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  1. #1
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    I'm new here. I CC in Central Washington.

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    Welcome to Forum, great place to learn about gun laws related to CC/mostly OC

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    Exactly. I read through some of the other posts and I was impressed by the amount of information compiled. Also, it is a great way to stay up to date and discuss local laws.



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    Welcome to our little group.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Welcome Aboard, Glad you found us
    ~ ENCLAVE vmc ~
    The Enclave is looking for patriotic motorcycle riders in Washington State who support liberty and freedom for all. ~ Check us out!
    ~
    * " To be swayed neither by the opponent nor by his sword is the essence of swordsmanship." - Miyamoto Musashi.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Welcome aboard, now we just need to turn you into an open carrier.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Well, I'm here to learn. I've always felt that concealed carry was a great choice because of the safety. When you have your pistol concealed, there is less of a chance that you may be shot first in the event of a crisis. You would have more opportunity to protect yourself and those around you. A hidden gun is less likely to be grabbed by a thief, criminal or anyone that catches you by surprise with that intent.

    Also; when you carry concealed you don't face a lot of the conflict that I see posted on the threads on this board between store owners, employees and local police. Not that they are in the right, far from it. I like that you all exercise your rights and I believe everyone is entitled to do what makes them feel comfortable and safe.

    Of course I'm here to hear what you all have to say about open carrying. What points do you have for it? (besides the obvious RIGHT to do so)



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    OC is convenient, and also help to deter crime here is a perfect example :

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_to...hlight=us+bank

  9. #9
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Daath 474 wrote:
    Well, I'm here to learn. I've always felt that concealed carry was a great choice because of the safety. When you have your pistol concealed, there is less of a chance that you may be shot first in the event of a crisis. You would have more opportunity to protect yourself and those around you. A hidden gun is less likely to be grabbed by a thief, criminal or anyone that catches you by surprise with that intent.

    Also; when you carry concealed you don't face a lot of the conflict that I see posted on the threads on this board between store owners, employees and local police. Not that they are in the right, far from it. I like that you all exercise your rights and I believe everyone is entitled to do what makes them feel comfortable and safe.

    Of course I'm here to hear what you all have to say about open carrying. What points do you have for it? (besides the obvious RIGHT to do so)

    I am glad you carry and I am for carrying however makes you feel comfortable, but the studies and examples don't make it more "tactical" no matter what folks like SAF say, it actually is a deterrent, I witnessed this at a Starbucks when I was carrying, so had others read Manu's post. John Stossel did a good report , and so did Penn and Teller, criminals don't like armed people, they like sheep. Does the coyote attack the buck with the horns, or the one without?

    I also feel when seconds count, and the adrenaline kicks in I personally don't want to fumble through my clothes when something happens. Hands on the grip and out.

    I also carry a serpa type holster folks can't just grab the gun.

    The conflict is actually far and few between, but if we don't do it now it will just get harder and harder for all who follow us. So I feel a little trouble here in there in the fight for our rights is worth it, think of the Civil rights activist, it would have saved Rosa Parks a lot of trouble if she just sat where she was expected to, but her actions and the actions of many others made life so much better for millions of folks in this country.

    Glad to have you aboard, hope to see you at a meet and you are always welcome open carrying or not, it is fun to be able to meet and hang out with like minded gun folks.

    P.S. Personally feel that because I can is the most important reason.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    One of my main concerns with OC is my local police force. I live in a small town (Wenatchee) where they don't seem to have anything better to do than harass folks. Since I live in a small town and I only travel by train, I no longer own a car (cuts down on gas, insurance, etc. costs) and I walk everywhere that I go. A lot of times I walk late at night, which is one of the big reasons as to why I carry. I've had numerous night jobs or just times when I want to go for a walk. It has seemed like every time I have ever been out, a cop has pulled over to question me for just walking. I always respond with my name, provide ID and tell them that I am just walking. Usually this will get them to leave me alone, sometimes not. I've also had quite a few encounters with nasty officers who had nothing better to do than harass me. They'll ask anything from "where are you going/where did you come from?" to "can I search you?" "are you on or buying drugs?" etc. It's really quite ridiculous. I have a completely clean record and I have never done anything to warrant such attention. I've even had an encounter with a sheriff that insisted I show him my backpack after I declined, citing my rights under the fourth amendment. I pretty much had to ask if I was being detained or not and if I was free to go. I was free to go because I did nothing wrong, but that sheriff and about four other police officers followed me for over five or six blocks that night!

