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Thread: Man with a Gun in a Holster Call

  1. #1
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Last Saturday 09/19/2009 I heard a call over the scanner here in Yakima that a man with a gun in a holster call came across at Starbucks in the Fred Meyers Complex on 40th ave.

    I heard the "gun in a holster" and was wondering why they are dispatching an Officer to that location as there is nothing illegal about it.
    I assume a citizen called in as the Officer called Starbucks to ascertain if they called and the business did not.

    Yakima Police Force which I do appreciate and have a high regard for responded with approximately 6 cars and around 8 Officers that staged and the converged upon Starbucks and found the person open carrying had already left, I can understand this if there were other information indicating illegal activity which they may of had.

    I have seen others in Yakima carry openly and with out alarm and conducting themselves in a professional manner.
    What does concern me is that legal carry people being subjected being stopped, searched and detained for nothing more then being spotted legally carrying a firearm in a holster.

    My main mode of carry is concealed but sometimes it is open carry depending what I am doing and on the chance that I may also be exposed to that "Man with a Gun" call as well.

    Using crimemapping.com you can see Yakima had 24 firearms calls in one week 113 in one month.

    With these numbers is appears all firearms calls are being treated as illegal and maybe in violation of a Terry Stop.
    If there is members here in Yakima or close by I would be happy to participate in a meet and greet with them and others at various Coffee Shops in Yakima to help educate our law enforcement and community that there are responsible knowledgeable people that open carry.

    There maybe a possibility to get the local Newspaper involved as well.

    State v Gregory Casad and United States District Judge Bruce D. Black of the United States District Court for New Mexico recently ruled Police Cannot Detain people for openly carrying guns with out having reason to believe that a crime is afoot.

    I did read about the success everyone had in Silverdale, WA city park and want to thank each of you that participated.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    I'm in Sunnyside. I got detained about a month two months ago for "openly concealing."
    I checked the Sunnyside crime map, and it didn't make it on there.
    http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum55/29685.html
    It's pretty clear from the cases you mentioned and State V Spencer (Which is quoted in the unpublished Casad) that OC is legal, and no grounds for a stop. I believe, based on the case (State V Giles) that I quoted in my post above (towards the end) that they don't even have Reasonable and Articulable Suspicion until they believe that you don't have a license, so CC doesn't even justify a Terry Stop. I considered writing another nice letter to the SPD about my findings, but the Chief called me to talk to me about the incident, so I dropped it.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    cynicist Sunnyside has a different mapping program but does basically the same thing.

    http://www.crimereports.com/map/inde...=+Sunnyside+WA

    It reports 9 weapon offenses in the last month.

    After looking through both reporting maps, accuracy is unknown to me but out of around the 8 or so cities I have checked, Yakima hands down has the largest amount of gun violations reported by 3 to 8 more times the calls.

    Weapons calls are defined on one call to what it is shots fired, display of a gun and so on while the other just reports it as a gun violation.

    Note there is a lot of shots fired in Yakima, likely gang activity and actual illegal activity but the numbers sure seem out of line and lends to how many illegal stops are occurring on law abiding citizens exercising their rights lawfully.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Ok folks, someone chime in here....

    Is Cassad more in our favor now? I guess what I am getting at is this. In Washington this is a unpublished case and really can't be used however now that the judge in the 11th court has used it as a basis for this particular case, does it now become published and more useful to the cause?

    On these facts, Judge Black concluded as a matter of law that the police violated Matthew St. John's constitutional rights under the Fourth Amendmentbecause they seized and disarmed himeven though there was not "any reason to believe that a crime was afoot." Judge Black's opinion is consistent with numerous high state and federal appellate courts, e.g., the United States Supreme Court in Florida v. J.L. (2000) (detaining man on mere report that he has a gun violates the Fourth Amendment) and the Washington Appeals Court in State v. Casad (2004) (detaining man observed by police as openly carrying rifles on a public street violates the Fourth Amendment).


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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    I don't think that's Judge Black actually using State v. Casad for anything, it's Mike Stollenwerk drawing parallels with State v. Casad in analyzing Black's opinion.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d9-Federal-judge-rules-police-cannot-detain-people-for-openly-carrying-guns

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    John Hardin wrote:
    I don't think that's Judge Black actually using State v. Casad for anything, it's Mike Stollenwerk drawing parallels with State v. Casad in analyzing Black's opinion.

    http://www.examiner.com/x-2782-DC-Gun-Rights-Examiner~y2009m9d9-Federal-judge-rules-police-cannot-detain-people-for-openly-carrying-guns
    Correct, now I have have read Judge Black's opinion and order (read here). The Judge did not use Casad.

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    It reports 9 weapon offenses in the last month. After looking through both reporting maps, accuracy is unknown to me but out of around the 8 or so cities I have checked, Yakima hands down has the largest amount of gun violations reported by 3 to 8 more times the calls. Weapons calls are defined on one call to what it is shots fired, display of a gun and so on while the other just reports it as a gun violation.
    In the Sside ones that I checked, there was "other - weapons offense - shots fired" or "other - weapons offense - weapons offense," which could be anything from an MWAG to a kid with a pocketknife.
    Also there are two "Assault-Firearm." I also just noticed that one of the "shots fired" is on my street. Must've been at work.
    When I was sitting in the back of the cop car I could see "X block of S 6th St - Weapons Offense," but I presume since it was CNA (clear no arrest) it didn't make it onto the system.


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    Did I misunderstand this... How can you "Openly Conceal" something? or was it a typo? Not trying to be a troll here.

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Scooter88310 wrote:
    Did I misunderstand this... How can you "Openly Conceal" something? or was it a typo? Not trying to be a troll here.
    Yes you misunderstood and I have may help the misunderstanding as to how it was written.

    My main mode of carry is concealed but sometimes it is open carry depending what I am doing and on the chance that I may also be exposed to that "Man with a Gun" call as well.
    My main mode of carry is concealed although sometimes when doing so my weapon becomes exposed as to bending, reaching or even removing outer clothing (vest or jacket) in a warm environment to at times open carry.

    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    I see. Thanks

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    I have OC'ed at Round Table a couple of times now and in Fred Meyers once or twice all without any problems.


    But if your wanting to arrange a get-together for an evening meal or some such I am all for it. Daytime runs would be out as I work in Sunnyside

  12. #12
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Rizzin wrote:
    I have OC'ed at Round Table a couple of times now and in Fred Meyers once or twice all without any problems.


    But if your wanting to arrange a get-together for an evening meal or some such I am all for it. Daytime runs would be out as I work in Sunnyside
    I think that would be a good idea and maybe others in our area would like to join in as well.

    How about Saturday Oct. 17 2009 at a restaurant yet to be determined.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  13. #13
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    No known plans for that weekend, Your on Dave

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