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Thread: Making Rounds In Merced-Long.

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    This afternoon I went about a part of Merced that I frequent, and started asking various establishments what their policies, corporate and private were with regards to firearms, UOC, CCW, and spoke with them about various PC numbers and laws regarding their legality.

    At Raley's in Merced, the manager available declined to state any official policy, and suggested I contact their corporate office. The gentleman there intimated to me that he would almost certainly call the police if a man or woman entered the store carrying an unloaded openly carried firearm.

    At the Papa Murphy's across the street, the young girl in managment there informed me that "No way would that be legal, unless you were a cop." and that she would detain me, call the police and have me arrested for felony possession. All the while having this conversation while preparing a Family Sized Hawaiian.

    At the haircut shop within the same strip mall I was informed that I would be very welcome there. The gentlemen there was exceptionally courteous and his staff although at first confused, were congenial after understanding the issue I presented. He claimed although he was unaware of corporate policy regarding it, he had no issues, and as the owner he informed his employees to groom, style and shave even those who carried firearms.

    At the Cigarette Store, the employee and manager (a private business) said they recognized the legality of UOC but refused to serve those in possession of firearms and would call the police in such an event.

    The Chevron gas station found no fault with the legality of UOC or CC with a CCWP, but that by the nature of the business, E.g operating a gas station, he would immediately call the police. He said Chevron obeyed all state and federal laws, but that he would fear for his employees life in such an event, as he had never witnessed a UOC before.

    The Mexican restraunt adjacent to the smoke shop was not really able to, in my opinion, fully understand the questions I was asking. The gentleman who owned the restraunt called his son over to act as translator (lets be honest, my spanish is pretty poor). In the end I think he got the gist of it, pistole, no la bala, no bueno. I believe he did not understand the PC I was attempting to explain, and unfortunetly continued to believe that only Police Officers could legally carry firearms. I would note that the food at this estabilishment is quite good, and that I believe multi-lingual UOCers should be encouraged, or we should develop a pamphlet in Spanish/Hmong.

    The Wells Fargo Bank declined to state any incidence of robbery or experience with UOC or CC, and that they would clarify their corporate policy and apply it to their branch.

    Further down G street:
    Rite-Aid: the employee at the counter intimated to me that she had no problem with UOC and that her father was an avid gun collector and her brother a former Highway Patrolman before he was tragically killed.
    The manager available told me flat out that it was illegal. I asked him to clarify and said that it was illegal for employees to UOC or CC. And that this policy likely extended to patrons. I asked him to clarify the policy number and he called HR, who said that they would get back to me. He then demanded to know if I was carrying a firearm and said he would call the police if any UOC or CCer should up. He also said he would only do this until it was clarified by corporate.

    The Christian Connection was very welcoming, they disagreed initially with UOC, and CC. I attempted to explain and was pleased by the openness of dialogue. A man named Rick, a part owner and soon to be EMT said he found no fault or illegality and said that we must all respect the law, and fight for what we believed in, although he disagreed with many UOC and CC points. The other part owner who came in later, remained uncomfortable with the idea, but recognized the legality and need for some people to UOC.

    The sporting goods store's manager was on the phone so I opted not to interrupt or waste their busy time.

    The Walgreens on G was terrible. Awful. I attempted to be courteous, and respectful, but that had no effect on the sheer pig-headedness of the manager available at Walgreens.
    He came up and we began discussing the penal codes and laws regarding UOC and CC. He said, whatever corporate said he would not permit it in his store. That citizens had no right to possess firearms outside their homes and that he would detain them, contact the police and protect his employees from any M(orW)WAG. I explained to him that I did not require him to validate my rights. He promptly cut me off and told me he didn't have to fill my perscriptions. I asked him if this was true to corporate policy, what it had to do with our conversation, and if that held true to medicare and medicaid perscriptions to which he started bellowing and saying that it was his store and he could do what he liked and serve who he liked and call the police on who he liked. Other patrons within earshot were confused and I left the store after being told to call corporate, and that whether or not it was legal it wouldnt be happening in his store. Couldn't be happier to not shop there anymore.