    This all being without open carrying.

    So my concern is really in this: I think that a lot of the time I am being targeted and picked on because of my age and appearance. I'm in my mid twenties, short hair with tattoos and piercings. I don't wear anything ridiculous or obscene, just a simple black t-shirt and jeans most of the time. I do think that the tattoos and piercings are what causes some of the harassment. So I'm concerned that with my appearance and the negative reactions I get from law enforcement just based on that... I might have a little more to fear when open carrying my pistol. I know they can claim that a person was wearing it in an "intimidating" fashion or gave off an appearance of danger or something to that degree. I'm a generally nice and easygoing guy, but as I said, just because of my interests in tattoos and piercings I get the negative stereotype. Though they really have nothing to worry about from someone with NO criminal interest whatsoever, a perfectly clean record and a CPL.

    I'm wondering what kind of experiences any other Washington citizens have had with similar things and if any of you have suggestions that would help if I ever felt like open carrying.

  11. #11
    Regular Member swatspyder's Avatar
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    Daath 474 wrote:
    One of my main concerns with OC is my local police force. I live in a small town (Wenatchee) where they don't seem to have anything better to do than harass folks. Since I live in a small town and I only travel by train, I no longer own a car (cuts down on gas, insurance, etc. costs) and I walk everywhere that I go. A lot of times I walk late at night, which is one of the big reasons as to why I carry. I've had numerous night jobs or just times when I want to go for a walk. It has seemed like every time I have ever been out, a cop has pulled over to question me for just walking. I always respond with my name, provide ID and tell them that I am just walking. Usually this will get them to leave me alone, sometimes not. I've also had quite a few encounters with nasty officers who had nothing better to do than harass me. They'll ask anything from "where are you going/where did you come from?" to "can I search you?" "are you on or buying drugs?" etc. It's really quite ridiculous. I have a completely clean record and I have never done anything to warrant such attention. I've even had an encounter with a sheriff that insisted I show him my backpack after I declined, citing my rights under the fourth amendment. I pretty much had to ask if I was being detained or not and if I was free to go. I was free to go because I did nothing wrong, but that sheriff and about four other police officers followed me for over five or six blocks that night!

    This all being without open carrying.

    So my concern is really in this: I think that a lot of the time I am being targeted and picked on because of my age and appearance. I'm in my mid twenties, short hair with tattoos and piercings. I don't wear anything ridiculous or obscene, just a simple black t-shirt and jeans most of the time. I do think that the tattoos and piercings are what causes some of the harassment. So I'm concerned that with my appearance and the negative reactions I get from law enforcement just based on that... I might have a little more to fear when open carrying my pistol. I know they can claim that a person was wearing it in an "intimidating" fashion or gave off an appearance of danger or something to that degree. I'm a generally nice and easygoing guy, but as I said, just because of my interests in tattoos and piercings I get the negative stereotype. Though they really have nothing to worry about from someone with NO criminal interest whatsoever, a perfectly clean record and a CPL.

    I'm wondering what kind of experiences any other Washington citizens have had with similar things and if any of you have suggestions that would help if I ever felt like open carrying.
    OC, and if you get into trouble, just retain a lawyer and bring a lawsuit against the department for infringing on your rights. Someone here could also send an email to the Chief of the department where you are at with the bulletins and firearms laws.

  12. #12
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    Is there a specific Washington state law that protects my right to open carry if I want to? Where would I find that? That would be useful to remember and be able to present.

  13. #13
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Daath 474 wrote:
    Is there a specific Washington state law that protects my right to open carry if I want to? Where would I find that? That would be useful to remember and be able to present.
    article 1; section 24 of the washington state constitution: the right to bear arms

    the 2nd ammendment to the U.S. constitution: the right to keep and bear arms

    RCW 9.41.270 is as close as youre gonna get to permission to OC.

    if it isnt illegal, then it is legal.
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

    All power is inherent in the people,
    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

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    Welcome!

