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Thread: VA Man Shoots and Kills Burglar

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    gThis is the first report of a shooting/death incident that took place last night around 11:30 PM. Details are very sketchy and incomplete. But we do know that:

    • Alex Richard Totherow, a neighbor, is dead by gunshot wound.
    • Totherow's neighbor, Mr. X., shot him for being in Mr. X's living room.
    That's about it, so far. Too early to tell if Mr. X was a valiant protector of his wife and child or a nervous Nellie quick shot artist.

    We can't even tell if Totherow had a weapon ("He could have had a knife!," some are already exclaiming...).

    If no weapon, then....uhm....could it be? Yes, it could very well be that the world-famousHankT's Postulateof Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD) will come into play. Here it is for those who mayhave somehow forgotten it:


    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.


    Hmmm, I wonder where the late Mr. Totherow was actually shot?

    Developing...






    Burglar Shot and Killed
    09/19/09 3:47 pm


    Danville - Friday just before 11:30 p.m., Danville Police (web) received a call and responded to an apartment complex at 427 Wooding Avenue for burglary in progress. When officers arrived, they found a man with a gun shoot wound lying in a grassy area near the building. He was transported to Danville Regional Medical Center where he was pronounced dead Saturday at 12:15 a.m. A male, who was occupying a unit in the apartment, says he, his 6-month-old child, and his girlfriend were asleep when he was awakened by the sound of breaking glass. He picked up his firearm, went into the living room area and saw an intruder whom he identified as his next door neighbor, Alex Richard Totherow, 42. The male occupant and Totherow ran from the apartment. That is when the resident fired a shot, which struck Totherow. The case is currently under investigation. Anyone with information is asked to call Danville Crimestoppers.


    http://www.wset.com/news/stories/0909/660794.html


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    Taking from what was said in the article, Mr Badguy was shot while in retreat and outside of the apartment. Bad mojo there...unless he had the 6 mo old in his hands and trying to get away, thats not sounding like a clean defensiveshoot.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    possibly shot in the back? very bad mojo...
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    I'll wait for further developments in this case.

    ATM, with really sketchy info, it doesn't look good for MrX.

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    Laws and such notwithstanding........Good guy alive, scumbag deceased (that means dead).

    Move along. Nothing to see here.

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    stop posting

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    Regular Member KansasMustang's Avatar
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    Does NOT look good, just me sayin' it. I agree with Mr.Mitch but, in truth, as we all know, the perp had withdrawn therefore the threat was no longer there. 911 should have been the most aggressive action taken, along with guarding the breeched entry. But, I wasn't there.
    ‘‘Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.’’ Thomas Jefferson

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    Regular Member Deanimator's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.
    In Ohio, it's a bad strategy to be inside somebody else's home without their permission, armed or otherwise, when they're there. You're considered to be a threat to life and limb. They have no duty to incur ANY risk to see if you're armed or not.

    If you ignore that advice and the occupant shoots you, he'll have the benefit of the doubt, and you'll still be shot.

    If I find you in my home and you do ANYTHING besides run away or stand perfectly still, you're probably going to get shot. I'll almost certainly walk. You will have no cause of action against me.

    Moral of the story: Don't break into occupied dwellings. It's dangerous.
    --- Gun control: The theory that 110lb. women have the "right" to fistfight with 210lb. rapists.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    Deanimator wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    It is a bad strategy to shoot an unarmed person.
    In Ohio, it's a bad strategy to be inside somebody else's home without their permission, armed or otherwise, when they're there. You're considered to be a threat to life and limb. They have no duty to incur ANY risk to see if you're armed or not.

    If you ignore that advice and the occupant shoots you, he'll have the benefit of the doubt, and you'll still be shot.

    If I find you in my home and you do ANYTHING besides run away or stand perfectly still, you're probably going to get shot. I'll almost certainly walk. You will have no cause of action against me.

    Moral of the story: Don't break into occupied dwellings. It's dangerous.

    D, for this discussion, I'll agree with your contention that you'd "walk." Uh, excuse me, I just noticed. You didn't say that you would "walk." You said that you would "almost certainly walk."

    Aha! Yet another confirmation of HankT's Postulateof Civilian Self-Defense (HPCSD) !!

    It's truly amazing how robust and comprehensive the HPCSD is...it always applies!

    Thank you, D.

    P.S. Of course, your point about it being a bad strategy to be inside someone else's house without permission is a very good one. You should make your own postulate on that, D. And, you will find, after you think about it some more .... that both my postulate and yours are not contradictories. They would not even be contraries. They could both be true....






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    STOP POSTING HANK

    hankt = goof with a computer

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    OzarkMountainDaredevil wrote:
    STOP POSTING HANK

    hankt = goof with a computer
    LOL

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    OzarkMountainDaredevil wrote:
    STOP POSTING HANK

    hankt = goof with a computer
    +1

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    OzarkMountainDaredevil wrote:
    STOP POSTING HANK

    hankt = goof with a computer
    LOL. Now you're actually posting something sensible.