    Next up was Staples, this was bad. Insttead of re writing it, I'll just post the complaint letter I submitted to Staples:

    "Hello there,
    I have a major concern regarding Staples corporate policy.
    I represent an advocacy group that supports the people of California and their right to carry an UNLOADED handgun OPENLY without a permit, legal under our Second Amendment Rights and California Penal Code: PC12031(e) and related codes.

    There are many members of our advocacy group here in Merced, and it is our right, complete with precedent and current legal codes, as California residents and United States citizens to openly carry our legal unloaded handguns in public places.
    This exercise in our rights is often met with resistance from the uninformed, the politically opposite and the ignorant. It is also the right of every business to refuse our patronage, and in the interests of avoiding conflict with proprietors, I visited the Staples center at 20 W Olive in Merced, CA (unarmed) and asked to speak with the manager available.

    A man approached me and after introductions informed me that it was against Staples policy for anyone to carry a firearm aside from police officers, inside the store. When he was unable to provide me with a statute or policy number, he suggested that it might be acceptable. He asked me why I would "drill him" about the various aspects of the law, and told me that I was "abrasive" and "unfriendly". Then your manager intimated to me that he would personally call the police on any individual lawfully carrying an unloaded firearm within the store. He said he would confront an individual openly carrying an unloaded firearm and ask them to disarm and leave the premises. He claimed this was within his decision making authority, whether or not it was corporate policy, as his first interest was in preserving the peace of mind of his customers. He also informed me that Staples followed all Federal and State laws and guidelines.

    I am not writing with regards unprofessional manner this manager used, and have as such left his name absent. I am writing to clarify Staples official policy regarding UNLOADED, OPEN carry of handguns in California State.

    Does Staples follow all Federal and State guidelines?
    Does Staples accept the 2nd Amendment as a right? (feel free to not answer this if you perceive it to be too political or as some kind of baiting)
    Does Staples recognize the authority of the State of California to determine the legality of openly carrying an unloaded firearm?
    Does Staples have a policy regarding its managers or associates and their power to ask a patron to leave, disarm, or provide proof of residency, concealed carry permit, or a firearms unloaded status?
    Does Staples have a policy encouraging its associates to call the police if a citizen is legally, openly carrying an unloaded firearm?

    I encourage you to forward this message to your legal department or policy makers for clarification, and to respond to me as soon as it is possible. Our organization has been told that we are not welcome in Staples at Merced, CA if we are openly carrying an unloaded firearm or legally possessing a concealed firearm. There are XXX of us, who have been effectively banned from the store, should we choose to execute our rights as citizens of the USA and residents of California.

    It is not our mission to cause trouble, but rather to protect ourselves and others, to deter crime, and encourage the acceptance of the possibility that law abiding citizens might be able to possess firearms.

    We sincerely appreciate your time, and I look forward to being welcome in your stores. I understand that questions such as these take time to properly formulate an accurate answer, and am looking forward to your reply.

    Yours,
    Andrew ----"

    Then came the Savemart, where the manager was a pleasure to speak with, Tim Rice his name was, and he said that he had his concerns about the comfort of his customer base, and that the store had been robbed before. He said he would contact corporate for clarification and if UOC and CC were accepted at Savemart then more power unto ourselves. I also enjoyed speaking with the delightful young black man greeting people at the door, he was excited to be joining the Marines and a proud supporter of the 2nd Amendment.

    The Bicycle World across the way said come on in, don't shoot noone and we welcome your business.

    That was about it, then I had to head back to UCM and pick up the battleaxe.
    I feel like I'm making a bit more connection with local businesses and making some headway into exposing people to open carry, without necessarily UOCing at the time.

    Next up: abusing the Universities' printers to make pamphlets!

    Thoughts on this?


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    Of course you dropped off multiple copies of the UOC pamphlet at each establishment?

