• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Burger King

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Tawnos wrote:
Assuming you're as dense as your online persona, I'll type slowly so you can absorb it.

We have the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure. This right has been defined to mean search without consent when there is no probable cause a crime has occurred. RFID allows search and seizure of a person's information without their consent, and without any suspicion of wrongdoing. Moreover, mandatory RFID provides a means by which to search for those concealed carrying, effectively allowing search of all parties within the room sans consent.

There are other implications as well - RFID skimming to "clone" guns could become a way for criminals to avoid traces, or to frame innocent victims.

How, in any way (apart from the aforementioned density), can you not see that allowing instant search of identification associated with a person is an inherent violation of the right against unreasonable search and seizure? Next you know we will all need implanted RFID to make sure that sex offenders aren't too close to schools, or drunk drivers aren't allowed to purchase alcohol, or any of a thousand other offenses.

In short: HFID is as stupid an idea as you are dense an individual. Your concern trolling and repeated advocacy for "HankT's so and so" ideas stands contrary to reason, rights, and even the law.


I don't think you read the details either, Tawnos.

Here, they are at this link:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=29182&forum_id=12&highlight=rfid
 

TechnoWeenie

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2007
Messages
2,084
Location
, ,
imported post

If their defense is 'officer safety', they're gonna have a damn hard time justifying it if they just put it back in the holster after running the serial #.


Maybe they want a receipt for the holster it's in too, or the clothes I'm wearing, ya know, make sure it's not stolen, and hey, run my IPOD while you're at it, I'd hate to be in possession of a stolen Ipod!
 

James06

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
62
Location
Seattle wa usa
imported post

Well just got back from kent pd and filed my complaint I informed the officer that i would be recording the conversation which he agreed to i also asked for a copy of the poilce report.

He alsotold me that the sargeant who supervises the officers whom I had my encounter with was not available so he would perform the initial part of my complaint.

P.s sorry for my lack of paragraphs i was so mad I didnt evern notice I was doing that. Also thanks for the support you all have shown me.:)
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

HankT wrote:
Tawnos wrote:
Assuming you're as dense as your online persona, I'll type slowly so you can absorb it.

We have the right to be safe from unreasonable search and seizure. This right has been defined to mean search without consent when there is no probable cause a crime has occurred. RFID allows search and seizure of a person's information without their consent, and without any suspicion of wrongdoing. Moreover, mandatory RFID provides a means by which to search for those concealed carrying, effectively allowing search of all parties within the room sans consent.

There are other implications as well - RFID skimming to "clone" guns could become a way for criminals to avoid traces, or to frame innocent victims.

How, in any way (apart from the aforementioned density), can you not see that allowing instant search of identification associated with a person is an inherent violation of the right against unreasonable search and seizure? Next you know we will all need implanted RFID to make sure that sex offenders aren't too close to schools, or drunk drivers aren't allowed to purchase alcohol, or any of a thousand other offenses.

In short: HFID is as stupid an idea as you are dense an individual. Your concern trolling and repeated advocacy for "HankT's so and so" ideas stands contrary to reason, rights, and even the law.


I don't think you read the details either, Tawnos.

Here, they are at this link:

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/view_topic.php?id=29182&forum_id=12&highlight=rfid
Thanks for bolding the important sentences. You saved me the hassle. If you don't care to respond to any points beyond saying "you didn't read the details," I will assume you're conceding them and have nothing constructive to contribute. Until such time that you choose to respond to all points with how you avoid the problems, technical and legal, I wish you a good day, sir.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Tawnos wrote:
Until such time that you choose to respond to all points with how you avoid the problems, technical and legal, I wish you a good day, sir.
I can't discuss the points when you won't read the details.

I'll give you a hint: HFID doesn not contain any "personal information."



Tawnos wrote:
[suP][suB]...[/suB][/suP]I will assume you're conceding them and have nothing constructive to contribute. Until such time that you choose to respond to all points with how you avoid the problems, technical and legal, I wish you a good day, sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoqUwyHseg4
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

HankT wrote:
Tawnos wrote:
Until such time that you choose to respond to all points with how you avoid the problems, technical and legal, I wish you a good day, sir.
I can't discuss the points when you won't read the details.

I'll give you a hint: HFID doesn not contain any "personal information."



