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Thread: Question: If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun....

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    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

    I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?

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    Break his thumb if he tries to take your gun, he won't want it anymore.

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    I would call that an assault on your person, and you not only are in the right to protect yourself, you are obligated to make sure you don't make your firearm available to anyone that you don't know their intentions or legal status.

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    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

    I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    You sure he wasn't security keeping an eye on you?

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    Il_Duce wrote:
    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

    I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    You sure he wasn't security keeping an eye on you?
    Coulda Been. If Best Buy security (as an example) was stupid enough to make a move to disarm me, what is my appropriate move? I don't want to shoot anyone, especially someone who is trying to make an honest days living...but where does it become a point of me standing my ground and not letting the pistol get away from me at any cost?

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    If someone tries to assault you and grab your gun, and we're talking about a person who poses a serious threat, not a senile and weak 95 year old or a toddler or something, someone who could fight you, that means you're fighting for your life at that point. If someone gets your gun, they can kill you. The appropriate response would depend on the exact situation, but it is fair to say that at that point you need to take the needed steps to survive.

    The only real exception is cops. Cops in some areas can be counted on to disarm you and harass you, particularly if you're on your own. And obviously, they're just trying to piss you off, not kill you.

    The problem with security guards is that they're often minimum wage earners with a high school education. If a security guard made a move for my gun, (which is something I've never seen or heard of, so keep in mind this is very hypothetical), I'd probably step back and draw on the idiot, maybe or maybe not pointing it at him, depending on how serious the guy was, and start screaming to call 911. When the police got there, I'd have my hands full for sure, but my side of it would be that the guy assaulted me, and that I wanted to press charges.
    Answer every question about open carry in Michigan you ever had with one convenient and free book- http://libertyisforeveryone.com/open-carry-resources/

    The complete and utter truth can be challenged from every direction and it will always hold up. Accordingly there are few greater displays of illegitimacy than to attempt to impede free thought and communication.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

    I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    To begin... kudos to you for having your situational awareness at a level to where you noticed the guy checking you out and his unusual behavior.

    Ok... once you knew the fellow was there and his intentions were suspect that same situational awareness should allow you to make darn sure he never gets close enough to you to make a move for your gun. If he had come near you can move away creating distance.

    Now... how about in a situation where someone does make a move for your gun? The best thing is to first have a holster that has an active (rather than just passive) retention system. Whether that active system is just a snap strap over the gun or some of the higher end holsters with a button to push... there are holsters out there that have something that needs to be done first or the gun won't come out. In my not so humble opinion anyone OCing needs to have a quality holster with some kind of retention system because without holster retention the gun can be simply pulled out. Ummm.... with some lower end holsters it might even fall out by itself.

    The second thing that an OCer needs is to practice keeping the gun in the holster while it is being grabbed. Yep, the safest place during a gun grab for the gun is right there in the holster... if you can keep it there.

    One technique is to use your strong hand (gun is carried on the strong side anyway) to grab the fellow's wrist/hand and jam it down into the gun and holster while turning your body into the fellow. Shoving the fellow's hand down keeps the gun from coming out while turning into the fellow also puts leverage onto the fellow's arm helping to keep the gun in the holster.

    If the fellow is grabbing the gun and you pull away from him.... you just helped him pull your gun out. Not good.

    There are other retention techniques out there... and a 'net search will likely turn up a few places to buy training DVDs for them.

    The good thing is that bad guys doing gun grabs on citizens is extremely rare. Criminals don't much care to engage an armed citizen. Criminals look to find easy prey... and an armed citizen is definately not easy prey.


    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Use whatever force necessary to prevent that from happening, including lethal force.

    If someone trys to take your weapon... it's soubtful they just want to look at it. First thing they will do is use it (on you most likely). Whatever their reason or motive... suspect the worst. It may be advisable in some instances to carry a sheath knife as a 'back-up' for such events. This is another reasonI carry cross-draw. at 10 O'Clock.