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    State Pioneer ConditionThree's Avatar
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    heliopolissolutions wrote:
    This afternoon I went about a part of Merced that I frequent, and started asking various establishments what their policies, corporate and private were with regards to firearms, UOC, CCW, and spoke with them about various PC numbers and laws regarding their legality.

    Thoughts on this?
    I only have one question;

    Why?

    Private businesses can regulate who and what they permit on their private property. Futher, there are managers and administrators who are happy to tell you NO because they are the biggest fish in their little pond, regardless of what corporate says.

    Aggitating these peoplewith their false sense of security and overwhelming reluctance to embrace contraversy does absolutely nothing to change the perception of gun owners or educate outsiders that being armed is perfectly normal. Instead, they are left with an opportunity to tell you they dont permit firearms in their establishment even if there was no such policy before and take away from these encounters that people who like guns have some funny ideas on how to waste theirtime.

    Think about it; How about if someone who represents a 'Family Planning' organization came into your workplace to educate you about the availability of abortion, contraceptives,couselingand STD testing and asked what your companies stand is on providing 'Family Planning' resources to your customers and employees. Regardless of your personal feelings on the subject, it would be both highly unusual and extremely inappropriate, both in method and in venue.

    Its one thing to mention it casually among people you know, it is another to present yourself as a member or administrator of an advocacy organization under the pretense that you are advancing your cause by educating disinterested or hostile parties.

    In short, I wholly disagree with this approach.
    New to OPEN CARRY in California? Click and read this first...

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    CL SUBJ IN COMPLIANCE WITH LAW


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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    ConditionThree wrote:
    In short, I wholly disagree with this approach.
    I second this. Going around and confronting people on this issue will only make it top of mind for when someone does UOC in their businesses.

    I have never been asked to leave a place of business while UOCing (and I UOC everyday). I'm confident that had given the pizza shop advanced notice of my intentions to patronize while UOCing and give them a chance to go on record with there position regarding OC, I'd get a resounding "NO".

    When you just go about you're life (while armed) and carry yourself professionally, you'll be leading by example. Employees might not notice you're carrying, then after you've been sitting for 10 minutes peacefully eating your tacos they notice. They may think "well everything's been fine for the 10 minutes he's been in the restaurant, why bother him or other customers, we'll just keep an eye on him"

    Now with your approach, the manager can call the police and say "Uh yes he came in last week threatening to bring a gun in the store and I told him not to, I want him arrested for trespassing"

    I know your hearts in the right place, but please reconsider asking for permission to live your life legally.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bad_ace's Avatar
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    Oh and welcome to the forums
    Hope you can find all the information you need here.

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    It is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

    Carry wherever it is legal by law.

    Staples didn't have an issue with me in all the times I have been there.

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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter bigtoe416's Avatar
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    What I found the most interesting about this is the perceived reactions of the people you approached. They're all imagining a person with a gun from the movies or something. They're not imagining some normal person who just happens to have a sidearm on his hip.

    I think most of the places who said they would call the police wouldn't if you would have just carried in their establishment. They'd take a look at you, see that you're seemingly on the level, and not think that much of it.

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    Regular Member demnogis's Avatar
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    +1. If they don't want you there armed, they'll be happy to come up to you and kindly ask you to stow it in your car or leave.

    pullnshoot25 wrote:
    It is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission.

    Carry wherever it is legal by law.

    Staples didn't have an issue with me in all the times I have been there.
    Gun control isn't about guns -- it is about control.

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    bad_ace wrote:
    Now with your approach, the manager can call the police and say "Uh yes he came in last week threatening to bring a gun in the store and I told him not to, I want him arrested for trespassing"

    I know your hearts in the right place, but please reconsider asking for permission to live your life legally.
    I agree with bad_ace here. All his points are excellent, but this one now presents a real challenge for you if you choose to go in UOC'ing in these stores.

