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Thread: Is this legal?

  1. #1
    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    "Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle beyond a roadway upon places used by deer without written permission of the landowner or at anytime while in the possession of a rifle, shotgun, pistol, archery tackle, or speargun."

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ns/general.asp

    I know someone that rides out with a spotlight just for the sole purpose of looking. I was going to join him this year. According to DGIF I can't have my concealed carry pistol on me.

    It just doesn't seem right.


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    Interesting conflict in rights & the law.

    I can see how they wouldn't want someone who was spotting deer with a gun to be able to beg off that they were "just looking," but there should be reasonable accomodations for self-defense carriers.

    Related side story: Years ago, we had a neighbor whose brother was shot & killed by Game Wardens. Seems he was spotting deer while hungting (years ago in Marshall), they caught him, he thought his best course of action was to open fire. :shock:

    He lost.

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    "Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle beyond a roadway upon places used by deer without written permission of the landowner or at anytime while in the possession of a rifle, shotgun, pistol, archery tackle, or speargun."

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ns/general.asp

    I know someone that rides out with a spotlight just for the sole purpose of looking. I was going to join him this year. According to DGIF I can't have my concealed carry pistol on me.

    It just doesn't seem right.

    Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle

    So... get out of the truck with your hand held spotlight. The law says "attached to" and "from a vehicle".



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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    doug23838 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    "Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle beyond a roadway upon places used by deer without written permission of the landowner or at anytime while in the possession of a rifle, shotgun, pistol, archery tackle, or speargun."

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ns/general.asp

    I know someone that rides out with a spotlight just for the sole purpose of looking. I was going to join him this year. According to DGIF I can't have my concealed carry pistol on me.

    It just doesn't seem right.
    Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle

    So... get out of the truck with your hand held spotlight. The law says "attached to" and "from a vehicle".
    Hmm, I bet that rule was written before the fairly recent proliferation of rechargeable spotlights. At one time, probably before the battery technology was what it is today, they were all cig-lighter plug powered.

    I wonder if this would fall under preemption... The DGIF can certainly tell you that you cannot hunt with a light, but seems clear that this would fall under the preemption of carry or transport.

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran T Dubya's Avatar
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    doug23838 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    "Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle beyond a roadway upon places used by deer without written permission of the landowner or at anytime while in the possession of a rifle, shotgun, pistol, archery tackle, or speargun."

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ns/general.asp

    I know someone that rides out with a spotlight just for the sole purpose of looking. I was going to join him this year. According to DGIF I can't have my concealed carry pistol on me.

    It just doesn't seem right.

    Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle

    So... get out of the truck with your hand held spotlight. The law says "attached to" and "from a vehicle".



    Well, as soon as you open the door they are probably going to disappear. Spotlighting is a good way tolook at a herd.

    Seems like it would fall under preemption to me too.


    "These are the shock troops (opencarry.org) of the gun lobby. And, they are not going away."
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    T Dubya wrote:
    doug23838 wrote:
    T Dubya wrote:
    "Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle beyond a roadway upon places used by deer without written permission of the landowner or at anytime while in the possession of a rifle, shotgun, pistol, archery tackle, or speargun."

    http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting...ns/general.asp

    I know someone that rides out with a spotlight just for the sole purpose of looking. I was going to join him this year. According to DGIF I can't have my concealed carry pistol on me.

    It just doesn't seem right.

    Cast a light attached to a vehicle or from a vehicle

    So... get out of the truck with your hand held spotlight. The law says "attached to" and "from a vehicle".



    Well, as soon as you open the door they are probably going to disappear. Spotlighting is a good way tolook at a herd.

    Seems like it would fall under preemption to me too.

    It won't fall under preemption because it is in a statute. DGIF has no legislative authotity other than etting hunting seasons, etc. Everything else is enacted by the General Assembly.

