Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: I messed up. No OC at ANY place selling alcohol?

  1. #1
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    I thought I had researched OC'ing fully before I jumped in but it looks like I did not. Lucky for me a member just informed me of my mistake before any problems came up. I do NOT have a cpl. It's just to much money for a little card right now. I swear I had read this information here, and it was my understanding that you simply could not oc in a place that got 50% of it's income from SERVING alcohol in open containers for consuming on the premises (meaning a bar). Thus, a store (like walmart) that only sells packaged alcohol to take home was not off limits by this rule. Also, a restaurant (like applebees) that does serve drinks but makes most of its income from food was also not off limits. Was this information all for CPL holders only? Did I just completely dream all that up?

    A big thanks to Bronson for saving my butt from a very bad situation.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    22

    Post imported post

    If a location is licensed by the state liquor board in any capacity, and you don't have a CPL, you can't OC there. Period. Yes, that means that many retail establishments are off limits for OC for non-CPL holders, no matter what alcohol they sell, how it's sold, or how much or how little it is of their business.

  3. #3
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    Thanks for the info. I don't know how I made that mistake. Just read something wrong I guess. Guess I'll have to get my cpl sooner rather then later. In my opinion there should be a distinction between a place for drinking and a place for buying stuff. But of course there's no reason you shouldn't be able to have your gun in your car without a cpl either. I guess I just need a cpl.

  4. #4
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    22

    Post imported post

    Furthermore, it's the act of just being licensed to sell that triggers the prohibition. They don't need to actually have anything alcoholic for sale the day you're there for you to technically violate the law! I would never OC without a CPL into any establishment if I had even a teensy tiny belief they might be licensed. McDonald's? Probably safe. Random convenience store? Probably not a good idea.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    OKC, OK (Heading back to MI very soon - thank goodness)
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    The problems and confusion come in when you read the MSP website and it states all the stuff about the majority of their revenue coming from the sale of alcohol and all that jazz. To be honest, most LE agencies do not enforce this, butpeople should obviously always obey theletter of the law - regardless.

    For example: The PA in Manistee County claims that they do not enforce this particular law in this manner, but he will not always be the PA. Also, he could be a two-faced liar who is just looking to bust somebody...
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    The link above will allow you to search for all the current liquor license holders in your county.

    DrTodd made a good point onthis subject inthat some hotels and motels are licensed to sell liquor in the rooms so that may be a no-no too.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  7. #7
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    Bronson wrote:
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    The link above will allow you to search for all the current liquor license holders in your county.

    DrTodd made a good point onthis subject inthat some hotels and motels are licensed to sell liquor in the rooms so that may be a no-no too.

    Bronson
    Wow, I immediately thought of little gas stations and party stores but hotels/motels didn't even cross my mind. I thought OC was a little easier.

    Ok, one more qustion. So let's say I get my cpl tomorrow. That would mean I CAN carry in a place with a liquor license. While in those places, I am REQUIRED to OC. CC is still forbiden. Correct?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    That's where it gets confusing.

    WITH a CPL you may carry openly or concealed in a place licensed to sell alcohol (grocery store, corner store, etc).

    The only way to carry in a place that earns the majority of their income from the sale of alcohol for consumption on the premises(bar, tavern, etc) is to have your CPL AND open carry. Ok, it's not the only way because you may also carry there with the express permission of the owner or agent of the owner.

    If I missed anything I'm sure someone will jump in.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  9. #9
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    qqq1 wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    The link above will allow you to search for all the current liquor license holders in your county.

    DrTodd made a good point onthis subject inthat some hotels and motels are licensed to sell liquor in the rooms so that may be a no-no too.

    Bronson
    Wow, I immediately thought of little gas stations and party stores but hotels/motels didn't even cross my mind. I thought OC was a little easier.

    Ok, one more qustion. So let's say I get my cpl tomorrow. That would mean I CAN carry in a place with a liquor license. While in those places, I am REQUIRED to OC. CC is still forbiden. Correct?
    No, you can carry in anyplace that sells alcohol (with CPL) as long as they don't get their primary source of income (more than 50%) from the sale of alcohol by the glass.