    I have called two stores in a similar approach to yours, that is prior toUOC'ing in their store,and both times they responded with an emphatic NO. Since then both stores have accepted OC, but in my case both stores were gun dealers and it didn't take much to get them to warm up to the idea. I won't be calling in advance any more and recommend you don't either. Just UOC legally, carry your voice recorder, and be a good ambassador for the cause.


    ETA: Oh, and welcome to the forum!
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    ConditionThree wrote:

    Think about it; How about if someone who represents a 'Family Planning' organization came into your workplace to educate you about the availability of abortion, contraceptives,¬*couseling¬*and STD testing and asked what your companies stand is on providing 'Family Planning' resources to your customers and employees. Regardless of your personal feelings on the subject, it would be both highly unusual and extremely inappropriate, both in method and in venue.

    Its one thing to mention it casually among people you know, it is another to present yourself as a member or administrator of an advocacy organization under the pretense that you are advancing your cause by educating disinterested or hostile parties.

    In short, I wholly disagree with this approach.
    [/quote]

    I'm not being belligerent when I say this, but I do not see the parallel between PP and UOC canvassing.

    My mindset, which, I see isn't perhaps the widely accepted one was that, "well, I am not trying to change a law, I'm trying to go my way legally. groups, particularly grassroots groups need exposure, that exposure can come in the shocking form of a M/WWAG and/or with old fashioned leaflettin. i do not want my fellow UOCers to have their day intruded upon by those who are completely ignorant and unaware of the legality of their actions. I should raise awareness."
    When I UOC I'm only implicitly stating its legality, rather than establishing the legality explicitly by stating and circulating the laws.
    If I didn't know it was a right for a black man to sit at the counter of my diner, I might throw him out on account of the level of discomfort it would cause my customers. (roleplaying 1960s)

    Gah. Well, ok, so if we don't like a senator, we call their office and tell them so, and we do not vote for them.
    In the same vein, if a business doesn't represent our interests, we call them, and tell them so, and do not give them our patronage.
    Tons of people refuse to set foot in Walmart because they disagree with their policies, and they make their distaste well known.

    A group of customers represents a potential loss for a business, and these are hard times, particularly in Merced.
    I wasn't threatening anyone with that, but I think that boycotting a store for not recognizing our rights if legit, and giving them that opportunity before galvanizing them against gun owners by confronting a UOCer is maybe a good idea.

    Wow, I'm long winded. What can I do to improve my plans to raise awareness? UOC is great, but I'd love it if I could spread the explicit legality of such action.

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    heliopolissolutions wrote:

    What can I do to improve my plans to raise awareness? UOC is great, but I'd love it if I could spread the explicit legality of such action.


    Go out UOC'ing, be a good ambassador, voice record for your protection, video record for youtube, carry the penal code and educational brochures and hand them out. Attend local meetups, organize local meetups, talk to your local gun shops and ranges and ask them if they will let you put said brochures in their stores. In short talk to people as in any grass roots campaign, just don't go out asking for permission first.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    It is bad enough to ask for a politician's permission to exercise a right. You now want to ask a business owner too?

    Just do it and CARRY ON.



    -N8

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    Sad face.

    I was sorta thinking that asking the policy of a business owner was more legit than asking a politician.

    Pamphlets, UOC, big smiles and no rudeness?
    It seems to me like a private business is going to do what its going to do. But a corporation or a branch of such can be pressured to expose its employees and associates to their policy of obeying State and Federal law, and as such avoid any confrontation or loss in business.

    As for calling the fuzz on a M/WWAG, if you are aware of the legality of such a person carrying a firearm, and call 911 in spite of that. Are you placing a frivolous or illegitimate call to the police? Such a waste of my taxpayer money, the police's time and the ensuing unpleasant encounter, should be met with some kind of consequence, no?

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    heliopolissolutions wrote:
    Sad face.

    I was sorta thinking that asking the policy of a business owner was more legit than asking a politician.

    Pamphlets, UOC, big smiles and no rudeness?
    It seems to me like a private business is going to do what its going to do. But a corporation or a branch of such can be pressured to expose its employees and associates to their policy of obeying State and Federal law, and as such avoid any confrontation or loss in business.