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    buster81 wrote:
    OzarkMountainDaredevil wrote:
    STOP POSTING HANK

    hankt = goof with a computer
    LOL. Now you're actually posting something sensible.


    +1
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

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    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    Texas has a law about "Criminal Mischief at night"... Justifiable to shoot them if they're on your property, even if they're outside your dwelling, just messing with your PROPERTY. It goes back to the days of cattle and horse thieves... Still on the books, Still enforced, still happens...


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Regular Member TechnoWeenie's Avatar
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    5$ says he was drunk..... (dead guy)
    Evangelical lessons are provided upon request. Anyone wishing to meet Jesus can just kick in my door.

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    It didn't say if the neighbor/burglar was armed or not.

    What it did suggest and which would be a postulate I would agree with, is that it's a bad idea to shoot a fleeing burglar in the back.

    Still, not enough details, though. It only says they both left the apartment and one was shot.

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    nobucks wrote:
    It didn't say if the neighbor/burglar was armed or not.
    Good point. He ...MIGHT HAVE HAD A KNIFE!



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    I agree with Hank. It is a bad idea to shoot a person who has no arms. You won't get much sympathy from a jury for shooting a handicapped person.

    However, if the person does have arms and they don't have a weapon you may be justified in shooting them :shock:, just depends on the circumstances.

    That's where Hank's postulate is flawed, but he doesn't see that....

    You most certainly are not justified in shootinganyone as they are fleeing from you. Unless of course, they are still shooting at you I suppose. Then the threat hasn't been stopped.Man, that's the problem with these things. They just don't all fit into a nice neat box all the time....



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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    nobucks wrote:
    It didn't say if the neighbor/burglar was armed or not.
    Good point. He ...MIGHT HAVE HAD A KNIFE!

    Even if he were armed, it is very difficult to justify shooting someone that is retreating. There is no more threat.

    Even LE can only shoot a fleeing felon in very strict circumstances: They still pose a substantial threat to the populace; they are stealing nuclear material; or they are in posession of secret material that, if released, endangers the security of the country.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    Well he could also have stolen or made an imprint of the keys before you
    got down to confront him. So he was intending to return again......
    I know if it is the neighbor that has broken in, you can't trust the system
    to protect you. Even if they arrest him, he will be a couple doors down
    while waiting for you to go to work the next day.

    Sad he was so slow in shooting, that he risks jail himself with such
    a no win situation.


  22. #22
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    We can "Monday Morning Quarterback" this thing to death and still come no closer to finding out what happened.

    Anyone have more info? Regardless of the circumstances, I hope this guy finds a good lawyer. He's going to need one.
    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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    State Researcher HankT's Avatar
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    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    Sad he was so slow in shooting, that he risks jail himself with such
    a no win situation.
    He could have easily "won" the situation.

    By just standing by as the "burglar"/neighbor fled, based on the admittedly sketchy information.

    It's not rocket science, SR...

    "Winning" is terminating the threat. Sending the guy off and running would be terminating the threat.

    Of course, if Mr. X felt bad about missing out on an impromptu execution opportunity (IEO), well, that might have motivated him to go running out the door and getting his man. We all know that burglarscannot run 700+ fps....

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    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    HankT wrote:
    SlackwareRobert wrote:
    Sad he was so slow in shooting, that he risks jail himself with such
    a no win situation.
    He could have easily "won" the situation.

    By just standing by as the "burglar"/neighbor fled, based on the admittedly sketchy information.

    It's not rocket science, SR...

    "Winning" is terminating the threat. Sending the guy off and running would be terminating the threat.

    Of course, if Mr. X felt bad about missing out on an impromptu execution opportunity (IEO), well, that might have motivated him to go running out the door and getting his man. We all know that burglarscannot run 700+ fps....
    Hank, Hank, Hank...

    WINNING isn't taking a life.
    WINNING isn't pulling the trigger on a living, breathing human being.

    WINNING is being able to wake up in the morning.
    WINNING is being able to protect your family successfully, even if it means watching the badguy run away.
    WINNING is being able to make the correct decision in a fraction of a second.

    I sincerely doubt you've had to pull the trigger on anything but a target or a defenseless animal. Its a life-changing event. You wouldn't be so cavalier about the taking of human life. You wouldn't saya lotof the inane things you say on this board. You're quite the Internet Commando/Researcher/Investigator, aren't you?


    "If I know that I am headed for a fight, I want something larger with more power, preferably crew-served.
    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
    (unknown 'gun~writer')

    Remington 1911 R1 (Back to Basics)
    SERPA retention or concealed...

    "Those who hammer their guns into plows will plow for those who do not." ~Thomas Jefferson
    (Borrowed from "The Perfect Day" by LTC Dave Grossman)

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