    Great to see all the new members that seem to be popping up lately. Just last night I was stopped by a gentleman in a Safeway parking lot that admitted to me he concealed carried. He had no idea open carry was even an option. Gave him a card with this site on it so hopefully he will get all the information he needs and might pop up as a member himself.

  15. #15
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    2, 4, 5 A defender wrote:
    Daath 474 wrote:
    Is there a specific Washington state law that protects my right to open carry if I want to? Where would I find that? That would be useful to remember and be able to present.
    article 1; section 24 of the washington state constitution: the right to bear arms

    the 2nd ammendment to the U.S. constitution: the right to keep and bear arms

    RCW 9.41.270 is as close as youre gonna get to permission to OC.

    if it isnt illegal, then it is legal.
    I'm aware of the Washington State Consitution and the 2nd Amendment, but I hadn't had a chance to thoroughly read over RCW 9.41.270 until today. Thank you for posting it! This is what it reads:

    (1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.

    (2) Any person violating the provisions of subsection (1) above shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor. If any person is convicted of a violation of subsection (1) of this section, the person shall lose his or her concealed pistol license, if any. The court shall send notice of the revocation to the department of licensing, and the city, town, or county which issued the license.

    (3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:

    (a) Any act committed by a person while in his or her place of abode or fixed place of business;

    (b) Any person who by virtue of his or her office or public employment is vested by law with a duty to preserve public safety, maintain public order, or to make arrests for offenses, while in the performance of such duty;

    (c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person;

    (d) Any person making or assisting in making a lawful arrest for the commission of a felony; or

    (e) Any person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The thing that concerns me is that any officer may be able to say that just by simply carrying it, it appears that I am trying to intimidate or warrant alarm by the public. It's basically his word against mine and of course he's going to win in a court of law. That scares the hell out of me and I don't want to lose my right to carry!

  16. #16
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    Daath 474 wrote:
    The thing that concerns me is that any officer may be able to say that just by simply carrying it, it appears that I am trying to intimidate or warrant alarm by the public. It's basically his word against mine and of course he's going to win in a court of law. That scares the hell out of me and I don't want to lose my right to carry!
    Should read the unpublished case of WA State V Casad, and some of the other court cases posted all around this site.

    The vast majority go on to explain that a firearm in a holster does not warrant a threat to the safety of the public or an officer. It also does not constitute RAS for a LEO to initiate an investigatory detention.

  17. #17
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    What does RAS stand for? I'm thinking it means something like reasonable search, but I could be wrong and I'd like the correct terminology.

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    Daath 474 wrote:
    What does RAS stand for? I'm thinking it means something like reasonable search, but I could be wrong and I'd like the correct terminology.
    Reasonable Articulate Suspicion : Legal standard that a person has been, is, or is about to be engaged in criminal activity based on specific and articulable facts and inferences.

  19. #19
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    Thank you.

  20. #20
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    I just want to know these things in case I ever do decide to open carry. I would like to know my specific laws regarding it and what things I should cite in a court of law if I find myself in one. I want to know what kind of legal action I can use to defend myself if I'm falsely arrested for doing something that is perfectly within my rights. You guys are great with providing solid facts and information. Keep up the good work!

  21. #21
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    Make sure to print out a couple of the pamphlets and carry those around with you. They are some great legal jargin reads

