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Thread: Teen Held at Gunpoint Until Police Arrive

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    What would you have done?

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    Campaign Veteran Bookman's Avatar
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    Kudos to everyone involved... except the stupid teen.

    The man reacted (IMHO) appropriately. And while I know I'll probably get some flak for this, I think the cops did too. After all, they came upon the scene of a man holding a teen at gunpoint, so they ordered him to the ground. HOWEVER, they soon found out what was going on, let him back up and arrested the teen.

    Good job all around.


    Edit: Spelling
    "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke


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    Win all around. The guy stopped his car from being stolen, all perps were caught, and the cops acted appropriately.
    "If we were to ever consider citizenship as the least bit matter of merit instead of birthright, imagine who should be selected as deserved representation of our democracy: someone who would risk their daily livelihood to cast an individually statistically insignificant vote, or those who wrap themselves in the flag against slightest slights." - agenthex

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    I disagree with the police ordering the victim to the ground, but then again, we don't really know everything that transpired during this encounter, do we?

    For example if it were me, I would make sure the 911 dispatcher knew what I looked like and what I was wearing. Then when the police arrived, I would clearly announce who I was while S-L-O-W-L-Y putting my gun down and/or re-holstering it with my hands in clear sight. Let them take it from there. I would hope that I would not be held at gunpoint and made to go to the ground since it I would be the real victim.

    But, you just don't know how things could play out in such a situation.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Pretty ballsy citizen's arrest, but that is what it sounded (read) like to me.

    I really cannot find any fault with how the cops took control of the scene once they arrived.

    Personally I think I would have called 911 and followed the vehicle while maintaining comms with the dispatcher, waiting for the cops to pull up behind and then let them make the stop. But that's just me sitting behind my keyboard with perfect 20/20 hindsight and a comfortable armchair.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
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    APwrote:
    A Billings man driving home from work around 5 p.m. Monday spotted his car that had been stolen from him that morning. He chased the car until it stopped on the 2600 block of Fourth Avenue South and managed to hold one of the passengers at gunpoint until police arrived.

    "He was actually going home from work at the time of the call," Billings Police Sgt. Scott Conrad said. "It was a red Suburban. He chases it down and there's four occupants in the vehicle. Three run. He catches one of the passengers, with one hand at gunpoint and one hand on the phone calling police dispatch."

    Billings police arrived minutes later and ordered the man to the ground. They took the teen into custody and released the man once they realized what had happened. Conrad said the boy helped police identify those who had allegedly stolen the car, and the boy was later released.

    "He actually helped in the case," Conrad said. "We do know who we're looking for."
    Good work on his part to get his car vehicle back.

    I don't see, in the spare details of the story, the need for pulling out the ole pistola.

    Hard to say, but there is chance he was out of control, like the Charles Webb guy. Not that red Suburban guy started shooting or anything. So, Suburban man wasn't a goof with a gun. That's good. I suspect that putting himdown on the ground is pretty standard stuff. Might not have happened if he kept his gun in the holster concealed (ifhe wasCC) orvisible (if he was OC). Chances arehe was CC, anyway.



    Charles Webb story.

    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum65/31547.html




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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    skidmark wrote:
    Pretty ballsy citizen's arrest, but that is what it sounded (read) like to me.

    I really cannot find any fault with how the cops took control of the scene once they arrived.

    Personally I think I would have called 911 and followed the vehicle while maintaining comms with the dispatcher, waiting for the cops to pull up behind and then let them make the stop. But that's just me sitting behind my keyboard with perfect 20/20 hindsight and a comfortable armchair.

    stay safe.

    skidmark
    I agree with this take. If you are not in immediate danger, no sense in putting yourself in harm's way if you don't have do it.

    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Webb was out of control with his reaction to a purse snatching if the report is correct, once the purse snatcher fled the scene, self-defense or defense of other had ended.

    But i feelthis guy in Billings did nothing that couldbe considered out of line for the circumstances
    Do you think the "Teen" would have stayed there without a fight if this guy did not unholster his pistol to hold him?
    The kidwas in a stolen vehicle, hanging around with a car thief (or multiple thieves) The guy who caught him had no idea if the teen was armed or not. I would have also held him at gunpoint until the police got there.



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    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.


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    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Absolutely!

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    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?

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    HankT wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?
    Because some of us still believe in "innocent until proven guilty".

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    rpyne wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?
    Because some of us still believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
    What would you have done if you were the cop arriving on the scene?