Tawnos wrote:
[sup][sub]...[/sub][/sup]I will assume you're conceding them and have nothing constructive to contribute. Until such time that you choose to respond to all points with how you avoid the problems, technical and legal, I wish you a good day, sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoqUwyHseg4
Personal information - any information that is not readily visible and I don't voluntarily consent to giving you. If concealed carrying (let's say, a BUG while open carrying), the fact I'm doing so is personal. Similarly, the serial number of my gun (and its associated registration information) is equally private information. Unless an officer has a reasonable articulable suspicion that the gun is stolen, they do not need to be checking. You also conveniently ignore the other problems I and others like me have cited regarding non-LEO use of that information.

And I don't need to make an ass out of you - you're doing a damn fine job of it yourself.
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

NavyLT wrote:
Thanks Tawnos!

I'll give you a hint: HFID doesn not contain any "personal information."
It would contain the serial number of a gun that belongs to me, which is my personal property, therefore, the serial number of the gun that belongs to me is my personal information, which without warrant or reasonable suspicion, the police have no business nor right to obtain.

You own the serial number?

Cite, please.
 

FunkTrooper

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
584
Location
Eagle River, Alaska, USA
imported post

Man when I asked a cop if I was being detained they didn't answer me but admitted no crime had taken place. Think of how great this would have turned out if you had been recording them the entire time or at least told them you were recording.
 

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
imported post

FunkTrooper wrote:
SNIP Think of how great this would have turned out if you had been recording them the entire time or at least told them you were recording.


I would recommend againsttelling an LEO you are recording the interaction (unless required by law). If the LEO has been misbehaving, it can push his back to the wall where he may have to find or invent a reason todetain or arrest you so he can get his hands on the recorder and make the recording disappear.

For a similar reason, I would recommend against threatening a complaint during the encounter itself.If you threaten a complaint, he may decide he has to find or invent a reason cite you or arrest you in order to "justify" his actions. Just give the misbehaving LEO enough rope to give you complaint ammunition (without waiving your rights). The cop has the advantage during an encounter. Leave it to him, while using your own advantages (rights,rope, recording device if legal). Once you are out of his clutches and can no longer be falsely cited, arrested, proned out, then hammer hard with a written complaint or lawsuit. Pick when to fight. Seem to lose the first engagement in order to win where it will count more, the second engagement.

You can learn more about dealing with police in two books:

You and the Police by Kenneth Royce aka Boston T. Partythru http://www.gunlaws.com

Arrest-Proof Yourself by Dale _________, through Barnes & Noble.

Here are twovideos with valuable information:

Busted: The Citizen's Guide to Survivinga Police Encounter by FlexYourRights.org:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqMjMPlXzdA



Talking to Police by Professor James Duane of Regent University law school:

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/



On a quick read-through, it looks to me like the the OPer's gesture of raising his jacket could be interpreted as giving consent to removethe gunfor inspection. I'm not saying he did consent. I am saying he opened the door to that interpretation.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

HankT wrote:
NavyLT wrote:
Thanks Tawnos!

I'll give you a hint: HFID doesn not contain any "personal information."
It would contain the serial number of a gun that belongs to me, which is my personal property, therefore, the serial number of the gun that belongs to me is my personal information, which without warrant or reasonable suspicion, the police have no business nor right to obtain.

You own the serial number?

Cite, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Hicks

It was pointed out to you before, you ignored it then, as you'll likely do again. Serial number on a stereo is considered private information. The officer moved the stereo to see the serial number. It was considered an unconstitutional "search".
 

HankT

State Researcher
Joined
Feb 20, 2007
Messages
6,215
Location
Invisible Mode
imported post

Tawnos wrote:
HankT wrote:
NavyLT wrote:
Thanks Tawnos!

I'll give you a hint: HFID doesn not contain any "personal information."
It would contain the serial number of a gun that belongs to me, which is my personal property, therefore, the serial number of the gun that belongs to me is my personal information, which without warrant or reasonable suspicion, the police have no business nor right to obtain.

You own the serial number?

Cite, please.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._Hicks

It was pointed out to you before, you ignored it then, as you'll likely do again. Serial number on a stereo is considered private information. The officer moved the stereo to see the serial number. It was considered an unconstitutional "search".

HFID, as proposed and as explained previously, would not require a physical search. It is based on a system that would propagate the information automatically, making it available to a reader/receiver. No search--No 4th amendment violation.

It would work, if set up properly.

You and LTN do not "own" the serial number of a gun. Same as you do not own the VIN on the dashboard of your car. If someone wants to look at your VIN, they can pretty much do so at will. Same with your license plate.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

HankT wrote
HFID, as proposed and as explained previously, would not require a physical search. It is based on a system that would propagate the information automatically, making it available to a reader/receiver. No search--No 4th amendment violation.

It would work, if set up properly.