    § 29.1-525. Employment of lights under certain circumstances upon places used by deer.
    A. Any person in any vehicle and then in possession of any firearm, crossbow, bow and arrow or speargun who employs a light attached to the vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight to cast a light beyond the water or surface of the roadway upon any place used by deer shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Every person in or on any such vehicle shall be deemed prima facie a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree. This subsection shall not apply to a landowner in possession of a weapon when he is on his own land and is making a bona fide effort to protect his property from damage by deer and not for the purpose of killing deer unless the landowner is in possession of a permit to do so pursuant to the provisions of § 29.1-529.
    B. Any person in any motor vehicle who deliberately employs a light attached to such vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight to cast a light beyond the surface of the roadway upon any place used by deer, except upon his own land or upon land on which he has an easement or permission for such purpose, shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor. Every person in or on any such vehicle shall be deemed prima facie a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree.
    C. In addition to the penalties prescribed in subsection A of this section, the court shall revoke the current hunting license, if any, of the person convicted of a violation of subsection A of this section and prohibit the issuance of any hunting license to that person for the next license year. In addition to the penalties prescribed in subsection B of this section, the court may revoke the current hunting license, if any, of the person convicted of a violation of subsection B of this section and prohibit the issuance of any hunting license to that person for the next license year. If a person convicted of a violation of subsection A or subsection B of this section is found hunting during the prohibited period, the person shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Notification of such revocation or prohibition shall be forwarded to the Department pursuant to subsections C and D of § 18.2-56.1.
    (1962, c. 520, § 29-144.4; 1973, c. 369; 1974, c. 101; 1980, cc. 602, 607, § 29-144.4:1; 1981, c. 60; 1987, c. 488; 1988, c. 450; 1994, c. 113; 2002, c. 157.)
    [line]




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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Appears to be bad news. This is not a matter for preemption, it's current in the Code of Virginia.

    There are two parts to this law, first the killing of a deer using lights, and second, the presumption of guilt if you are lighting deer while in possession of a firearm.

    The first part says to kill the deer in actual violation of this statute, you must "use ... a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or a flashlight" [notice, no "from any vehicle"]. The second part, however, says "the flashing of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight from any vehicle...".

    Notice the subtle difference? If you kill the deer, you break the law if the light is attached to any vehicle, but also any spotlight or flashlight. To be presumed guilty (no dead deer), the light must be attached or from any vehicle, and while you are in possession of a firearm.

    Is this subtle difference on purpose? I would certainly not want to test the game warden on that, however it would make for an interesting casual conversation while looking at a copy of the law over a root beer.

    I am not at all familiar with the sort of person who would violate this law, but as a person who "hangs out" here among those who regularly carry firearms and somehow manage to go without actually breaking laws, I have to say it's very disturbing that this law presumes criminal activity by mere possession of a firearm while conducting otherwise legal activity. (I assume it is "legal" to spotlight deer if you are not carrying a firearm.) ETA: oops, apparently it is not... see the post before!

    Looks like this one will have to be changed through "the process".

    TFred

    § 29.1-523. Killing deer by use of certain lights; acts raising presumption of attempt to kill.

    Any person who kills or attempts to kill any deer between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise by use of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. The flashing of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight from any vehicle between a half hour after sunset and half hour before sunrise by any person or persons, then in possession of a firearm, crossbow, or bow and arrow or speargun, without good cause, shall raise a presumption of an attempt to kill deer in violation of this section. Every person in or on any such vehicle shall be deemed a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree. Every person who, in any manner, aids, abets or acts in concert with any person or persons violating this section shall be deemed a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree.

    In addition to the penalty prescribed herein, the court shall revoke the current hunting license, if any, of the person convicted of violating this section and prohibit the issuance of any hunting license to that person for the next license year. If found hunting during this prohibited period, the person shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Notification of such revocation or prohibition shall be forwarded to the Department pursuant to subsections C and D of § 18.2-56.1.

    This section shall not apply to persons duly authorized to kill deer according to the provisions of § 29.1-529.
    ETA: Correction, apparently spotlighting is not legal even without a firearm. Is this new?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    Appears to be bad news. This is not a matter for preemption, it's current in the Code of Virginia.

    There are two parts to this law, first the killing of a deer using lights, and second, the presumption of guilt if you are lighting deer while in possession of a firearm.