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    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    I do have a retention holster (Uncle Mikes), but it is passive retention. I have been interested in getting an active retention holster since my GF has the ability to draw my weapon out of passive retention with minimal training (unloaded of course). The Uncle Mikes also seems to stand out to the side a little far for what I optimally want.

    Again, thanks for the responses. I intentionally kept distance away from the guy who was eyeing me, my first concern is to be aware enough to not get into a confrontation.

    And Sonora Rebel, although I won't take your advice as the same from a lawyer, you are saying that if someone approaches me to disarm & ends up in a struggle for my gun, even a possibly well-intentioned security guard, that deadly force can be applied to prevent him from obtaining my gun? What about uniformed security in a shopping mall? I know I am getting into a whole range of hypotheticals here (how Local LE works, Prosecutors etc.), but can I, at any cost except to a Police Officer, use deadly force to prevent my gun from falling into the hands of someone else?

    Thanks again! Im really glad to be at this site!

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    Whatever manuver or method you use for firearms retention (use of force) keep it simple and painfull to the person that you are applying it to. Fancy drills and tactics take more training than you can fathom to maintain muscle memory (instinct). Remember when the other person made the choice to take your firearm, (By Mass. General Law) they have then commited, Assault and Battery With a Dangerous Weapon. YOURS !

    All data used for training has over the years said that if a person takes a firearm off you they will most likely use it on you. At least this is what the FBI reports are, in regards to police officers.

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    Spin around and let your weak side elbow find his body.

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    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?

    I am concerned because I noticed a guy checking me out at a store yesterday, and then over the next 15 minutes, he tried to stay at my 6 o'clock as much as he could. He didn't seem intimidated at it, and the look I saw in his eyes when he saw my gun was "I want that". If he had moved up behind me and placed his hand on the handle of my gun, I would break a few of his fingers pretty easily.....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    Describe the look, please. What, specfically indicated to you in his eyes that he "wanted" your gun?

    Also, if you were becoming concerned that he was going to do something to you, why wouldn't you simply turn around and say something like "Hey, brother, you've been staying right behind me for several steps. Can I help you somehow? If not, let me go on my way without you following me, 'K?"

    Also, how big was the guy? Compared to yourself?

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    I'm with HankT on this one, if you know someone is following you the best thing to start with is to let them know you are aware of what they are doing.

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    My perception was that the look hung too long. I can't exactly put my finger on what was creeping me out. I intentionally turned around to make eye contact numerous times as he checked out items about 20 feet behind me. The thing that got my attention was that after I turned around the first time to check my 6 and talk to my GF, he was there about 20 feet back, looking at my gun, but moving in the middle of the aisle with us. I went into the next section with my GF(washers & dryers), and leaned face-out on one while my GF looked around. The Guy was the next one to take the left into washers and dryers. I basically chilled there just observing, projecting the fact that I was aware of him. He left the section, but was still hanging a couple of aisles away, facing us when I walked out. We left after that for that reason. I wasn't, nor was my GF trying to force some sort of confrontation.

    He was a tall, gangly (not unlike myself), kinda scruffy guy. Not scruffy like a beard but had a very weathered face for what seemed to be his age. I took it as indicative of possible homelessness at one point. Dude looked rough.

    Im late for work, bye guys!

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    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?
    .....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    You can not draw to "protect your weapon". You should be drawing your pepper spray instead. You should be evading him instead.

    If you draw on someone, you are not merely brandishing.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Statkowski wrote:
    Spin around and let your weak side elbow find his body.
    If I am understanding you correctly you are saying that when the bad guy has his hand on your gun... say you are carrying on the right hip... to spin to your left and elbow the bad guy? Is that correct?

    If so please consider this.... if the bad guy has his hand on the gun... and you spin in a direction that pulls the gun away from the bad guy... as you spin away your hip pulls away pulling the holster away from the gun... and the gun stays in the bad guy's hand. Essentially, by spinning away, you have helped pull the gun out of the holster.