    In those that get more than 50%, is where you must OC (with CPL of course) to be legal.

    This would mean you could CC in a liquor store, because while their income is 99%+ alcohol, they don't sell it by the glass for consumption.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong!!
    Rand Paul 2016

  10. #10
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    Yooper wrote:
    qqq1 wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    The link above will allow you to search for all the current liquor license holders in your county.

    DrTodd made a good point onthis subject inthat some hotels and motels are licensed to sell liquor in the rooms so that may be a no-no too.

    Bronson
    Wow, I immediately thought of little gas stations and party stores but hotels/motels didn't even cross my mind. I thought OC was a little easier.

    Ok, one more qustion. So let's say I get my cpl tomorrow. That would mean I CAN carry in a place with a liquor license. While in those places, I am REQUIRED to OC. CC is still forbiden. Correct?
    No, you can carry in anyplace that sells alcohol (with CPL) as long as they don't get their primary source of income (more than 50%) from the sale of alcohol by the glass.

    In those that get more than 50%, is where you must OC (with CPL of course) to be legal.

    This would mean you could CC in a liquor store, because while their income is 99%+ alcohol, they don't sell it by the glass for consumption.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong!!
    OOoohhhh, that's where I got that "50% of sales" crap. THANK YOU. Does this also apply for all the other restricted areas? Meaning with a cpl, I can NOT CC but CAN OC at... a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital.

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    qqq1 wrote:
    Yooper wrote:
    qqq1 wrote:
    Bronson wrote:
    http://www2.dleg.state.mi.us/llist/

    The link above will allow you to search for all the current liquor license holders in your county.

    DrTodd made a good point onthis subject inthat some hotels and motels are licensed to sell liquor in the rooms so that may be a no-no too.

    Bronson
    Wow, I immediately thought of little gas stations and party stores but hotels/motels didn't even cross my mind. I thought OC was a little easier.

    Ok, one more qustion. So let's say I get my cpl tomorrow. That would mean I CAN carry in a place with a liquor license. While in those places, I am REQUIRED to OC. CC is still forbiden. Correct?
    No, you can carry in anyplace that sells alcohol (with CPL) as long as they don't get their primary source of income (more than 50%) from the sale of alcohol by the glass.

    In those that get more than 50%, is where you must OC (with CPL of course) to be legal.

    This would mean you could CC in a liquor store, because while their income is 99%+ alcohol, they don't sell it by the glass for consumption.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong!!
    OOoohhhh, that's where I got that "50% of sales" crap. THANK YOU. Does this also apply for all the other restricted areas? Meaning with a cpl, I can NOT CC but CAN OC at... a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital.
    According to MCL28.425o and W/ a CPL you may: CC or OC at a bank; OC at a church; NO-C at a court-- (see Michigan Supreme Court Rule regarding firearms); OC at a sports arena, OC at a Daycare center; OC at a hospital. This does not cover any possible exceptions such as "with permission, etc."

    BTW... state law in the same section says that one may not carry concealed in "(d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business."The problem here is the use of the word primary... a bar/ tavern could have many sources of income, with sales of alcohol by the glass constituting less than 50% of the bar's income and still be the "primary" source of income... the problem is "How would anyone know whether alcohol for consumption on premises is the "primary" source of income or not??
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    qqq1 wrote:
    OOoohhhh, that's where I got that "50% of sales" crap. THANK YOU. Does this also apply for all the other restricted areas? Meaning with a cpl, I can NOT CC but CAN OC at... a) A Bank. b) A church. c) A court. d) A theatre. e) A sports arena. f) A day care center. g) A hospital.
    It does, but like always, there are exemptions. Through a court order, a court is a no-no, whether OC, CC, or OC with CPL, don't carry in a court.

    Places restricted by federal law (Post office, govt buildings, etc) are a no-no....sort of.
    You can research online and find arguments about whether carrying in a post office is ok or not. But since there is no case law about it, I wouldn't.