You and LTN do not "own" the serial number of a gun. Same as you do not own the VIN on the dashboard of your car. If someone wants to look at your VIN, they can pretty much do so at will. Same with your license plate.
Were you dropped on your head as a child, or did you just eat too much wall candy?

Reading Az v Hicks you see the following:

a truly cursory inspection - one that involves merely looking at what is already exposed to view, without disturbing it - is not a "search" for Fourth Amendment purposes,

In order to "look" at RFID, one must energize it, thus disturbing the tag. Moreover, this quote:
It matters not that the search uncovered nothing of any great personal value to respondent - serial numbers rather than (what might conceivably have been hidden behind or under the equipment) letters or photographs. A search is a search, even if it happens to disclose nothing but the bottom of a turntable.
shows that the court doesn't view something which requires activity to be seen by law enforcement to be in "plain view". It also shows that the court sees a serial number is considered personal if it is not plainly visible.

Going further, there are implications for your proposed system that extend beyond the search of someone in public. Do officers have the right to construct and use a high-powered antenna to scan all RFID tags within a domecile? See also Kyllo v. United States:
Held:Where, as here, the Government uses a device that is not in general public use, to explore details of a private home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the surveillance is a Fourth Amendment “search,” and is presumptively unreasonable without a warrant.
In the same way an infrared scanner allows officers to view details about the inside of a private home, an RFID scanner provides the means to view the serial number of a firearm that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion.

It is thus I continue to question your intelligence, and urge you to vacate any claim to the legality of your proposed plan. Beyond that, even if it were legal, you have failed to uphold the sanity of such a device, when it provides means for criminals to find guns, as well as a means by which to frame another using remotely collected information.
 

kwiebe

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2009
Messages
206
Location
Tacoma, Washington, United States
imported post

This thread has me wondering about the whole "officer safety" thing. Not to threadjack, but can someone explain when it *is* OK for an officer to take your gun? I mean in this context.

In other words, lead me down a hypothetical - or even this case/the New Mexico case cited here - how could the OC'er/CC'er have handled it differently and what kinds of "triggers" are there that call for either:

1. "I'm going to at least attempt to respectfully decline the officer's request to take my weapon"

vs.

2. "The officer has passed all the "tests" necessary and I must comply"

I'm having trouble following the flowchart.
 

Tawnos

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
2,542
Location
Washington
imported post

kwiebe wrote:
This thread has me wondering about the whole "officer safety" thing. Not to threadjack, but can someone explain when it *is* OK for an officer to take your gun? I mean in this context.

In other words, lead me down a hypothetical - or even this case/the New Mexico case cited here - how could the OC'er/CC'er have handled it differently and what kinds of "triggers" are there that call for either:

1. "I'm going to at least attempt to respectfully decline the officer's request to take my weapon"

vs.

2. "The officer has passed all the "tests" necessary and I must comply"

I'm having trouble following the flowchart.
1. "As my gun is loaded, it would be safest to leave it holstered. I do not consent to the seizure of my property, but I will not resist if you insist on violating my rights. My nonresistance should not be construed as my approval for this seizure."

2. "I do not consent to the seizure of my property, but I will not resist if you insist on violating my rights. My nonresistance should not be construed as my approval for this seizure."

That's pretty much the only options - there's no way to win on the street, but making it clear that you are not approving of the seizure, simply complying because you feel under duress, helps you in court.
 

sudden valley gunner

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2008
Messages
16,674
Location
Whatcom County
imported post

Wow !!!!! Look it doesn't matter if you own it or not, I would say you do, like you own the serial number on your refridgerator, Stereo, T.V.

It is that the authorities should not be able to label and attach certain guns and serial numbers to people its none of their business unless you have committed a crime.

Your car example is not a good example since all the states I know of consider driving a privilege, yet bearing arms is a right.
 

trevorthebusdriver

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2008
Messages
591
Location
Kent, Washington, USA
imported post

As much as I hate Burger King, it looks like I will have to stop there for lunch, it is right down the hill from me. :D
Maybe a group lunch for us Kentians, what do you say?
 

Trigger Dr

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Messages
2,760
Location
Wa, ,
imported post

I am denying you permission to seize my personal property.

You are seizing my personal property against my will.

You areseizingmy personal property without reasonable suspicion ofcriminal activity and against my stringent verbal objection.
 

James06

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
62
Location
Seattle wa usa
imported post

trevorthebusdriver wrote:
As much as I hate Burger King, it looks like I will have to stop there for lunch, it is right down the hill from me. :D
Maybe a group lunch for us Kentians, what do you say?
I like that idea. im off on wendsday we could have lunch
 
Top