    The first part says to kill the deer in actual violation of this statute, you must "use ... a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or a flashlight" [notice, no "from any vehicle"]. The second part, however, says "the flashing of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight from any vehicle...".

    Notice the subtle difference? If you kill the deer, you break the law if the light is attached to any vehicle, but also any spotlight or flashlight. To be presumed guilty (no dead deer), the light must be attached or from any vehicle, and while you are in possession of a firearm.

    Is this subtle difference on purpose? I would certainly not want to test the game warden on that, however it would make for an interesting casual conversation while looking at a copy of the law over a root beer.

    I am not at all familiar with the sort of person who would violate this law, but as a person who "hangs out" here among those who regularly carry firearms and somehow manage to go without actually breaking laws, I have to say it's very disturbing that this law presumes criminal activity by mere possession of a firearm while conducting otherwise legal activity. (I assume it is "legal" to spotlight deer if you are not carrying a firearm.) ETA: oops, apparently it is not... see the post before!

    Looks like this one will have to be changed through "the process".

    TFred

    § 29.1-523. Killing deer by use of certain lights; acts raising presumption of attempt to kill.

    Any person who kills or attempts to kill any deer between a half hour after sunset and a half hour before sunrise by use of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. The flashing of a light attached to any vehicle or a spotlight or flashlight from any vehicle between a half hour after sunset and half hour before sunrise by any person or persons, then in possession of a firearm, crossbow, or bow and arrow or speargun, without good cause, shall raise a presumption of an attempt to kill deer in violation of this section. Every person in or on any such vehicle shall be deemed a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree. Every person who, in any manner, aids, abets or acts in concert with any person or persons violating this section shall be deemed a principal in the second degree and subject to the same punishment as a principal in the first degree.

    In addition to the penalty prescribed herein, the court shall revoke the current hunting license, if any, of the person convicted of violating this section and prohibit the issuance of any hunting license to that person for the next license year. If found hunting during this prohibited period, the person shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. Notification of such revocation or prohibition shall be forwarded to the Department pursuant to subsections C and D of § 18.2-56.1.

    This section shall not apply to persons duly authorized to kill deer according to the provisions of § 29.1-529.
    ETA: Correction, apparently spotlighting is not legal even without a firearm. Is this new?
    It's been added and revised over the years Fred. What they tried to do i cover every possible defense poachers have.

    It's a major problem. I've seen people take 30 deer in one night and seen guides that have been paid to GET THE CLIENT A TROPHY, spotlight a big buck so his client could shoot it with a bow and go back and collect it in the morning.

    I've got no problems with the statute. If you carry, don't spotlight and you won't be defenseless.

    Actually, if you spotlight without any weapon, get ready to do some splaining cause that's a hot button for the CP's.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    peter nap wrote:
    It's been added and revised over the years Fred. What they tried to do i cover every possible defense poachers have.

    It's a major problem. I've seen people take 30 deer in one night and seen guides that have been paid to GET THE CLIENT A TROPHY, spotlight a big buck so his client could shoot it with a bow and go back and collect it in the morning.

    I've got no problems with the statute. If you carry, don't spotlight and you won't be defenseless.

    Actually, if you spotlight without any weapon, get ready to do some splaining cause that's a hot button for the CP's.
    Well, that is very unfortunate. I used to spotlight near the folks house 20-25 years ago, so maybe I wasn't breaking the law after all. Never with any guns of course, just a kid looking for some deer.

    Yet once again, the criminals make trouble for the law-abiding. I see a trend.

    TFred


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    TFred wrote:
    peter nap wrote:
    It's been added and revised over the years Fred. What they tried to do i cover every possible defense poachers have.

    It's a major problem. I've seen people take 30 deer in one night and seen guides that have been paid to GET THE CLIENT A TROPHY, spotlight a big buck so his client could shoot it with a bow and go back and collect it in the morning.

    I've got no problems with the statute. If you carry, don't spotlight and you won't be defenseless.

    Actually, if you spotlight without any weapon, get ready to do some splaining cause that's a hot button for the CP's.
    Well, that is very unfortunate. I used to spotlight near the folks house 20-25 years ago, so maybe I wasn't breaking the law after all. Never with any guns of course, just a kid looking for some deer.