    As for calling the fuzz on a M/WWAG, if you are aware of the legality of such a person carrying a firearm, and call 911 in spite of that. Are you placing a frivolous or illegitimate call to the police? Such a waste of my taxpayer money, the police's time and the ensuing unpleasant encounter, should be met with some kind of consequence, no?
    What's there to be sad about? Other than we have to continue to wait for 2A incorporation to this state.

    Yes a private business will always reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. That is their right as it is yours in your business and home. But its also an opportunity to educate the business' manager,owner, and/or employees.

    Its also an opportunity for the public to see an upstanding, law-abiding citizen safely and responsibly gun carry for personal protection. So be sure to have multiple copies of the brochures with you.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    I guess its kind of hard to accept that discourse is not an ideal way of resolving a difference of knowledge. As a student, its par for the course to question, question, question, why, why, why like a child.
    Its hard to erode the stigma that comes with firearms after such a fantastically good job has been done demonizing them and those that carry them.

    Go big or go home? Be a bear, be a grizzly?
    I guess discourse will have to wait for the city council and LEO.

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    I've open carried into local branches of most the businesses you listed. I've never had a problem at any of them. In fact, of over 100 businesses I've patronized while openly armed, only the Turlock Costco had a problem with it.

    I've never asked in advance, and have had less than 1% rejection rate. Your method seems to be up around 80%+ rejection rate.

    I'd say the numbers speak for which is the better method of getting what you want.

    (That's not to say you couldn't achieve a different goal with your methods; just don't expect to be well-recieved with your method.)
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    I've open carried into local branches of most the businesses you listed. I've never had a problem at any of them. In fact, of over 100 businesses I've patronized while openly armed, only the Turlock Costco had a problem with it.

    I've never asked in advance, and have had less than 1% rejection rate. Your method seems to be up around 80%+ rejection rate.

    I'd say the numbers speak for which is the better method of getting what you want.

    (That's not to say you couldn't achieve a different goal with your methods; just don't expect to be well-recieved with your method.)
    Basically the same here. Only place I was asked to leave was a Chuck E Cheeses after being there for over an hour!

    And I have carried in a long list of places.

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    heliopolissolutions wrote:
    I guess its kind of hard to accept that discourse is not an ideal way of resolving a difference of knowledge. As a student, its par for the course to question, question, question, why, why, why like a child.
    Its hard to erode the stigma that comes with firearms after such a fantastically good job has been done demonizing them and those that carry them.
    That's precisely why I created the educational pamphlet. It is an educational document for those who would question you about your UOC activities. It's primary audience is for the vast majority of those who would never carry openly or concealed. It educates onour history, court decisions, what the police can't and won't do, and why we open carry. To me this pamphlet is our voice...let itteach for you.
    "Why should judicial precedent bind the nation if the Constitution itself does not?" -- Mark Levin

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    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    ROFL chuck e cheese....I spit out my soda when i read that.

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    greengum wrote:
    ROFL chuck e cheese....I spit out my soda when i read that.
    They wouldn't have asked him to leave if he wasn't wearing his shoes in the ball pit.
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    I was at the Hooter's in Fresno and I overheard one of the bouncer types there gabbing on and on about his time as security at chuck-e-cheese and how the mascot needed a bodyguard to keep him safe and how he wished he could carry a gun.

    I don't know if thats relevant, but I thought it was funny that that was the best game he could spit.

    :celebrate

  22. #22
    Regular Member greengum's Avatar
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    CA_Libertarian wrote:
    greengum wrote:
    ROFL chuck e cheese....I spit out my soda when i read that.
    They wouldn't have asked him to leave if he wasn't wearing his shoes in the ball pit.
    OK new rule, you can't make me laugh on Sunday afternoons! Instead of spitting out soda I spit out my afternoon game beer! Now this is getting personal!!

    To helio, rofl i know that guy wasn't getting laid!

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