    Remember though, banks, most hospitals, theaters, day care centers are PRIVATE property, and they can ask you to leave. If you don't, it's trespassing.
    Rand Paul 2016

  13. #13
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    Thanks again for all the help. I'm a generally smart guy but all this legal jabber makes my head spin. I would be fine with 1 law... "Completing a cpl course will grant you the right to carry, OC or CC, anywhere in michigan. Any owner of private property (i.e. store/restaurant/home owner) who does not wish to allow guns on the premises MUST have posted a no guns sign on all entrances at all times." There. Now everyone gets a little training on thier gun and everyone knows for sure that if there isn't a big sign that says "NO GUNS" you are all set. Then watch the "no guns" places get robbed 10 times more then anywhere else.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    qqq1 wrote:
    Thanks again for all the help. I'm a generally smart guy but all this legal jabber makes my head spin. I would be fine with 1 law... "Completing a cpl course will grant you the right to carry, OC or CC, anywhere in michigan. Any owner of private property (i.e. store/restaurant/home owner) who does not wish to allow guns on the premises MUST have posted a no guns sign on all entrances at all times." There. Now everyone gets a little training on thier gun and everyone knows for sure that if there isn't a big sign that says "NO GUNS" you are all set. Then watch the "no guns" places get robbed 10 times more then anywhere else.
    I disagree, That would require a mandate to exercise a right. I'd like to see "Any person not convicted of a violent crime against another may carry a firearm provided that the firearm is not used in connection with any criminal activity"
    Rand Paul 2016

  15. #15
    Newbie
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Saginaw, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    81

    Post imported post

    Yooper wrote:
    qqq1 wrote:
    Thanks again for all the help. I'm a generally smart guy but all this legal jabber makes my head spin. I would be fine with 1 law... "Completing a cpl course will grant you the right to carry, OC or CC, anywhere in michigan. Any owner of private property (i.e. store/restaurant/home owner) who does not wish to allow guns on the premises MUST have posted a no guns sign on all entrances at all times." There. Now everyone gets a little training on thier gun and everyone knows for sure that if there isn't a big sign that says "NO GUNS" you are all set. Then watch the "no guns" places get robbed 10 times more then anywhere else.
    I disagree, That would require a mandate to exercise a right. I'd like to see "Any person not convicted of a violent crime against another may carry a firearm provided that the firearm is not used in connection with any criminal activity"
    Yes, yours would be better. While training should not be required to fully exercise your right, even I will admit it would be nice to know people actually know how to properly use their weapon. I'm from the UP and was brought up with guns but was never taught anything on their use for defense. Well, nothing other then only point at things you want dead. So everyone should get full use of their right but there should be some incentive for having a bit of training.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Yooper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Houghton County, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    808

    Post imported post

    qqq1 wrote:
    Yes, yours would be better. While training should not be required to fully exercise your right, even I will admit it would be nice to know people actually know how to properly use their weapon. I'm from the UP and was brought up with guns but was never taught anything on their use for defense. Well, nothing other then only point at things you want dead. So everyone should get full use of their right but there should be some incentive for having a bit of training.
    Well, you were taught the basics. That's what I was taught as well, which translates into "Don't point at anything you don't want to destroy" in the rest of the country.
    Which, is one of the very basics of gun safety. If it's pointed somewhere where it won't do any damage, all kinds of bullets can come out of the thing and nobody will get hurt.

    I agree with you, that training is a must, but should not be government required. Perhaps local sportsmans groups could raffle off a new gun to all participants in a firearm safety course as incentive, something like that anyway.
    Rand Paul 2016

  17. #17
    Regular Member EM87's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Kalamazoo, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    987

    Post imported post

    I scanned this thread and didn't see this corrected, so I have to be the one to correct it. There is no 50% alcohol rule. It's the main source of revenue that's the issue. If a restaurant sells 45% alcohol, 40% food, and 15% other, alcohol is still the main source of income, meaning you can't CC there (you must OC with a CPL). The exact wording might be off, and I'm sure someone will correct me if it is, but there is no 50% rule.
    "You'll be walking along.. OC.. and you'll feel GREAT. You'll feel FREEEEE like 1776 kind of Free." -cscitney87