    Turning yourself to the strong side forces the bad guy's hand deeper into the holster... helping keep the gun in the holster. Also the leverage forced upon the bad guy's hand and arm as you turn into him tend to cause him to let go of the gun.

    What actions are taken after that are pretty much situationally based. If you can retain the gun and disengage and create distance... good. If you can't disengage then use what ever is necessary (slaps, pokes, punches) to inflict damage to create an opportunity to disengage.

    Retention techniques must be practiced in order for them to become somewhat "second nature".

    Relying on only the retention ability of even the most expensive and best holster without practicing retention techniques is a false sense of security.

    Oh yeah... if the bad guy does manage to get your gun away from you there is another "technique"....

    Bend over and kiss your arse goodbye.

    To everyone.....

    Please allow me to strongly suggest (according to your financial ability) looking into training classes.... or buying self defense DVDs... or surfing the 'net for anything and everything in relation to defending yourself with a gun. There is plenty of excellent information out there that everyone who carries a gun, openly or concealed, needs to know.

    Here is a website I put up a long time ago when I first began carrying.... although it is CC based it might be of some use....

    http://firearmselfdefense.bravehost.com/index.html
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Bikenut wrote:
    Statkowski wrote:
    Spin around and let your weak side elbow find his body.
    SNIP

    Oh yeah... if the bad guy does manage to get your gun away from you there is another "technique"....

    Bend over and kiss your arse goodbye.


    To everyone.....

    Please allow me to strongly suggest (according to your financial ability) looking into training classes.... or buying self defense DVDs... or surfing the 'net for anything and everything in relation to defending yourself with a gun. There is plenty of excellent information out there that everyone who carries a gun, openly or concealed, needs to know.
    Knowing this may help in that situation:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07jnqD8wvyE

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    AvianP wrote:
    Thanks for the responses, guys.

    I do have a retention holster (Uncle Mikes), but it is passive retention. I have been interested in getting an active retention holster since my GF has the ability to draw my weapon out of passive retention with minimal training (unloaded of course). The Uncle Mikes also seems to stand out to the side a little far for what I optimally want.

    Again, thanks for the responses. I intentionally kept distance away from the guy who was eyeing me, my first concern is to be aware enough to not get into a confrontation.

    And Sonora Rebel, although I won't take your advice as the same from a lawyer, you are saying that if someone approaches me to disarm & ends up in a struggle for my gun, even a possibly well-intentioned security guard, that deadly force can be applied to prevent him from obtaining my gun? What about uniformed security in a shopping mall? I know I am getting into a whole range of hypotheticals here (how Local LE works, Prosecutors etc.), but can I, at any cost except to a Police Officer, use deadly force to prevent my gun from falling into the hands of someone else?

    Thanks again! Im really glad to be at this site!

    If some yahoo Mall Ninja 'security guard' attempts to remove your firearm w/o first addressing you at all... 'seems to me that's A&B w/criminal intent. Thaty silly badge doesn't give him/her any siezure powers unless they put you under arrest... which is legit on the premises. Security guards are often only a step up from a french-fry flipper in smarts. Just for a quickie... the side of your boot into the shin 'ninstep... even a good stomp on the toes will effectively disengage most assailants who may otherwise absorb a body shot with an elbow or fist. For this reason I always 'dress to the gun'... no flip flops... tennies or 'beachwear'. The assailant will most always have the element of surprise... and you must REACT instantly... as savagely as possible. Get vicious. Most people are too 'civilized' to react in that manner... but ya gotta switch gears 'n fight. You'll have to FIGHT! You'll have to hurt your assailant instantly, anyway you can. I've been mugged... attempted mugging anyway (I was not armed.) It did not go well for the mugger.


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    Lone Star Veteran Ian's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    AvianP wrote:
    If I am OCing and someone makes a move for my gun, what are my legal responses. Can I unholster my weapon to protect it w/o being charged with brandishing?
    .....but the question remains. If someone lunges at my pistol, what can I do to protect it and me?
    You can not draw to "protect your weapon". You should be drawing your pepper spray instead. You should be evading him instead.