    Yet once again, the criminals make trouble for the law-abiding. I see a trend.

    TFred
    It is a shame Fred. Spotlighters don't use defensive handguns, they usually use a 22lr and aim for the head. Low noise and either the deer goes down in his tracks or runs off unhurt.

    I have a deer target (3d) that I use for archery practice and I've had those a$$holes shoot that.

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    Regular Member paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Game Wardens have more power than regular LEOs.

    Some GWs abuse their power but rarely get gigged for it.

    Don't put yourself in a position to be a GW's next catch.

    They can seize your vehicle and weapon permanently.

    If all this ticks you off, take it up with your elected representative.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

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    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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    Regular Member doug23838's Avatar
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    paramedic70002 wrote:
    Game Wardens have more power than regular LEOs.

    Some GWs abuse their power but rarely get gigged for it.

    Don't put yourself in a position to be a GW's next catch.

    They can seize your vehicle and weapon permanently.

    If all this ticks you off, take it up with your elected representative.
    Sometimes they get caught: http://www.opengovva.org/in-the-news...irginian-pilot





  13. #13
    Regular Member MSC 45ACP's Avatar
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    I won't even THINK about the crimes committed if you're OCing or CCing through the Yorktown Battlefield and use a flashlight to see the deer at night.

    I bet there is a laundry list of bad stuff you did just to show your kids a few deer at night...


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    However, like most of us, as I go through my daily life, I carry something a bit more compact, with a lot less power."
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    Regular Member virginiatuck's Avatar
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    It is lawful to hunt most nuisance species and fur-bearing animals at night; it is lawful to use a pistol to hunt nuisance species. A hunting license is required.

    I'm just sayin............. maybe you could do something useful while you're out at night with a light and a pistol/revolver.


    § 29.1-100. Definitions.
    <snip>
    "Nuisance species" means blackbirds, crows, cowbirds, grackles, English sparrows, starlings, or those species designated as such by regulations of the Board, and those species found committing or about to commit depredation upon ornamental or shade trees, agricultural crops, wildlife, livestock or other property or when concentrated in numbers and manners as to constitute a health hazard or other nuisance. However, the term nuisance does not include (i) animals designated as endangered or threatened pursuant to §§ 29.1-563, 29.1-564, and 29.1-566, (ii) animals classified as game or fur-bearing animals, and (iii) those species protected by state or federal law.
    <snip>

    4VAC15-20-160. Nuisance species designated.
    A. The board hereby designates the following species as nuisance species pursuant to § 29.1-100 of the Code of Virginia.
    1. Mammals.
    a. House mouse (Mus musculus);
    b. Norway rat (Rattus norvegicus);
    c. Black rat (Rattus rattus);
    d. Coyote (Canis latrans);
    e. Feral hog (Sus scrofa);
    f. Nutria (Myocastor coypus); and
    g. Woodchuck (Marmota monax).
    2. Birds.
    a. European starling (Sturnus vulgaris);
    b. English (house) sparrow (Passer domesticus); and
    c. Pigeon (Rock Dove) (Columba livia).
    d. Other nonnative species as defined in the Migratory Bird Treaty Reform Act of 2004 and regulated under 50 CFR 10.13.
    B. It shall be unlawful to take, possess, transport, or sell all other wildlife species not classified as game, furbearer or nuisance, or otherwise specifically permitted by law or regulation.
    Statutory Authority
    §§ 29.1-501 and 29.1-502 of the Code of Virginia.


    § 29.1-511. Open season on nuisance species.
    There shall be a continuous open season for killing nuisance species of wild birds and wild animals as defined in § 29.1-100.

    § 29.1-519. Guns, pistols, revolvers, etc., which may be used; penalty.
    <snip>
    B. A pistol, muzzle-loading pistol or revolver may be used to hunt nuisance species of birds and animals.
    <snip>

    § 29.1-520. Times for hunting.
    <snip>
    B. Fur-bearing animals and nuisance species of birds and animals may be hunted by day or by night, except that muskrats may be hunted by day only.
    <snip>




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