  18. #18
    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Lawrence, Michigan, United States
    Posts
    3,845

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    I scanned this thread and didn't see this corrected, so I have to be the one to correct it. There is no 50% alcohol rule. It's the main source of revenue that's the issue. If a restaurant sells 45% alcohol, 40% food, and 15% other, alcohol is still the main source of income, meaning you can't CC there (you must OC with a CPL). The exact wording might be off, and I'm sure someone will correct me if it is, but there is no 50% rule.
    Good point!! There is no 50% rule in MI and it is completely based on what % of profits com e from alcohol sales.

    Note you can call the establishment and ask them what % of sales come from alcohol... they will be able to tell you as people who have alcohol convictions have to ask as well. And it is a requirment of the Liquire Licence.
    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  19. #19
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    OKC, OK (Heading back to MI very soon - thank goodness)
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    EM87 wrote:
    I scanned this thread and didn't see this corrected, so I have to be the one to correct it. There is no 50% alcohol rule. It's the main source of revenue that's the issue. If a restaurant sells 45% alcohol, 40% food, and 15% other, alcohol is still the main source of income, meaning you can't CC there (you must OC with a CPL). The exact wording might be off, and I'm sure someone will correct me if it is, but there is no 50% rule.
    I was just about to clarify this point as well. Good job!
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
    Posts
    3,337

    Post imported post

    I did talk about the issue of "primary" source of income above, but it bears repeating.:?
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Battle Creek, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,157

    Post imported post

    DrTodd wrote:
    I did talk about the issue of "primary" source of income above, but it bears repeating.:?
    As did I

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. Thomas Paine

  22. #22
    Regular Member KittyBomb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    32

    Post imported post

    burgundyyears wrote:
    If a location is licensed by the state liquor board in any capacity, and you don't have a CPL, you can't OC there. Period. Yes, that means that many retail establishments are off limits for OC for non-CPL holders, no matter what alcohol they sell, how it's sold, or how much or how little it is of their business.
    Are any of the ones who are wanting to be the next Governor of Michigan able to do anything about maybe changing that to places that just serve alcohol rather than every retail outlet that sells packaged alcohol? How about anything going on in Lansing, is there anything at all being done to change that?

    Without a CPL that really limits the places I can go while OC'ing.
    I can't afford to get a CPL and I don't see that changing any time soon.
    It would be nice if they would change that. I don't go to bars, taverns or establishments that serve alcohol but I do shop for groceries and go to the neighbourhood Rite Aid and Walgreen's, it just seems almost every grocery store and drug store sells alcohol, discount stores too, Wal~Mart and the like.

    Or even better let people lawfully carry OC and CC without the permission slip.


  23. #23
    Regular Member JeffSayers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Do you really wanna go there with me?, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    629

    Post imported post

    I see many folks getting confused about the differences in rules for CPL vs non-CPL. I would suggest that a good way to go about the learning process is to first learn only the rules for non-cpl carry. Then after that is mastered go back and learn the rules of CPL carry that enhances your liberties. Trying to take in everything at once is a recipe for confusion.
    United we STAND!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Springfield Smitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    OKC, OK (Heading back to MI very soon - thank goodness)
    Posts
    296

    Post imported post

    Good point, Jeff. This is how I teach my CPL classes. I first cover the "PFZ" and then the "CFZ." Seems to help clear things up a bit.
    -U.S. Army Veteran (2002-2005) 11BVB4 (Infantry, Airborne, Ranger, some other stuff) SGT (E-5)
    -Public Service Professional - I've done it all: LEO, FF, and EMT
    -Certified NRA Instructor
    -CPL / CCW (whatever other acronym you can think of for carrying a concealed pistol) Instructor
    -Co-founder of OKOCA

    I am not an attorney. None of my statements should be accepted, nor are they intended to be offered, as legal advice or fact of law.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •