We are sitting ducks

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It seems to me that this is a stratergies of a lot of Police Dept's. When there is a OC picnic everything goes fine, no one is harassed or stopped, Because we are in numbers, So every one thinks everything is fine, The PDhave no problem with it.

So everyone goes home and goes about their business thinking everything went great, with the mind set that I can OC in this city without being stopped and detained.

Now you're by some reason back in the so called OC Friendly city where the picnic was rather you live there or just visitingand decide I will OCbecause everything went good at the picnic, There were no problems, and then all of a sudden

BAM

You are stopped, harassed, detained, guns drawn on you for what, doing what you did at the picnic or what you read in the forums about everything going so well in regard to OC.

It's like a game the PDis playing. Picking people off one by one,POatrol Officers, Where do u think their orders come from. DUU! The top their Boss the Chief. They don't care about our rights, They only look out for each other, and do what ever they have to to protect themselves.

So were between a rock and hardspot, Lawyers won't take your case On constigent, IT cost to get FOIA,SO now your're screwed unless you have money to pay an attorney to file suit, Then you won't have any problem finding an attorney, They will be standing in line.

I was atWyandotte picnic, Police were there, Everything went well,But wait untill there is one lone OC'er and we shall see the pattern. If not it will shock me.

Untill the Attorney Generalgets involved and sets all these departments straight, This will continue.

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Are you suggesting Bossbart that the Attorney General has the ability and willingness to make directcomminucation with the head of every law enforcement ageny in the state if we convince him it needsto be done?

(This is not a critical statement, it is a true question!)

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It's quite possible that if you have your voice recorder with you, and you familiarize yourself with the laws you can win your case without an attourney pretty easily. Someone here has done it before but I don't recall who.

Sure the FIOA will cost a little bit, but if you file civil suit you can win it back and then some for your applicable charges.

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What has to be done to stop all this, All departments are aware.

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ethernetweb wrote:

Sure the FIOA will cost a little bit, but if you file civil suit you can win it back and then some for your applicable charges.

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How much does a FOIA request cost?

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I don't see any lawyers knocking on the door of thefellow in the warren incident. looks cut and dried to me.

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HankT wrote:

How much does a FOIA request cost?

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There is some information about FOIA requests that were made here
http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/31616-1.html

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JeffSayers wrote:

Are you suggesting Bossbart that the Attorney General has the ability and willingness to make direct communication with the head of every law enforcement agency in the state if we convince him it needs to be done?

(This is not a critical statement, it is a true question!)

Click to expand...

Mike Cox is Chief Law enforcement officer in the Great state of Michigan !

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bossbart wrote:

I don't see any lawyers knocking on the door of thefellow in the warren incident. looks cut and dried to me.

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Pursuing the case is up to hamaneggs, who appears to be deciding what to do. I believe that he is already in touch with an attorney and will respect whatever decision he makes, whether I agree or not. I am not sure that I would want an attorney "knocking on my virtual door" as a "cold-call". I would rather trust my fellow OC'ers who can provide an attorney contact.

I understand your concern about the possibility of a negative OC-LEO Interaction. There do seem to be a few cities here in MI that wish to impede our right/ability to OC. I believe that things are in the works to continue to have OC Events in these cities as well as possible court cases. These events help communicate that OC is legal and that we are not threats that we may be perceived to be. I believe our primary goal is win over the hearts/minds of LEO's that we are actually respectable citizens being responsible for our own safety, which should make their jobs/roles easier in some respects. This "work" occurs "little by slowly", which should mean that it will have a lasting effect.

Each of us has gone through apprehension about OC'ing, which is why events are scheduled to help us "over the hump". We can always contact another in our area for an OC Meet-Up. There are times that I CC instead of OC when I am not comfortable with OC (I have a CPL). I am still in process of becoming entirely OK with OC...

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ethernetweb wrote:

It's quite possible that if you have your voice recorder with you, and you familiarize yourself with the laws you can win your case without an attourney pretty easily. Someone here has done it before but I don't recall who.

Sure the FIOA will cost a little bit, but if you file civil suit you can win it back and then some for your applicable charges.

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That would have been FatBoyCykes. He did a very good job of putting a case together, and then they dropped the charges when he walked in, never even had to say a word about it.

