes to mind





YOU CANT FIX STUPID.

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bigdaddy1 wrote:

YOU CANT FIX STUPID.

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Absolutely.

N6ATF doesn't seem to understand that there are many better ways to influence peers and others besides coercion. The best we can do is live our lives as a good example, talk to others to help them understand, and refuse to excuse or shield those who do stupid, dangerous things. Force is not necessary and not desirable, except in self defense.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But that has always been how a free society functions. Utopia is not an option.

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But you can't herd cats.

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Sure you can. Open a can of tuna :lol:

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MamaLiberty wrote:

someone was shooting raccoons and that children were in the neighborhood.

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What does this have to do with anything? I've shot lots of raccoons and other varmints with "children in the neighborhood" - and right beside me too. The story doesn't demonstrate good reason to believe the shooter (if there was one) was actually endangering the children or anyone else.

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It has plenty to do with things. Based on your posts, I'm reasonably confident that I can trust YOU to shoot safely. However, I most certainly can NOT assume the same of any random person. You seem to assume that any random unidentified shooter is following all safety rules. Based on the number of news stories about NDs, that's a pretty dangerous assumption.

Furthermore, what did you shoot raccoons with, and were you within city limits when you shot them? A lot of cities have laws prohiting the discharge of firearms within city limits.

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opencarrybilly wrote:

But you can't herd cats.

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Sure you can. Open a can of tuna :lol:

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That's not herding, that's a bribe! But what if they don't like tuna?

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Flyer22 wrote:

MamaLiberty wrote:

someone was shooting raccoons and that children were in the neighborhood.

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What does this have to do with anything? I've shot lots of raccoons and other varmints with "children in the neighborhood" - and right beside me too. The story doesn't demonstrate good reason to believe the shooter (if there was one) was actually endangering the children or anyone else.

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It has plenty to do with things. Based on your posts, I'm reasonably confident that I can trust YOU to shoot safely. However, I most certainly can NOT assume the same of any random person. You seem to assume that any random unidentified shooter is following all safety rules. Based on the number of news stories about NDs, that's a pretty dangerous assumption.

Furthermore, what did you shoot raccoons with, and were you within city limits when you shot them? A lot of cities have laws prohiting the discharge of firearms within city limits.

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Yes, any random gun owner is following the rules unless he/she demonstrates otherwise. Only THEN does anyone else have any legitimate concern.

Let's see... just based on my comments here you are willing to allow "me" some leaway in defending myself. Thanks.

Let's put this on the other foot, however, and see if it fits. I dont' have ANY idea what kind of shooter you are, or anything else about you. Should I have the option, then, to block your ability to defend yourself until "I" am satisfied about your qualifications?

NO? Gosh, why not?

Life is full of risks and there is no way to remove them all, even if we are each wrapped in cotton batting - or a million "laws." I move through life, traffic, crowds in stores and everywhere else with no guarantee that there are not people around who are careless or stupid or outright criminal and WANT to hurt me.

I've learned in my long life that most people don't want to hurt me, and the stupid and careless mostly hurt themselves. I must be alert and aware to AVOID the stupid and careless as much as the truly criminal... and it makes no difference if they are armed, drive a car or a grocery cart.

The ONLY difference "gun control" of any kind makes is to render more people helpless and vulnerable to those who WOULD harm them. Laws don't really affect the criminals, remember - at least not until the damage is already done.

And, by the way, I live in a place where anyone can legally carry a firearm openly without any restriction beyond the usual federal nonsense. Lots and LOTS of people here have guns. Open carry is accepted and even encouraged. We don't have random shootings or NDs either.

The location of my shooting the varmints is not relevant to the subject here, really, though it was within a small town. The issue is personal sovereignty, the idiot idea of prior restraint, and that the mere presence of children is somehow a limiting or controlling factor in the use of a gun. We didn't have idiot "laws" about where one could fire a gun back then. One did what they needed to do and took responsibility for it, both good and bad.

Prior restraint is both immoral and pointless in preventing risks.

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well said! +1,000

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MamaLiberty wrote:

bigdaddy1 wrote:

YOU CANT FIX STUPID.

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Absolutely.

N6ATF doesn't seem to understand that there are many better ways to influence peers and others besides coercion. The best we can do is live our lives as a good example, talk to others to help them understand, and refuse to excuse or shield those who do stupid, dangerous things. Force is not necessary and not desirable, except in self defense.

Is it perfect? Of course not. But that has always been how a free society functions. Utopia is not an option.

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LMFAO, "coercion", "force", "utopia"?

You said it, not me.

I still don't see anything you have proposed equate to or even come close to policing our own unherdable cats.

Can't fix straw man debating. /unwatch topic