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    I'm the guy that held the teen there. 911 didn't work, as is sometimes the case in Billings, MT. I kept trying to call police, and managed to get a bystander to call while trying to getmy phone to work (calling 911 locks up the cell phone, so calls cannot go in or out). There was no "chase." The group was pulled over to pick up someone and were about to leave. Fearing the group might get away and hurt s.o., i.e. rob someone for money, crash the vehicle into an innocent family, break into s.o.'s house, etc.,I felt a moral obligation to stop possible further crime and danger from happening to anyone else (especially, using my suburban).Imagine following them to store only to watch them shoot a clerk, when I could havedone something (I've followed a DUI for an 45 minutes before police finally came. My wife was a victim of a hit and run and they didn't respond at all, until the next day). Iwouldn't shoot someone overa car. Thegun was out only to protect myself (I did not know they were teens, armed fugitives, drug dealers, etc.). A legally armed citizen does not act with the same moral code as your gun wielding criminal. Carrying a gun also doesn't make one a criminal. You never know when you'll need a gun, until you need one badly ("If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -His Holiness, the XIV Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times). Hopefully, what was done prevented s.o. from getting hurt or killed by these teens, as they made their way across the U.S.(or the teens from getting themselves hurt or killed). They were on their way to New York, I found out later. I hope the teens will eventually turn into adults striving make their community a better place to live, work, play and raise a family. Sincerely, a husband, father of three, your friend & neighbor.



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    Hey everybody, I'm new around here.

    I think you did a great job MolonLabe. Stopping those teens was a good thing for everybody. Hopefully a few years in the state pen, or juvenile hallwill teach them the price for crime. I am not sure if I would have chosen to do as you did by taking them down. I would worry they may be armed themselves. Then again, I have always been less confrontational.

    Kudos!



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    MolonLabe wrote:
    I'm the guy that held the teen there. 911 didn't work, as is sometimes the case in Billings, MT. I kept trying to call police, and managed to get a bystander to call while trying to getmy phone to work (calling 911 locks up the cell phone, so calls cannot go in or out). There was no "chase." The group was pulled over to pick up someone and were about to leave. Fearing the group might get away and hurt s.o., i.e. rob someone for money, crash the vehicle into an innocent family, break into s.o.'s house, etc.,I felt a moral obligation to stop possible further crime and danger from happening to anyone else (especially, using my suburban).Imagine following them to store only to watch them shoot a clerk, when I could havedone something (I've followed a DUI for an 45 minutes before police finally came. My wife was a victim of a hit and run and they didn't respond at all, until the next day). Iwouldn't shoot someone overa car. Thegun was out only to protect myself (I did not know they were teens, armed fugitives, drug dealers, etc.). A legally armed citizen does not act with the same moral code as your gun wielding criminal. Carrying a gun also doesn't make one a criminal. You never know when you'll need a gun, until you need one badly ("If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." -His Holiness, the XIV Dalai Lama (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times). Hopefully, what was done prevented s.o. from getting hurt or killed by these teens, as they made their way across the U.S.(or the teens from getting themselves hurt or killed). They were on their way to New York, I found out later. I hope the teens will eventually turn into adults striving make their community a better place to live, work, play and raise a family. Sincerely, a husband, father of three, your friend & neighbor.
    Were you OCing to start with, ML?

    When did you pull out the gun? How did you present it to the teens?

    What did you say to them? How close were you to them?

    How old was the teen you detained? How old did the others look?

    Were any of the teens armed?

    How did the arriving cops deal with you when they arrived? Did they disarm you?

    Glad you got your car back, ML.

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    Were you OCing to start with, ML? Yes. I also hadn't eaten lunch, which always seems to not help with decision making (little impetuous).

    When did you pull out the gun?Taking the 5th here.How did you present it to the teens? Not politely. I've prior military experience. My wife would say I was using my Drill Sargent voice, which if you are incessant and loud sometimes works to keep them confused and compliant.

    What did you say to them? I told them police were on way, they needed to get out and lay on the ground (I used more words than that to keep them from thinking). A guy in a pick up offered to help. I told him, they had stolen my surburban and to call the police (my phone was still frozen-- right until the last 30 seconds before police arrived).

    How close were you to them? Initially, a few feet. I figured I only needed one, so I didn't care when everyone started to run. I was sure hoping the one I caught wouldn't run. I certainly wasn't going to fire my weapon unless they had guns and were about to fire on me. I told teen to give me the name of the driver that ran. He gave it up, luckily, and hetold police right away when they handcuffed him.

    How old was the teen you detained? Somewhere between 16-18 maybe.

    How old did the others look? Driver had glasses and a hat... maybe 17-20.