In regards to FOIA's, aren't you supposed to be able to cross examine evidence against you if you get charged? Wouldn't that imply not having to pay for it in the case of defending yourself in court? I'm asking because I don't know. :uhoh:

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win over the hearts/minds of LEO's

You don't have to win over the hearts/minds of LEO's to wear a different color shirt everyday, You shouldn't have to win over anything that is legal

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knocking on my virtual door" as a "cold-call

Read between the lines, that is a figure of speach

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bossbart wrote:

win over the hearts/minds of LEO's

You don't have to win over the hearts/minds of LEO's to wear a different color shirt everyday, You shouldn't have to win over anything that is legal

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Of course. But, LEOs aren't stopping folks for wearing different color shirts.



LEO shouldn't stop OCers, but they are. To change the actual, people likely will have to win over the hearts/minds of LEOs.

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wrightme wrote:

bossbart wrote:

win over the hearts/minds of LEO's

You don't have to win over the hearts/minds of LEO's to wear a different color shirt everyday, You shouldn't have to win over anything that is legal

Click to expand...

Of course. But, LEOs aren't stopping folks for wearing different color shirts.



LEO shouldn't stop OCers, but they are. To change the actual, people likely will have to win over the hearts/minds of LEOs.

Click to expand...

I think it's more a question of makingOC more normal. Not more normal to OCers, rather to the public and LEOs.

OC is an innovation into the system. So, people have to consider how to react to it.

The spread of OC is called a diffusion problem: it takes time and exposure and information to diffuse the practice. Virginia is the exemplar.

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it has beenwriten:

...win over the hearts/minds of LEOs.

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I believe the majority of their hears will never be won; however their minds are fair game.

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HankT wrote:

wrightme wrote:

bossbart wrote:

win over the hearts/minds of LEO's

You don't have to win over the hearts/minds of LEO's to wear a different color shirt everyday, You shouldn't have to win over anything that is legal

Click to expand...

Of course. But, LEOs aren't stopping folks for wearing different color shirts.
LEO shouldn't stop OCers, but they are. To change the actual, people likely will have to win over the hearts/minds of LEOs.

Click to expand...

I think it's more a question of makingOC more normal. Not more normal to OCers, rather to the public and LEOs.

OC is an innovation into the system. So, people have to consider how to react to it.

The spread of OC is called a diffusion problem: it takes time and exposure and information to diffuse the practice. Virginia is the exemplar.

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Correct. You said it more clearly (and accurately) than I did.

Current reactions seem to trend towards "MWAG calls," and heavy-handed LE tactics. With positive public exposure and education, this can change.

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PDinDetroit wrote:

...

These events help communicate that OC is legal and that we are not threats that we may be perceived to be. I believe our primary goal is win over the hearts/minds of LEO's that we are actually respectable citizens being responsible for our own safety, which should make their jobs/roles easier in some respects. This "work" occurs "little by slowly", which should mean that it will have a lasting effect.

Click to expand...

I'm not so sure I buy into that line of thought. They already know we aren't a physical threat, they just see us as a threat to their power. Many of them see the gun as a source of power (not all), and when the citizenry see's private citizens openly carrying that source of power, it threatens their personal/professional power structure.

Witness that they don't treat people who OC as a threat, they just treat them like they (the officers) want the OC'er to stop OC'ing. IOW, they just harass and intimidate them.

One person (who I won't name) recently had an officer draw his gun and point it at him, yet the police report indicates that the officer knew full well that OC is legal.

It isn't "officer safety", it's "social engineering".

Granted that this isn't always the case. There are many (if not more) agency's/officers who are coming to accept that it isn't all they initially made it out to be.

OTOH, there are always going to be those officers who don't really care about anything else than their image/self-image of power. They are the ones who will always have a problem with OC. In reality, that problem is not so much with OC, just their own mentality of needing to maintain power over others.

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Veritas was harrassed in Detroit. See here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453-1.html.

IMO, he handled it very well and didn't lawyer-up either.

Others' experience will obviously vary, but everyone who intends to OC in Michigan may want to review Veritas' case.

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RubberArm wrote:

Veritas was harrassed in Detroit. See here: http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum30/25453-1.html.

IMO, he handled it very well and didn't lawyer-up either.

Others' experience will obviously vary, but everyone who intends to OC in Michigan may want to review Veritas' case.

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If your referring to his OC experience he wasn't charged with anything so why lawyer up? Unless you are referring to his option to retain council for a civil action.

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From what I can see (especially here in Warren) the only way to have an impact is to draw as many MWG 911 calls as possible until they change the the response. I watched OpenCarryNH do something similar to the point the dispatcher stopped sending units to the MWG calls. Or when they did the cops just made sure everything was OK and left. From the looks of it the only way to get change is to step up efforts.

Mike