  22. #22
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    One of my main concerns with OC is my local police force. I live in a small town (Wenatchee) where they don't seem to have anything better to do than harass folks. Since I live in a small town and I only travel by train, I no longer own a car (cuts down on gas, insurance, etc. costs) and I walk everywhere that I go. A lot of times I walk late at night, which is one of the big reasons as to why I carry. I've had numerous night jobs or just times when I want to go for a walk. It has seemed like every time I have ever been out, a cop has pulled over to question me for just walking. I always respond with my name, provide ID and tell them that I am just walking. Usually this will get them to leave me alone, sometimes not. I've also had quite a few encounters with nasty officers who had nothing better to do than harass me. They'll ask anything from "where are you going/where did you come from?" to "can I search you?" "are you on or buying drugs?" etc. It's really quite ridiculous. I have a completely clean record and I have never done anything to warrant such attention. I've even had an encounter with a sheriff that insisted I show him my backpack after I declined, citing my rights under the fourth amendment. I pretty much had to ask if I was being detained or not and if I was free to go. I was free to go because I did nothing wrong, but that sheriff and about four other police officers followed me for over five or six blocks that night! This all being without open carrying. So my concern is really in this: I think that a lot of the time I am being targeted and picked on because of my age and appearance. I'm in my mid twenties, short hair with tattoos and piercings. I don't wear anything ridiculous or obscene, just a simple black t-shirt and jeans most of the time. I do think that the tattoos and piercings are what causes some of the harassment. So I'm concerned that with my appearance and the negative reactions I get from law enforcement just based on that... I might have a little more to fear when open carrying my pistol. I know they can claim that a person was wearing it in an "intimidating" fashion or gave off an appearance of danger or something to that degree. I'm a generally nice and easygoing guy, but as I said, just because of my interests in tattoos and piercings I get the negative stereotype.
    Guy, I know exactly what you mean.
    My advice is learn some search and seizure law (I suggest FlexYourRights and the ACLU for starters,) learn how to non-confrontationally confront LEOs about your rights, and then learn how to write legalistic sounding complaint letters. Once you get a couple of those shot off the cops may back off a little. Wenatchee is small enough that if you do it once or twice it'll get around to the other ones soon enough. And document every stop, as detailed as possible, and be sure to include exactly why he claimed he stopped you.
    I live in Sunnyside (birthplace of the LVL 13!) shaved head and tats, walk everywhere, and usually have at least one gun on me, so I go through the same sh:t. Last incident ended with the police chief calling me to apologize for the way it went down, so I think some progress has been made.
    Just remember: "Am I being detained?" "What is your reasonable and articulable suspicion?" "Please articulate..." and document!



  23. #23
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    Guy, I know exactly what you mean.
    My advice is learn some search and seizure law (I suggest FlexYourRights and the ACLU for starters,) learn how to non-confrontationally confront LEOs about your rights, and then learn how to write legalistic sounding complaint letters. Once you get a couple of those shot off the cops may back off a little. Wenatchee is small enough that if you do it once or twice it'll get around to the other ones soon enough. And document every stop, as detailed as possible, and be sure to include exactly why he claimed he stopped you.
    I live in Sunnyside (birthplace of the LVL 13!) shaved head and tats, walk everywhere, and usually have at least one gun on me, so I go through the same sh:t. Last incident ended with the police chief calling me to apologize for the way it went down, so I think some progress has been made.
    Just remember: "Am I being detained?" "What is your reasonable and articulable suspicion?" "Please articulate..." and document!

    I know. I have had incidents where I was minding my own business and I have been confronted and harassed for it. I declined allowing my bag to be searched citing my rights to the fourth amendment. The officer made some insulting remarks about me being paranoid or having drugs, which was totally uncalled for. I asked him if I was being detained and excused myself from the conversation. That night four or five cops pretty much patrolled up and down the roads for about nine blocks as I walked home.

    I wasn't open carrying, nor was I doing anything unreasonable or "suspicious." I just got off work at 3am from a long day and night and I was walking home from the van site... on the sidewalk, fully clothed, sober, not waving a weapon in the air or screaming at the top of my lungs. LOL. I was just being normal. Sometimes it's really depressing that these guys have nothing better to do than pick on someone.

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    I hear ya. Use their dickheadness to your advantage. File some complaints. Casually mention something indicating you have a right to sue.

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    I was going to file a complaint with the police department, but I decided not to when I thought about it. That would just single me out to the rest of them and I'd be targeted more and harassed more. It's a small town and I'd be an easy face to remember. I like real cops that do their job and protect people, not cops that act like the world's biggest gang of crooks.

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