    If you draw on someone, you are not merely brandishing.
    You can't be serious. Protecting your weapon IS protecting your life. You bet your ass that if someone trying to get your weapon from you (Non LE) it is a THREAT TO YOUR LIFE. If someone reaches and tries to grab my pistol, I can clearly present a case that I was in fear of my life. Now, they might choose to cease being a threat when they are faced with the possibility of "lead poisoning," so lethal force may not be necessary once I re-assess the situation. Of course, I carry in a level 3 Serpa, I doubt anyone trying to take my gun could even figure out how to get it out of the holster.

    On another note, if you're carrying a gun and you're not a police officer I wouldn't suggest carrying anything else such as a taser or pepper spray. If you do end up having to use deadly force, you could have some trouble in court and the jury could be made to believe that you wanted to kill the perp because you had other non-lethal means to defend yourself.

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    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Ian wrote:
    You can't be serious. Protecting your weapon IS protecting your life. You bet your ass that if someone trying to get your weapon from you (Non LE) it is a THREAT TO YOUR LIFE. If someone reaches and tries to grab my pistol, I can clearly present a case that I was in fear of my life. Now, they might choose to cease being a threat when they are faced with the possibility of "lead poisoning," so lethal force may not be necessary once I re-assess the situation. Of course, I carry in a level 3 Serpa, I doubt anyone trying to take my gun could even figure out how to get it out of the holster.

    On another note, if you're carrying a gun and you're not a police officer I wouldn't suggest carrying anything else such as a taser or pepper spray. If you do end up having to use deadly force, you could have some trouble in court and the jury could be made to believe that you wanted to kill the perp because you had other non-lethal means to defend yourself.
    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.
    Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.



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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Carnivore wrote:
    I would call that an assault on your person, and you not only are in the right to protect yourself, you are obligated to make sure you don't make your firearm available to anyone that you don't know their intentions or legal status.
    Having the right to protect yourself and having the justification to use deadly force are 2 different animals.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Sonora Rebel's Avatar
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    Interceptor_Knight wrote:
    .

    Sonora Rebel wrote:
    Pepper Spray?Get serious! Defensive display is recognized most places... 'n the next step is to shoot the SOB. If you cannot DO that... don't carry a gun.
    Do you guys actually think these things through? How about defensive scenerio training? What do you plan to do when the scenerio does not justify deadly force? Youcannot justify "defensive display" of a firearmas some lower level of self defense. This implies that you are prepared to use deadly force and you must be in a situation where this deadly force can be justified. It is all wonderful and great that you are carrying and are prepared to shoot someone, butyou had better be prepared to defend your actions in court. If you can not justify deadly force, you are screwed. Pepper Spray gives you a less than lethal option when deadly force is not justified.

    If somebody's trying to take your gun... you have every justifiable right to kill 'em if that's what it takes to stop 'em. Now you can wander around with a belt fulla ninja gadgets... 'n ahead fulla imaginary what-if scenarios,but I just carry a pistol. If someone tries to take that pistol... I'm gonna seriously ruin their day or die in the attempt. You do not surrender the pistol... You do not play games... While you're fartin' around with a spray can you're just as likely toget ventilated with your own gun. While you're all worried up about Court... the perp is gonna do you. You're talkin' in 'seconds'... fractions of seconds to make decisions. I already know I'm a junk yard dog. BTDT!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. If you are a Junk Yard Dog, then you certainly do not need to draw your weapon if all someone is doing is lunging for it......

    A gun is a tool. You should have more tools that just a gun at your disposal. You are apparently more eager to spend time in prison than am I.....

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    Realistically speaking in this situation the OP was aware he was being eyeballed and should have met any lunge head on with his gun hip turned back away from attack. IF someone does manage to get a hand on your gun the easiest defense is to seize hold of their thumb and bend it sharply toward them while holding downward pressure against your holster (think peeling). You will quickly break or at least dislocate the thumb and not only will they probably lose all interest in your gun they likely won't even be able to grab it with that hand.

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