    Were any of the teens armed? I don't know. I was really concerned when they started running; that they were getting cover. It's a bad neighborhood... 60 yards from a parole office... half a dozen thugs were watching it go down. I didn't know if they were armed either. They came out of houses on the street. Had no idea if they were foe... assumed everyone was foe. Took cover between the suburban and mini-van I was driving. Wondering all the while how much longer it would be until the police showed.

    How did the arriving cops deal with you when they arrived? They all drew weapons on me. I kept my weapon on the teen, thinking if he had a gun, I really didn't want him to start shooting at me or the police. I put my weapon down as they ordered me to and I was sure they had the teen under control. They asked me to lay on the ground. I pushed my pistol away from me-- evidently, not far enough. An officer kicked it a few feet further away. I was handcuffed. They checked my ID, as I explained both vehicles belonged to me and that I had tried to call police before attempting to take on whoever was in my vehicle. They undid the cuffs right away. Local news KULR8 was setting up their camera. I got my gun back the next day thanks to Randy Pinocci and the MT Sports Shooters Association. He gave me some advice on who to call.

    I think the Billings Police Department did an awesome job. It's not often, if ever, they encounter this scenerio. I believe they are true professionals and proud they serve our community. They do the best they can with the resources they have. Truly, looking back, I wish my phone had worked. I really think I put myself in a terrible amount of risk, in a bad neighborhood. But, faced with the thought of following these people and watching them rob or hurt someone while I'm attempting to fix my phone and wait for them to arrive on the scene, is not something I did.Perhaps, if I had to do it over,I'd like to say I'd follow and wait until the last possible moment and step in only if I absolutely had to (like if police weren't responding and people in my suburban were in the process of committing a robbery and someone was possibly going to get hurt by them). But, think about it: why would you step in at the last possible moment? Then they would have the upper hand for sure, their senses sharpened with adrenaline and their judgment completely impaired. No, I really believed I had the element of surprise on my side. They would never expect the owner, or private citizen, would be crazy enough to confront them. That alone confused them, maybe. The driver ran as fast as he could, as did a couple others. The passenger said he didn't have anything to do with it, complied and did what I asked until the police got there.

    I wish the teens a better future. I feel for them, wish there was something we could do as a community to make teens feel like they're part of a family here. Wish we took more pride in taking care of one another, looking out for each other. Many folks are trying. I guess just keep trying.

    Did they disarm you?

    Glad you got your car back, ML..... I'm glad it worked out the way it did. It could have obviously gone way different. I was fortunate. Thank God, we all gota second chance.




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    rpyne wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?
    Because some of us still believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
    You can be innocent until proven guilty all you want, but if you're brandishing a firearm and a cop pulls up, they're never going to be all Nancy Nice Guy to you, unless they recognize you as a fellow LEO. You're going to be disarmed and on your face until the particulars of the situation have been deciphered.

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    Wangmuf wrote:
    rpyne wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?
    Because some of us still believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
    You can be innocent until proven guilty all you want, but if you're brandishing a firearm and a cop pulls up, they're never going to be all Nancy Nice Guy to you, unless they recognize you as a fellow LEO. You're going to be disarmed and on your face until the particulars of the situation have been deciphered.
    Unless you are pointing your firearm at the cops or making other threats, they have no cause to believe that you are a bad guy. It is exactly this kind of thinking and reaction that is the reason that the cops shoot more innocent people than do citizens taking responsibility for their own safety and security.

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    rpyne wrote:
    Wangmuf wrote:
    rpyne wrote:
    HankT wrote:
    CoonDog wrote:
    I would have liked to read that the officers asked the man to holster his weapon and then proceed to sort it out.
    Why?
    Because some of us still believe in "innocent until proven guilty".
    You can be innocent until proven guilty all you want, but if you're brandishing a firearm and a cop pulls up, they're never going to be all Nancy Nice Guy to you, unless they recognize you as a fellow LEO. You're going to be disarmed and on your face until the particulars of the situation have been deciphered.
    Unless you are pointing your firearm at the cops or making other threats, they have no cause to believe that you are a bad guy. It is exactly this kind of thinking and reaction that is the reason that the cops shoot more innocent people than do citizens taking responsibility for their own safety and security.
    I think it's unreasonable to believe that a LEO shouldn't be the only person with a drawn weapon, presumably with a round chambered, once they show up on the scene. I also think it's unreasonable to believe that you're not a perceived threat when they do roll up, just because your gun is pointed at an unarmed individual, instead of them. They don't always have all the information when they arrive on the scene, despite what may have been told to the 911 operator.

    I don't remember what thread it was in, but I saw it on these boards earlier... The police spend their entire day looking at 1+1=crime. MWAG + unarmed individual in fear of his life = crime, until the facts come into play.

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